Electric Winch VS Counter Weight Rigging

[MikeyHP]

I use a Electric Winch system in my PAC and love it... It can Have cues set in it and I can control the rise and lower speeds. I have never delt with counter weight systems and was wondering what every one else prefered.

[Footer]

Most people will say if you can install a winch system that has high speeds lines with the same accuracy and speed as a counterweight system they will do it. However, installing 90 winched linesets on 6" centers is not an easy thing to do. If I ever get to build my new theatre, and thats a big if, I will be pushing very heavily for a winched system due to safety factors. Now, if you have an install of utility winches that move at 15' a minute then that is useless. In the 70's, mixed systems of "lighting bridges" on winches and standard linesets were common. I don't think too many people will argue with winched electrics. However, winched linesets for scenery if done wrong can cost 4x as much as a standard lineset and make the space 10x less usuable.

[MikeyHP]

The arcitect for my school must have not thought through the design process for my school... our procenium is 16' tall and the distance to the top of the tower is 32'....

[kiwitechgirl]

If you can get a system that's as good as the one in the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden, then yes. But there's one recently been installed in a refurbished venue not far from here and it's useless as the winches which have been installed are designed to lift heavy loads at low speed, rather than flying scenery in and out. It's fine for the electrics bars, but what a waste of money for everything else, and they've gone back to how they used to do things before the refurb - flying scenery on handlines. On the flip side, several other venues have had single-purchase counterweight systems installed recently as part of their refurbs and everyone is very, very happy with the results. I'd never go double-purchase though, having worked in a few double-purchase houses; too much of a drag not being able to fly from the floor if you want to (all the new single-purchase systems being installed around this neck of the woods have the ability to move the brake rail from deck to gallery if you want to), and having to load double the weight is of course a pain. Personally I'd rather be dealing with counterweights because it just seems to me that a really good flyman can be in sync with the show in a way that automated flying can't.

[Footer]

Originally Posted by kiwitechgirl

Personally I'd rather be dealing with counterweights because it just seems to me that a really good flyman can be in sync with the show in a way that automated flying can't.

At the same time another argument can be made. Rigging companies are beginning to advertise how unsafe counterweight rigging is. When that is done, clients are starting to look to other options to get scenery in the air. Unfortunately, this means many venues are getting low speed winches to haul scenery. However, they are getting a much safer system. There is nothing worse then having to bull line in or out a huge wall with 20 of your closest friends. With a counterweight system you have the risk of a runaway, you have twice or somethings 3x the amount of the load hanging over your head.

Both systems have their flaws, but for the safety factor I will go with winches every time. I am going to be interested to see what happens in this area in the next 20 years.

[sk8rsdad]

We have low speed utility winches and opted for that approach for both cost and safety, being an amateur, all-volunteer community theatre. We don't fly much in the way of scenery, in part because productions that might benefit from that style of staging aren't our typical repertoire. On the very rare occasion we need to fast fly a drop we will hang pulleys and a secondary batten off one of the winched battens and use the hemp and sandbag method, or rig a kubuki drop, or fly horizontally.

As for the cost of electric winches versus counterweight rigging, in order to retrofit our space for a single purchase system it meant raising the roof to provide space for a fly loft. While the footings and steelwork were originally designed to accommodate the loft, the cost to renovate the structure more than offset the cost of motorizing. In our space we were looking at about $8,000 CDN per line for a counterweight system plus about $750,000K in structural changes versus $13,000 per line for line-shaft winches.

If I were doing it from scratch and had an unlimited budget, I would opt for high speed electric winches over a counterweight system, knowing the calibre of people likely to be using it. Whichever system you opt for, please remember to factor regular inspections into your operating budget.

[Chris Chapman]

I have a 30 line, single purchase set in my space which we maintain nicely. My question for the winch houses is all about maintenance. Does the install company have to maintain the motors, or does the in house staff do it? The mechanical maintenance of the winch systems seems to be the only fly in the ointment of winch systems. That fly being in educational spaces you may have unqualified folks maintaining the motors. Of course you can have the exact same problem in a counter-weight space too.

[Footer]

Most places I have worked in with winches an outside company maintains them. One venue had an electric with a bad brake that would keep the electric from moving half the time. All winch systems are designed to fail safe, so you never have an issue with something moving out of control. If it is broken, it does not move at all. Maintenance is an issue with these systems. There is a lot more to go wrong, but at the same time you need two less guys at load in/out.

I see winches kind of like an elevator. It takes a specialized person to maintain these systems. Most venues are used to have elevator inspections, this falls in the same category.

[Sayen]

I have an electric system, which is great with students. Complete lock out abilities, much safer, and much faster. Not to mention, I no longer have to climb up to the loading gallery every day to check arbors when students are finished. For community and educational theater, I'd go electric.

For professional, it's a tough call. The downside is that when the computer or motors decide not to work, the rigging won't move at all. During a recent strike one pipe decided not to fly out, so we had to load out around a stuck pipe. I've had several problems with mine, and while the company is great and very fast at addressing problems, a stuck pipe the day of a show would be a disaster.

[iLightTheStage]

This reminds me of my theater back in high school: two counterweights downstage on the newer stage extension, and all of upstage electrics were winch. However, it was a handheld winch motor, and would take 10 minutes to get a batten to working height, 15 minutes to raise it back out... and the noise was deafening. Even better is when the motor would break, and you'd have to spend the next 30-45 minutes with the hand crank.