Becoming a Licensed Electrician

[Edrick]

I'm wondering if it's worth becoming a Licensed Electrician on top of working in the entertainment industry. Here's what I want to do entertainment side is be a best boy electric / gaffer or who ever does the tie ins, electrical distro at concerts etc... But I also want to be able to do installations of audio video and electrical systems for entertainment venues.

So my question to you guys is would working on getting your electrical license be a hindrance to making it in the industry, since you have to take almost four years of classes and start as an apprentice working under another company or is it a benefit.

[Toffee]

If you want to be part of a road crew who travels with the band then I would say you don't need it and to just start working at a place like PRG, etc. If you want to be an inhouse tech who just ties in feeder and such my old union ME just had a eletronics degree and that was it.

So either way in my opinion I do not think it is necessary.

[Edrick]

I plan on working out of New England and working on feature film / television sets or one day move to the west coast. I know you don't need to be an electrician to work on these sets however a lot of the stupidity I've seen people doing as Best Boy Electric makes me wonder. I plan on working with generators, power distro, tie ins, etc... is what I'd like to learn about.

[Footer]

This has come up in the past, do some searches and you should come up with some stuff.

Working towards you ETCP might be a better goal and more attainable in 4 years then going an electrician route. If you want an electrician's license, there is much more that goes into it that is way beyond what you need in our industry. When my father was in school to be an electrcian, he had to learn how to hand wind a 5hp motor. They still do that in some places. Along with that, you will spend a lot of time bending conduit, doing residential power, working with motor control, and also doing low voltage stuff like telephone systems. Its all great stuff, but its not stuff you will ever need. Your better off to just start working and learn as you go. Ask questions. Keep your eyes open. If a venue does require an IBEW person to come in and tie-in, they would have to be a member of the local union anway so its not like you would be losing any work anyway. Also, with the modern times of company switches and cams, tie-ins are much safer. You can learn what you need to learn about working without shore power as you go through your career. Right now, aim for ETCP and go from there. If you want a backup career, go to school to become an electrician.

[Edrick]

That's the big thing is it'd be a good backup and I love doing electrical, low voltage, fire alarm systems. It's been a big killer with deciding on a career, because I haven't been able to say for sure I want to do XYZ for the rest of my life. I'd love to own my own sound stage or theater venue what have you. I love doing construction, electrical, special effects, film. It's such a pain to try and be dead set on one thing. I was thinking of ETCP which I had posted about on here before. I may have even asked this inside of that topic.

I'd love to be the guy building out big venues running the low voltage and power systems in which case I'd need to be licensed. But then the question is will that set me back too much in entertainment if I work to get my electrical license.

[FMEng]

In some states, to become a licensed electrician requires apprenticing for a couple of years. It takes a lot more than passing a test.

As for doing show venue construction, that work goes to any qualified electrical contractor. It isn't a trade specialty, so the odds of landing on a job like that are slim to none.

[Edrick]

In some states, to become a licensed electrician requires apprenticing for a couple of years. It takes a lot more than passing a test.

As for doing show venue construction, that work goes to any qualified electrical contractor. It isn't a trade specialty, so the odds of landing on a job like that are slim to none.

The requirement here is 6,000 hours plus 600 educational hours. Also I know an EC doesn't build venues. I'm saying I'd love to be apart of that process.

[Arez]

I'd love to be the guy building out big venues running the low voltage and power systems in which case I'd need to be licensed. But then the question is will that set me back too much in entertainment if I work to get my electrical license.

I think that answered your question. If you want to be building out venues, you will probably need your license and to be lucky, that said, you're not going to be able to live off of building out venues, but if you went to eventually go work for a design firm, I suppose it's possible eventually. You'd have to either get your license and keep up with it working as a regular electrician or find another way to keep up with it or take it and then go for your ETCP.

Going the latter route will probably take you twice as long. Right now with your BOS you get 7 points, plus whatever else you can document from entertainment electrical work, which leaves you needing ~23 points (depending on what you can verify already). Getting those 23 points could take you anywhere from 2-5 years depending on what your work situation is like, and what the job availability where you are is.

If you go the other route and get your Journeyman's License it'll take you about 4 years (based on my current location last time I checked). The other part of this is that there is, usually, a wait list for apprentices (last time I looked where I was, it was 6-12 months, but there are ways to fast track that a little with tech schools from what I heard). Four years later you'll have 7 points, but (from my understanding) you won't be able to use any of the hours you worked as they, probably, don't fall under entertainment electrical work experience, and I believe that would be the same for apprenticeship hours (that it has to be in the entertainment sector). Can someone verify or refute this for us?

If that is the case you will now need to pull in 16 points of entertainment work experience when you are done, which depending on job availability (and your availability) could be another 1-4 years. However, one would think that having your Journeyman's license would be killer on a resume if you were able to stay at least semi-active in the entertainment industry while you were getting it.

Bottom line, if my interpretations of the ETCP requirements are correct, you're looking at approx. 2-4 years or approx. 4-8 years.

I would say the best choice is whichever you have a better feeling for. You know the market in your area for entertainment work and licensed work, if the market isn't large enough and you don't plan on moving to suit the needs of the first, go for the latter. If you are willing to move, or believe the market where you are can support it, go ETCP. If you want a career to fall back on, that should be your choice.

Not letting yourself get set back behind everyone else, is all dependent on how much entertainment work you could do while working towards your license. You may end up being the guy that was frozen for a few years, or you could stay perfectly up to date by reading the mags, talking shop, staying on the forums, and still doing some industry work. It is up to you to not let yourself become dated.

[Footer]

Call your local IBEW hall if you are interested. When I worked for an electrical contractor years back, they still brought in apprentices and the union taught classes. Some unions still do it, some don't. Can't hurt to make the call. You can pick up some work in the areas you are interested. If the hall has everyone out, they will put you out as well.

[museav]

I think that answered your question. If you want to be building out venues, you will probably need your license and to be lucky, that said, you're not going to be able to live off of building out venues, but if you went to eventually go work for a design firm, I suppose it's possible eventually. You'd have to either get your license and keep up with it working as a regular electrician or find another way to keep up with it or take it and then go for your ETCP.

There are many people who make a living as or with E.C.s including some without licenses while working for a design firm would usually relate more to being a licensed Professional Engineer in Electrical Engineering or other design related certifications than to any contracting licenses.

I am glad to see a discussion that addresses the separation of entertainment electrical systems design and installation from building electrical systems design and installation as these are two different areas of practice. Similar for the differentiation between electrical systems and low voltage systems as those can also be two quite different areas. Going even further, many aspects of 'low voltage' aren't necessarily applicable to entertainment applications, there are many low voltage system designers and contractors who work with access control systems, building management systems, life safety systems, networks, etc.

I think there are a numerous potential variables involved. The reality is that someone could be a licensed Electrical Engineer, licensed Electrical Contractor, licensed low voltage Contractor, IBEW member, etc. and yet have very limited knowledge and experience related to entertainment applications. I routinely work with EEs and ECs that build and design entertainment venues but that have no idea of how to design or install the lighting, audio, AV, show control, etc, systems within those venues. Conversely, I've worked with entertainment technology systems designers that have no concept of how to design and install building electrical systems or other low voltage systems. This does not make any of these bad at or less qualified for their jobs, it simply means they limit themselves to specific areas of practice (and hopefully recognize and understand that).

On the install side, the necessity or value of being an IBEW member can vary from state to state and it may have much less value in a 'right to work' state. Licensing can also vary, some states may have Electrical Contractor licensing but no low voltage licensing, some states may have both low voltage and Electrical Contractor licensing but automatically grant an EC a low voltage license while other states may approach the Electrical Contractor and Low Voltage Contractor licenses as two independent licenses. While having a low voltage license can be beneficial, in regards to installing audio and AV systems it may not matter as much as some other certifications and relevant experience. Also, as others have said, a lot of what you'd be doing on the EC route is installing pipe and boxes.

For some specific examples of how these factors may come into play, in some geographic ares it is standard practice for a union EC to install all basic electrical systems infrastructure including the low voltage wiring and to oversee any low voltage work. In those situations you are much more likely to find employees of Electrical Contractors who are qualified to work with low voltage cabling and connections and for the unions to support related training. In other areas low voltage systems are approached as totally separate from electrical systems and you may find ECs who generally have little or no background or training in low voltage systems. You also unfortunately find situations such as Electrical Contractors that are 'grandfathered' as low voltage contractors without having to show any related knowledge or ability and union projects that require union 'oversight' of or involvement in work for which the related union members have no no training or experience, neither of which usually benefits the work.

The bottom line is that you may at least initially have to pick an area in which to focus as it would require significant time and training to pursue the related certification and licensing in the multiple different areas involved.

[FMEng]

When we built a new building for our radio station, the low voltage contractor was a sub to the electrical contractor. That seems to be a common way to handle it in this state.

[Edrick]

Here in MA you don't need to be licensed to do Low Voltage Com wiring (Data, Audio, Voice, Video) but you do need to be licensed to do Security, Surveillance and Fire. Then on top of that you have your Electrical License requirements if you want to do Line Voltage or all of the bellow. However the big problem, I've been offered multiple jobs doing LV wiring which requires no license, however the electrical contractors like to rag on them quite a bit as they feel that it's a loophole in the system. Which really it isn't they've just got their buns in a twist because LV work doesn't require a license.

[museav]

Here in MA you don't need to be licensed to do Low Voltage Com wiring (Data, Audio, Voice, Video) but you do need to be licensed to do Security, Surveillance and Fire. Then on top of that you have your Electrical License requirements if you want to do Line Voltage or all of the bellow. However the big problem, I've been offered multiple jobs doing LV wiring which requires no license, however the electrical contractors like to rag on them quite a bit as they feel that it's a loophole in the system. Which really it isn't they've just got their buns in a twist because LV work doesn't require a license.

We used to run into projects here where even though the state has a low voltage license, many projects did not require a licensed Contractor to perform the work, however they did require one to pull the permit.

What gets me about situations like the one you noted is ECs that look down on unlicensed low voltage Contractors while not having any problem with their being granted a low voltage license even if they are not qualified and don't have any idea of the related industry standard practices.

This really hit home for me on a very small project where the EC tried doing all the low voltage cabling. They didn't have the proper tools or parts and it was clear that no one they had on site had any relevant experience or training but they proceeded anyways. The result was that despite some of the wiring did not work and most of it being very obviously poorly terminated, they tried to tell the Client that was accepted practice. It was real easy to show that it was not accepted practice and they finally got a qualified low voltage installer involved.

[Edrick]

Electricians drive me up a wall and a lot of times are very hard headed. I know many jobs where an EC as royally messed up the wiring job. But they see it as "low voltage is for babies" it doesn't kill it's not dangerous so why do you need to know anything about it? They're also usually quite sour that they spent years going to school and getting low pay where as a lot of Low Voltage guys are getting double what they make.

Your typical Electrical Apprentice around here gets 12 an hour. I've been offered multiple jobs at $20/hour doing low voltage work unlicensed as we're not required to be licensed.

They also flip when anyone does their own electrical work, but they're plumbers, HVAC Technicians, Carpenters, Sheetrockers and 20 other things since it's "so simple to do" as they put it.

[AlPal]

After reading some of these posts I figured this might be just the place to ask regarding low voltage licensing. I would like to thank all of you in advance for your knowledge and time. My dad has worked in the low voltage industry as a technician for 32yrs and he taught me quite a few things along the way. After high school and during college I would do side jobs by myself and sometimes with my dad doing low voltage installations of cctv & home theater. I also worked as a subcontractor for several other firms installing people counter devices in retail outfits to keep busy. I have recently graduated college and the little side jobs have turned into a lot of referrals and essentially a drive for something I would like to do as a legitimate business. I have looked into the licensing requirements in the sate of Minnesota, which is where I live and you need 3 years of experience in order to apply to take the exam. I have well over 3 years, but I am afraid that it's not valid enough since I worked as a subcontractor and not as an actual employee. Another option would be for my dad to take the test, but his first language is Russian and although he is more then qualified the repetitive questions worded differently confuse him and have caused him to fail the test in the future. If only it could be translated for him better this issue could be solved. Since I seem to be getting backed into a corner regarding being able to start a business with a legitimate license, insurance, etc. I am seeking alternative solutions to my problem... If any. I have considered hiring a licensed electrician, but I don't know how they would feel having the business under there license or is that standard practice? I have also begun thinking about starting the business in a state which doesn't require a low voltage license such as Iowa, but would this also allow me to do business in Minnesota and other states as I plan to do in the future? I would like to thank you for your time in reading this and to any type of feedback you give back.

[museav]

AlPal, it sounds like you're trying to start a business but it is not clear what type of business or the market you plan to serve.

It looks like Minnesota is pretty strict in terms of requiring licensed low voltage technicians and contractors for most projects. From what I can tell, an individual would need to be a licensed Power Limited Technician while a company would need to be a licensed Technology Systems Contractor for which a responsible licensed Power Limited Technician must be identified. So you could apparently start a Technology Systems Contractor company with an employee being the responsible licensed Power Limited Technician, but the understandably might want to have significant control over the work for which they are responsible and once you started the company they may be in a very dominant position in any negotiations.

Your experience does bring up an interesting point as it seems to reflect the issue that valid work experience for licensing or certification usually occurs under the 'direct supervision and control' of a licensed and/or qualified party, however if you were under someone else's direct control then you would likely be considered an employee and not an independent subcontractor.

Also, if you offer professional design or contracting services in a state that requires licensing for that work then you typically have to be licensed to practice in those areas in that state. In some cases a licensed party in one state may be able to apply for reciprocity in other states, but that is not always supported.

I would call the related Board and discuss this with them, they have to follow the rules since they are legislation but they are sometimes very helpful in helping interpret the rules or pointing you in the right direction. I know that when the companies I worked for did projects in other states that required licensing we had to either obtain licenses or in many cases were allowed to 'ride' on the EC's license by being identified as a subcontractor contracted to them.