Fire Retardant Potpourri...

[gafftaper]

So another thread someone posted that they used plastic sheeting which was labeled as fire retardant on a show and the fire marshall threatened to shut them down. Not only did they have to remove the sheeting but also paint fire retardant on the flats and floor.

This got me thinking that we need a good discussion on the topic.

Fire Retardant Muslin or not for flats? Does Latex paint make it more or less fire retardant? What about the Rosco stuff?

What about painting fire retardant on wood set pieces, flats, floors, etc? When do you ALWAYS use fire retardant? When do you not worry about it much?

[gafftaper]

Answering my question:

When it comes to muslin, I've been told the paint itself becomes a fire retardant. I've also been told the paint destroys the fire retardant in the muslin. I don't know if either is true so I buy fire retardant muslin just to be extra sure... but I'm always suspicious that I'm wasting money.

The only time I've worried about flame retarding hard flats or other wooden elements of the set is the two shows I've done that used a flash pot. Other than that I've never worried about it that much. Is that a bad thing?

[Logos]

I guess our rules are probably different (they usually are) but we can buy what is called "class A fire retardent timber". Now if you believe that I have a great bridge to sell you over in Sidney. It used to belong to my Grandma who only used it on Sundays.
I once demonstrated to a Fire Marshall that it burnt with the application of a cigarette lighter for a few minutes and then cntinued to smoulder he said "It's Fire Retardent, it says so." and wandered off.
I always belived that acrylic paint increased the fire resistance of timber without any additional chemicals but that canvas and so on needed extra.

[derekleffew]

Two things I've learned:

1) In fabrics, IFR is always better, and the extra expense, if any, is easily offset by the labor&materials cost to DIY.

2) I was always told that the pesticides used to treat erosion cloth, (you know the jute/hemp product woven into about 1" holes, probably replaced by a plastic product these days), made it flame retardant. Totally untrue, as I discovered in the worst way possible when a flashpot caught the witch's well on fire during Hansel & Gretel, before a live audience full of kids, in a 200-seat black box theatre. Mind you, this was 26 years ago and I'm much wiser now, to the extent I won't go near pyro without a licensed pyrotechnician present.

3) Okay, three. The Dept. Chair of my college theatre used to sneak up behind every new Stage Manager backstage during a quiet part of the show and say "Don't move, don't turn around. Tell me exactly where every fire extinguisher within 50' is, and what type it is." Those who failed got a long lecture after the show. Even today, when I take someone new up to our catwalks, I point out the alternate exits and fire extinguishers.

[Charc]

Originally Posted by derekleffew

Two things I've learned:
1) In fabrics, IFR is always better, and the extra expense, if any, is easily offset by the labor&materials cost to DIY.
2) I was always told that the pesticides used to treat erosion cloth, (you know the jute/hemp product woven into about 1" holes, probably replaced by a plastic product these days), made it flame retardant. Totally untrue, as I discovered in the worst way possible when a flashpot caught the witch's well on fire during Hansel & Gretel, before a live audience full of kids, in a 200-seat black box theatre. Mind you, this was 26 years ago and I'm much wiser now, to the extent I won't go near pyro without a licensed pyrotechnician present.
3) Okay, three. The Dept. Chair of my college theatre used to sneak up behind every new Stage Manager backstage during a quiet part of the show and say "Don't move, don't turn around. Tell me exactly where every fire extinguisher within 50' is, and what type it is." Those who failed got a long lecture after the show. Even today, when I take someone new up to our catwalks, I point out the alternate exits and fire extinguishers.

I point out the highest places, as I've always heard they're best for committing suicide:

"If you're trying to focus one of these lights *indicates 1KL6* you might as well go over there *indicates highest point* and jump off."

[David Ashton]

I have a standard test for flame retardants, which is the test in the relevant standard.Apply a lighter to the cloth/scenery for 15 seconds, if it catches fire it fails, if it smoulders and smokes a bit but does not catch alight it passes.While a flame retardation label is mandatory there are domestic levels which are lower than theatre ones.We once had a Council who brought in some cloth to make some curtains and were certified fire retarded but the cloth burnt quite well, so a flame test is the only real way to test stuff.

[Drmafreek]

Originally Posted by Logos

I guess our rules are probably different (they usually are) but we can buy what is called "class A fire retardent timber". Now if you believe that I have a great bridge to sell you over in Sidney. It used to belong to my Grandma who only used it on Sundays.
I once demonstrated to a Fire Marshall that it burnt with the application of a cigarette lighter for a few minutes and then cntinued to smoulder he said "It's Fire Retardent, it says so." and wandered off.
I always belived that acrylic paint increased the fire resistance of timber without any additional chemicals but that canvas and so on needed extra.

Everything I've learned tells me that what you had is Fire Retardant material. Fire Retardant material is not fire proof. If a flame is held to it, it should burn. But once the active flame is removed, then the fire will stop, you might get a little smoke and a bit of charring, but it will not flame up.

Now, moving on to Flame Retardant Muslin. It is better to purchase Non-Flame Retardant Muslin, paint it, then Flame Retard it with chemicals you can buy from most theatrical supply places. When you paint over the retardant, two things can happen. It can affect the color of your paint, and if you're using a sufficient watered down version of paint, you may start to remove the retardant as well.

Paint helps a little bit, but it's not a true retardant. Now, as far as use, whenever pyro is in use around set pieces, then retardant should be used, proven many years ago by my undergrad professor when we were doing a version of Cyrano de Bergerac. We had flash pots go off in the scene and several borrowed pieces decided to catch fire. Next thing you see is the crew running on stage with fire extinguishers. Because they were borrowed, the TD chose not to retard them, and it was proven to be the wrong choice.

But you learn a little bit each year ya get older. That man is now the head of a department and continues to do well. Hope I helped a bit.

[icewolf08]

The simple way to ease worries is to use Rosco FlameX P50. It comes in little bottles that you mix directly into your paint, it is not supposed to affect any colors you may have mixed, and you use one bottle of flamex to one gallon of paint. This creates a fire retardant coating when you paint. There are three other flamex types that you can use for treating raw materials, you can read about them .

As for pyro type situations, flame retardant generally isn't enough to pass the fire marshal's inspection. Most of the time if you are using open flame, even a candle you need to have some form for flame-proof flashing like a sheet of metal

[gafftaper]

So you have your non flame retardant muslin covered flats. How about if you use the rosco flamex in the paint you use for the initial sizing of the drop... sounds like a good idea to me. The show is done and the flat goes back to storage. Next time you get it out for a show and repaint do you use a new layer of Rosco flamex treated paint? What about those flats that have been used in a dozen shows? Anyone ever been threatened by the fire marshall for not treating the back side of a hard flat?

[Drmafreek]

Gaff, both good questions, and ones I don't know about. Something I'm gonna have to look into though. As far as not treating the back side of hard flats I know that when I was in a grad school we back painted everything for fear of the almighty marshall. And never had a problem when he came and looked at things.