Altman Phoenix

[dvsDave]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Altman Phoenix.

[techieman33]

To bad they don't actually have any info on their website. I am interested though since I'm not a big fan of the source 4, and we really need to update our inventory.

[SteveB]

I found it funny to think the rep. tells us to go to the website, yet they have not as yet added the fixture to the website. Typical Altman.

My thoughts:

- The Shakespeare is 4" longer then the S4. That's huge and can be a PITA when installing in trusses. The Phoenix is an inch shorter, so no real improvement.

- It takes an HPL, which may well save the fixture, PROVIDED they can handle 750 watts. My experiences with Altman is they "say" 750 or 1000 for their stuff, but the parts don't hold up. In any event, I have many problems with Osram/Sylvania TP22 type sockets AND Osram GLC lamps making poor contact and am glad to have "donated" my Shakespeares to the Theater Det so I don't have to deal with them anymore.

- I wonder if they still have the lens in the gate ?. The lens that is nearly impossible to get to to clean.

- The locking shutter assembly seems like a nice concept. But only useful on long run shows and I've never had problems with slipping shutters on my S4's.

- From the video is appears they enlarged the standard gobo slot, which is good, as on the Shakespeare the slot is too tight and makes insertion of gobo's difficult.

- I'm not sure I like the enclosed color frame holder. Makes it easier to stand on end and not fall over. I hope they made the slots possibly an 1/8" larger then 6.25", to allow other then OEM gear to fit easily. I also hope the top door is not spring loaded, though it appeared not.

- If it's the same price as an S4, why bother ?. No the S4 is not perfect, but it's the most common unit out there at this point and that has a weight all it's own.

[Les]

I think it looks pretty slick. The rear housing is almost a 360Q throwback. I see that they also implemented some of the best qualities of the Strand SL with the 360 degree rotation and enclosed color frame holder. I always liked the 360 degree continuous rotation on the Strand SL, but never was crazy about its implementation. It looks like Altman's setup is better designed. The fully-enclosed front end never gave me trouble on the Strand SL, and it made loading color frames easier. You don't have to worry about missing one of the color frame runners and dropping the frame to the floor. I am with Steve on hoping there are some wider tolerances, though.

It appears that they have duplicate knobs on top and bottom for focus and body rotation. If so, that's a nice touch. No switching knobs around based on your preference and hanging position.

The shutter locks may be a good thing in practice for someone clumsy like me. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally bumped the shutter of an adjacent fixture when focusing high density rigs.

All-in-all, I think there's a market. If it actually sells for $20 cheaper than the competition, that could be a deciding factor for some low-budget companies. It's hard to improve on the Source Four, but I'm glad someone is at least trying without completely knocking it off.

[gafftaper]

The real question to me is the optics. If they really are better than S4 then this could be a really strong contender.

The most interesting thing to me is the choice of name. Is it rising from the flaming ashes of the Shakespeare? That's an odd thing for a manufacturer to imply about a past product.

[jglodeklights]

Strand Lekolite makes some major advances to the Source 4 ERS, countering their assertion there have been no major advancements made. At least a year before the Phoenix. Better bench system, short or long yoking built in, lens is better yet (the Altman looks like it still sucks) and way lighter. The Phoenix ix still heavy, long and appears to have a crappy tilt system.

[derekleffew]

Seems to me like Altman ran out of things to copy from the Source Four (other than the HPL lamp, does this mean the patent has expired?), so they are now copying features from the SL/Lekolite/SPX lines.

• 360° barrel rotation: I don't see why this is needed. The 45° on either side of center has always been enough for me. If a gobo is upside-down, I would never dream of rotating the entire fixture. What keep the gobo or rotator from falling out?
• Locking shutters: Never needed it. Just another thing to break. I've never had a shutter move due to heating cooling. One of the European manufacturers (CCT, ADB, Neithammer?) once had a profile spot that used a removable shutter cassette for repertory situations; I'm not sure how successful that idea was; it probably cost too much.
• Zero light leakage: A benefit in some situations, but I have to think it comes with a cost--decreased ventilation. Nothing that can't be solved, where necessary, with some Blacktak and/or Blackwrap.
• Thumbscrews on the iris slot: I suspect these would get too hot to use bare-handed. What electrician doesn't carry a Leatherman/Gerber with Phillips bit?
• 36/26/19° vs. 40/30/20°: I'm kind of disappointed Altman has acquiesced on this point. Why are we still using sizes based on obsolete 6x9/6x12/6x16 s? To me, it further reinforces the popularity and ubiquitous-ness of the first fixture to use those denominations.

I've never seen a touring group use a Strand/Selecon ERS. Only once did I have an A/V company bring Shakespeares. I suspect it will be long time, if ever, before I see an Altman Phoenix in the wild.

[MPowers]

I haven't actually seen or touched the new Altman unit, so I don't know yet if I'm a fan or not. But, just for the sake of discussion, I thought I'd comment on a couple of Derekleffew's points.

360° barrel rotation: I don't see why this is needed. .....If a gobo is upside-down, I would never dream of rotating the entire fixture. What keep the gobo or rotator from falling out?

I have experienced cases, especially in small, tight, ill designed side wall light ports, where at least a 90 degree rotation is a good thing. No electrician would rotate the barrel to flip a gobo, but I can imagine a scenario where a 180 rotation would be desired to KEEP the slot on top. IMHO the 360 thing is just a advertising gimmick and my engineering sense says that once you have made rotation possible, limiting it is more work and tooling than just allowing full rotation.

Locking shutters: Never needed it. Just another thing to break. I've never had a shutter move due to heating cooling....

Don't know about legit theatre on long running shows, but we have had clients in museums and movie theatre lobby displays ask for custom gobos to replace shutters due to drift over time. In these instances the light is usually tight cut on a display, work of art or exhibit area and the light fixture is hung in a very difficult to get-at location.

Zero light leakage: ......have to think it comes with a cost--decreased ventilation. Nothing that can't be solved, where necessary, with some Blacktak and/or Blackwrap.

Cooling can be handled by two methods, Air flow (passive or forced) or structure-convection. Structure convection can be very effective if done right. The video clip discusses cool to the touch knobs and controls so, maybe they've got a handle on the cooling issue.

As for the black wrap solution, if your electrician has to harness up and clip in while he climbs 50' - 75' up to walk a truss in a large arena, hauling along black wrap (or having to go back after it) is a loosing choice in terms of time and labor costs. If it is a FOH cat walk where one can just walk up to the unit, not so much of a deal.

Thumbscrews on the iris slot: I suspect these would get too hot to use bare-handed. What electrician doesn't carry a Leatherman/Gerber with Phillips bit?

My take on this is they would be convenient, the cool to the touch lauded by the demo may or may not be real, have to see. My take would be to make a Phillips or slot in the top of the thumb screw so it could be hands or tool operated.

36/26/19° vs. 40/30/20°: I'm kind of disappointed Altman has acquiesced on this point. Why are we still using sizes based on obsolete 6x9/6x12/6x16 s? To me, it further reinforces the popularity and ubiquitous-ness of the first fixture to use those denominations.

As we all know, the reason for the choice in the first place was that LD's and electricians had learned over 3/4 of a century just how big a beam was at a specific distance. The intent was to maintain that relationship. When the S-4 first came out, they didn't want LD's and electricians to avoid them due to unfamiliar beam angles and coverage.

I've never seen a touring group use a Strand/Selecon ERS. Only once did I have an A/V company bring Shakespeares. I suspect it will be long time, if ever, before I see an Altman Phoenix in the wild.

Have to agree here.

Anyway, all the above is just IMHO and certainly open to discussion and rebuttal.

[derekleffew]

...Don't know about legit theatre on long running shows, but we have had clients in museums and movie theatre lobby displays ask for custom gobos to replace shutters due to drift over time. In these instances the light is usually tight cut on a display, work of art or exhibit area and the light fixture is hung in a very difficult to get-at location. ...

We discussed using a custom gobo to replace shutter cuts in this thread.

[gafftapegreenia]

Also, the Phoenix comes with an HPL option. Isn't it great when patents expire?

This fixture was likely created so that Altman could continue to provide complete packages without the buyer asking for "genuine Source 4's".

[Footer]

This thing will get dropped into highs schools and churches all across the country if it comes in at least 10 dollars less then the S4. It won't ever go into any rental stock or professional venues. Its not a rider freindly light no matter what, and it takes years for riders to change. All anyone wants now is a S4 or something like it that has an LED package in it AND it does the exact same thing as a S4.

All in all though, riders drive the pro industry. There are better things out there then the most rider friendly gear out there... but everyone knows what the standards to and accept it.

[JChenault]

I got a look at LDI. To answer some comments.

It did seem much shorter than the Shakespeare. Ehen measuring from the pivot of the yoke to the gel frame holder it seemed roughly equivalent to a S4. (just general impression I do not have numbers)

There is no extra lens in the gate (according to their rep)

The gel frame holder seems nice. You can open it and it stays open.

Hot knobs. I believe they plan to use plastic knobs that will not get too hot to handle. The thermal management seemed pretty good and the unit did not seem terribly warm.

[DrPinto]

A few of my opinions:

The Phoenix looks like an improvement over the Shakespeare, but it's still no Source 4. If the price difference is only $20, why would anyone bother with it?

Let's see how hot the back of that instrument gets after it's been on for a while and it's pointed down. I'm not throwing away my gloves yet.

Shutter locks are an interesting feature that I don't need. Kind of like a lighted ash tray in a car. I have to wonder if pressing on the shutters to lock them might reduce their life. And what will happen when a newbie tries to adjust the shutters while they're locked? A better idea is to make the lock an option and knock off $10 if you don't want it.

I like the HPL lamp option. I've struggled with GLA socket failures in Shakespeares before (I swear the GLA sockets are designed with altitude sensors that cause the instruments mounted the highest to fail). Personally I would have just gone with the HPL lamp and eliminated the GLA socket. When I see an S4, I know there's an HPL lamp in it. Now when I see a Phoenix, I will have no idea what lamp I need until I take it apart. Also, does the HPL option add to the price of the Phoenix?

If the barrel rotates 360 degrees, does the gel frame holder lock? It didn't look all that secure in the video.

If you're revealing a new instrument at an industry trade show, you might want to be sure all the correct parts are on it. That "makeshift" long screw on the bottom that he apologized for didn't exactly make me feel great about the instrument.

If they wanted to produce a product that would make them leading edge, Altman could have come out with a retrofit kit to convert the Shakespeares to LED. Or even a retrofit kit to make an S4 into an LED. THAT would GREATLY interest me.

The industry doesn't need another heat-generating-hi watt-amp sucking-halogen lamp instrument. They're on the way out.

[calkew5]

It fits a seachanger, so it has the same body as a source four. It's compatible with source four lenses, so it has the same barrel and optics as a source four. It even uses the same lamp?! The source four came out in what, like, 92? So it took you almost twenty years to add shutter locks and little knobbies on the iris slot? None of these features sound like features ETC didn't think of - they didn't implement them, and for a reason.

The Source Four barrel has gone through revision...J? If they wanted a little box around the color frames, they would have done it by now.

What I'm getting at is that I'm a little offended that the rep claims "it's been a while since anyone's really innovated the ellipsoidal." ETC just announced a freaking LED source four, and that doesn't count? But what does count is that you produced a fixture with such similar design and optics to your competitor's that it takes the same lamp, lens trains, and after-market parts?

Makes me mad.

[MPowers]

Wes,

Why the anger? Why waste your time being mad over a standard, world wide, business practice? Remember, the sincerest form of flattery is imitation. Altman is just playing the "if you can't beat 'em - join 'em" game. I'm an ETC dealer and I'm not the least bit disgruntled. This kind of imitation is every where, the cars we drive, the phones we use, the computers we buy....... as soon as someone has a good idea, a certain Asian country starts selling knock-offs and American and European companies do the same as soon as they figure a way around the patent laws.

[Les]

This kind of imitation is every where, the cars we drive, the phones we use, the computers we buy.......

That's exactly right.

---
The iris slot thumb knobs have always existed on the Shakespeare, to my knowledge (or at least since 1995). I've always thought of it as a good idea, I just wish they were captive. I've lost a few of them because the threads were shorter than I expected.

In my opinion, Altman has been doing a lot of innovation, but in other areas thus [seemingly] neglecting their conventional line. They have the Spectra CYC, Spectra Par and I believe a Spectra Strip now. I've heard that these are very good products, perhaps way underrated. Let's keep in mind that Altman is designing and manufacturing these fixtures themselves (not to knock ETC, but they simply bought a company who had already done a lot of the technical work). I wouldn't be surprised if Altman is working on an LED ellipsoidal.

I think Altman is just an old-fashioned company that is slow to adopt change. The Phoenix is no Source Four, but at least they've done something with the Shakespeare.

[DuckJordan]

The LED s4 is really not that improvement its a selador in a smaller box "supposedly" and even then the only one I've seen was at etc's cue. So they haven't come out with it at all. The ellipsoidal is stuck where its at because designers aren't needing or wanting more. The industry drives the gear. So you should expect to see "high wattage" (i laugh a little inside I work with 1k units daily...) ERS units for close to twenty years.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[dvsDave]

Duck, Duck, Duck. The LED S4 is much more than just a "Selador in a smaller box". I've gotten up close with this unit at LDI 2011 and the optics alone make it quite a different beast from a Selador fixture. Blanket statements like this are not really helpful.

Has it been officially released? No. Have most of the people in the industry who's company will sell the unit seen it? Probably. It's more than vaporware, but it hasn't been released officially yet. However, this thread is not about LED ERS units, it's about a new conventional ERS from Altman. It's simply not fair to say, "Why bother with conventionals, just do LED's!" This is a really horrible statement. Given a normal venue that has a large number of ERS fixtures in inventory, lets say 150. For the price of LED ERS units, that 150 ERS fixtures would only amount to 26 LED ERS fixtures, and that's assuming a pretty good deal on the LED ERS units. When the price of LED ERS fixures comes down to less than double a conventional ERS, then the arguement has merit. Not really until that point, not for the majority of CB members.

[MPowers]

.............The industry doesn't need another heat-generating-hi watt-amp sucking-halogen lamp instrument. They're on the way out.

Hi watt, heat generating??? You don't even know. When I first came in this business, 8" and 10" 2K units were common. Talk about heat, they only put out about as much light as a 750 hpl, so watts = either heat or light, you figure it out. Put a T-40 mog bi post lamp in a mostly steel and iron housing about 42" long and 16" diameter at the housing, and what do you have??? Answer, a moderately efficient space heater!

Oh Yeah! At the other end of the line was a 3K or 6K plate, AKA piano board resistance dimmer. the 3K plates had two 1.5k unit on it or 3 1K units. Had to load the plates up so they would completely dim out. The 6K plates usually had 3 2K units, 4 1.5 units or strip lights. If you used a lot of 750W or 1K units for specials, you might have to use ghost loads to dim them out. If you were using 500w units, you were using 4 to 6 on a single 3K plate. 4 500w units on a 3K plate would not completely dim out, needed a ghost load. The board ops loved bright musicals with beach scenes, "Nothing Like a Dame", "Wash that man right 'outta my hair" hated scenes like "Bali Hai" and "Carefully Taught" . Bright scenes = heat at the lights and stage. Dim/romantic scenes = Heat in the booth/dimmer room. One summer in Boston, (14 6K plates and 28 3K plates, think 100 1K space heaters in a 20'x30' room) it averaged 115F in the booth, with warehouse fans at both doors for cross ventilation, during Student Prince ( lots of dim romantic/heart tug scenes).

Oh, and BTW, LED ERS units are still in the R&D stage. It will still be a while before they are a true projector grade, framing shutter hard focus, economically feasible for the mass market viable product. Will it happen in my life time, maybe, in yours, probably, but don't hold your breath.

[DuckJordan]

I agree with you Dave. I was just explaining how being an etc fan boy can really get on peoples nerves... I would love to see these altman phoenix replace all our lekolights in our inventory...

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[Les]

I agree with you Dave. I was just explaining how being an etc fan boy can really get on peoples nerves... I would love to see these altman phoenix replace all our lekolights in our inventory...

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Good thought process there. The Phoenix may not be perfect, but I'm sure it's leaps and bounds over what a lot of people are using. It's easy for a lot of people to poo-poo Altman it seems, but the simple fact is that they probably don't have as deep of pockets as the likes of ETC. I can tell that they're really trying to turn their business model around. Consumer demand drives innovation, but so does capitol. Without an industry-standard line of consoles, dimmers and ellipsoidals, it is probably hard enough to keep the doors open, let alone drop millions in to R&D for products that may flop.

[dgourley]

Hello Everyone,

My name is Daniel Gourley, the guy in the video. I am the Western Regional Sales Manager for Altman and I wanted to address a few things to help clear up any confusion. First off, thank you for the feedback. I love hearing both the good and bad thoughts about our products because honestly that is the only way we improve them over time.

A few things I noticed, and I apologize, that I missed in the video were that the Phoenix is shorter than a source four by an inch. It is also lighter as well. The bench mark we were not shooting to beat was the Shakespeare. Our clients/specifiers were specific that they wanted a smaller/lower profile fixture that added less weight to their linesets, road boxes, trussing and trucks.

Some of you might know, but my background is in production and systems design for performing arts centers. I spent the first half of my career as a catwalk junkie, electrician, project manager and eventually LD for anything and everything from church, to concert work to theatrical design work. I have lugged Colortran, S4's and SL's up way to many ships ladders than I can count. A lighter and shorter unit is a welcomed change for me.

I heard someone say it's a "source 4 rip-off"... Not true. When you package something smaller, you need to re-engineer a few things completely like heat management, fixture balance,etc. The only throwbacks to a S4 are the HPL lamp which I think is inefficient and the internal points where the front lens assembly and back assembly meet. We did this so that if you were in a house with HPL lamps, you weren't penalized for upgrading. If you had seachangers, you didn't need a new plate accessory to sit on a shelf, etc. I think that is pretty smart and I wish someone had though of that when we went through the 80's-90's of no standardization in our infant industry.

Someone also said its the same lens tube as a S4... Um, no. The optics are improved over a shakespeare and a S4 at no extra cost to the enduser. You can buy an amazing lens tube from someone if you want at an additional $80 a pop, but I could never warrant that expense in house as a tech. I'd rather just buy tylenol thats improved, then extra strength thats $6 more.

As for some of the other statements about not needing full 360, light leak isn't an issue, shutter locks not necessary etc., that's your opinion and maybe you don't see a need for that in your space. But MANY have asked for these changes. Some of these features have been on other units with people saying "That's great, but only if it didn't have this____" There are no "But only if's" with the Phoenix.

You will see these hit dealers in the coming months. Go see for yourself. The first 110 of these are being shipped to Loyola Merrimount University who has relegated their collections of S4's to the black box. The Phoenix is real and I personally am excited to see how we light our shows and talent with a new ellipsoidal.

Thanks guys and look forward to meeting you in your venues over the next year.

Daniel Gourley
Altman Lighting
914-260-0691

[josh88]

I think Les nailed it and I look forward to seeing the Phoenix in person. It's tough because ETC is my go to for lights, I really do love the S4, but I've got nothing against Altman and I'd love to give them some business, maybe I'll phase out my old decrepit altman's (that still work pretty well despite being far older than me). But if the price point is that close to the S4 I'd still likely want to side with ETC. Also, I too question the naming of it. Sure Phoenixes are cool and fire-y but what are they trying to say there? hehe.

in the past 5 years everywhere I've worked still has and uses shakespeares and old 6x9 (insert other sizes) I'd love to see those 6x9's go silently into the night... or at least get sold to someone on the cheap so that they can still benefit somebody.

[DrPinto]

Altman is just hyping up an S4 knockoff. That's not very innovative.

I'll say it again. I still believe that we don't need another heat-generating-hi watt-amp sucking-halogen lamp instrument. I'm comparing the instruments we use today to the new LED equipment.

This is for the old timers: It's as if Century-Strand introduced and hyped a new model resistance board just as Kliegl was introducing their new SCR dimmers.

With the advantages of less heat, less energy consumption, and lower maintenance, I believe that LED instruments will be the standard very soon.

It's my opinion that within a few years, auditoriums will be pricing out LED packages. Even with the higher per instrument cost, it would be attractive because energy costs would be lower and you will no longer have the need for an expensive dimmer rack.

When a new technology is on the horizon, people are less likely to spend their dollars on the old stuff. You're more likely to see them hold out until the latest and better equipment hits the market.

Altman would do better by spending their time developing LED equipment. I don't know enough about the optics, but if there was any way to develop LED conversion kits that could retrofit current Altman instruments, I would jump at that.

In the meantime, I'll keep my current inventory of conventional instruments maintained. I'm holding off any new purchases until the high quality LED stuff hits the market.

[Footer]

Hello Everyone,

My name is Daniel Gourley, the guy in the video. I am the Western Regional Sales Manager for Altman and I wanted to address a few things to help clear up any confusion. First off, thank you for the feedback. I love hearing both the good and bad thoughts about our products because honestly that is the only way we improve them over time.

A few things I noticed, and I apologize, that I missed in the video were that the Phoenix is shorter than a source four by an inch. It is also lighter as well. The bench mark we were not shooting to beat was the Shakespeare. Our clients/specifiers were specific that they wanted a smaller/lower profile fixture that added less weight to their linesets, road boxes, trussing and trucks.

Some of you might know, but my background is in production and systems design for performing arts centers. I spent the first half of my career as a catwalk junkie, electrician, project manager and eventually LD for anything and everything from church, to concert work to theatrical design work. I have lugged Colortran, S4's and SL's up way to many ships ladders than I can count. A lighter and shorter unit is a welcomed change for me.

I heard someone say it's a "source 4 rip-off"... Not true. When you package something smaller, you need to re-engineer a few things completely like heat management, fixture balance,etc. The only throwbacks to a S4 are the HPL lamp which I think is inefficient and the internal points where the front lens assembly and back assembly meet. We did this so that if you were in a house with HPL lamps, you weren't penalized for upgrading. If you had seachangers, you didn't need a new plate accessory to sit on a shelf, etc. I think that is pretty smart and I wish someone had though of that when we went through the 80's-90's of no standardization in our infant industry.

Someone also said its the same lens tube as a S4... Um, no. The optics are improved over a shakespeare and a S4 at no extra cost to the enduser. You can buy an amazing lens tube from someone if you want at an additional $80 a pop, but I could never warrant that expense in house as a tech. I'd rather just buy tylenol thats improved, then extra strength thats $6 more.

As for some of the other statements about not needing full 360, light leak isn't an issue, shutter locks not necessary etc., that's your opinion and maybe you don't see a need for that in your space. But MANY have asked for these changes. Some of these features have been on other units with people saying "That's great, but only if it didn't have this____" There are no "But only if's" with the Phoenix.

You will see these hit dealers in the coming months. Go see for yourself. The first 110 of these are being shipped to Loyola Merrimount University who has relegated their collections of S4's to the black box. The Phoenix is real and I personally am excited to see how we light our shows and talent with a new ellipsoidal.

Thanks guys and look forward to meeting you in your venues over the next year.

Daniel Gourley
Altman Lighting
914-260-0691

FYI, our spam bot caught this post as it was dgourly's first post. Apologies to you for that and welcome to CB.

Now, back to another thread bashing a non-ETC product without ever touching it....

[LXPlot]

Sure Phoenixes are cool and fire-y but what are they trying to say there? hehe.

Phoenixes also last forever! They could be saying that!

This is for the old timers: It's as if Century-Strand introduced and hyped a new model resistance board just as Kliegl was introducing their new SCR dimmers.

Because ETC does not do that at all! (cough cough EOS cough cough)

In the meantime, I'll keep my current inventory of conventional instruments maintained. I'm holding off any new purchases until the high quality LED stuff hits the market.

If LED technology progresses at a rate similar to early semiconductor technology, which I've heard it compared to, your "high quality LED stuff" will be rendered out-of-date by the low-quality stuff after about 3 years even fifteen years from now.

That said, I don't love the idea of new tungsten fixtures either, but Altman was really taking a beating using Shakespeares against Source Fours in direct comparisons, and that needed to stop.

Also, it may have some nice fancy features, but as Derekleffew said to me a while back in a conversation about the Strand "Lekolite" line they're marketing, that doesn't mean a thing if photometrics and quality of light doesn't compete.

[SteveB]

A thanks to Dan for his feedback.

As comment. I've just retired my 64 Shakespeares to the Theater Dept. One of the major issues (among many) I had was the Osram/Sylvania medium 2 pin socket that would suffer repeated failures when using anybody's GLC lamp, Osram/Sylvania included. In the multiple years that I have run S4's side-by-side with the Shakespeares, I'd find myself constantly swapping out lamp caps on the Shakespeare's, where as I cannot recall ever having to do so with my S4's. So sorry to say, but the HPL lamp is a superior lamp and socket combination. I am happy you included it on the Pheonix and would never order the alternative.

Best of luck with the fixture and maybe get the spec's up on the website ?

Steve Bailey
LD/HE
Brooklyn Center for the Performing Arts
Brooklyn College

[Footer]

In the multiple years that I have run S4's side-by-side with the Shakespeares, I'd find myself constantly swapping out lamp caps on the Shakespeare's, where as I cannot recall ever having to do so with my S4's. So sorry to say, but the HPL lamp is a superior lamp and socket combination. I am happy you included it on the Pheonix and would never order the alternative.

I've done plenty. I've also done plenty of TP-22 sockets as well. Our source fours are just now turning 4, so I forsee some caps going in the coming years. However, we have Strand/Century fixtures that are still on their original socket after 25 years in the air and an FEL in it for its whole life. We probably have to fix one or two a week, but in reality that is not that horrible with 600 fixtures in house. One venue I spent time in had an older S4 stock and I probably changed out at least a socket or two a week there. I personally don't believe one is far superior to the other. Granted, you could have gotten a bad run of caps with your shakespeares, ETC had that same issue a few years back if I recall.

[jglodeklights]

Daniel, props to to Altman for improving their common level ERS fixture (although you still do have the sharpest edge I've seen this side of a 360Q right at the front. May want to refine into curves the edges of the colorframe holder).

My take, though? I have Shakespeares, I was gonna get them changed into S4's and didn't. Still not gonna go to Phoenixes. LEDs are where it is at. I also didn't hear mention of 5, 10, 14, 70 and 90 lens tubes. Will these be available? I know that every house I've worked in will use at least one or two of these options every season for at least several shows. My Shakespeare stocked theater has 12 (or 20 depending on the designer) 10 degree lenses on the FOH Booth Rail for the main front light system. 10's are too sloppy with flare and too small. 19's/20's are too big and too dim. The 14 or 15 degree is what will go there once the lights are changed. The high school I work with will want 14's in the cats as their follow spots. Would seem counter intuitive to some degree for Altman to release a fixture that has a barrel capable of accepting a wide range of lens tubes, but forcing you to buy the lens tubes from another manufacturer to meet your requirements.

An important step for Altman, yes, but without an LED profile fixture accepting all the goodies from this fixture within the next two to three years I suspect Altman will be right back where they are now regardless of how good the Phoenix is.

[dgourley]

Daniel, props to to Altman for improving their common level ERS fixture (although you still do have the sharpest edge I've seen this side of a 360Q right at the front. May want to refine into curves the edges of the colorframe holder).

My take, though? I have Shakespeares, I was gonna get them changed into S4's and didn't. Still not gonna go to Phoenixes. LEDs are where it is at. I also didn't hear mention of 5, 10, 14, 70 and 90 lens tubes. Will these be available? I know that every house I've worked in will use at least one or two of these options every season for at least several shows. My Shakespeare stocked theater has 12 (or 20 depending on the designer) 10 degree lenses on the FOH Booth Rail for the main front light system. 10's are too sloppy with flare and too small. 19's/20's are too big and too dim. The 14 or 15 degree is what will go there once the lights are changed. The high school I work with will want 14's in the cats as their follow spots. Would seem counter intuitive to some degree for Altman to release a fixture that has a barrel capable of accepting a wide range of lens tubes, but forcing you to buy the lens tubes from another manufacturer to meet your requirements.

An important step for Altman, yes, but without an LED profile fixture accepting all the goodies from this fixture within the next two to three years I suspect Altman will be right back where they are now regardless of how good the Phoenix is.

Joe, we have been developing an LED ellipsoidal for over a year now. It will happen soon and that is all I can say on that front. In the mean time we will sell a lot of conventionals.

As for other lens tube sizes, we are working on that and both the tubes and a zoom option will come soon. As for the front of the lens tube, it is not as sharp as you think. They really did a nice job there.

[DrPinto]

Joe, we have been developing an LED ellipsoidal for over a year now. It will happen soon and that is all I can say on that front. In the mean time we will sell a lot of conventionals.

Now you're talking. I'd love to see what Altman comes out with for an LED ellipsoidal. THAT'S what you should be developing, not another conventional instrument. I wouldn't consider buying a Phoenix when I know that decent LED equipment is just around the corner.

When you do put your LED ellipsoidal on the market, I hope you don't price it close to what ETCs LED ellipsoidal will go for. If you can manufacture a decent quality LED instrument and bring it to market at a much lower cost than ETC, you will have a winner. If you plan on pricing it within $20 of ETC, forget it. ETC will win every time. They have the well earned reputation for high quality equipment at a high price. Altman has the reputation for good quality equipment at a more reasonable price.

Presently I'm using all Altman conventional instruments. When I spend the money to upgrade this system, I will do whatever it takes to go LED. I can't see throwing good money at instruments using technology that's over 20 years old. I will see what both Altman and ETC have to offer when their equipment hits the market.

[Footer]

When you do put your LED ellipsoidal on the market, I hope you don't price it close to what ETCs LED ellipsoidal will go for. If you can manufacture a decent quality LED instrument and bring it to market at a much lower cost than ETC, you will have a winner. If you plan on pricing it within $20 of ETC, forget it. ETC will win every time. They have the well earned reputation for high quality equipment at a high price. Altman has the reputation for good quality equipment at a more reasonable price.

Price really does not mean crap compared to how good the fixture is. Why do you instantly think altman can not make a good fixture? Their spectra cyc fixture is by far the best cyc wash fixture out there.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the first manufacture that makes a color mixing LED unit that has the same properties as a top of the line profile light will have an order of about 300-400 units coming there way. I don't care about brand loyalty, I care about the product that I am buying.

Now, lets get off this LED band wagon. This thread is not about that.

[DuckJordan]

Keep in mind Dr pinto is just one voice... I personally won't move to led until there is better color from them. I have never seen an led that fits my standards. So there you have it, on conventional, power hungry, heat producing, end user.

Any chance a South Dakota dealer might get a couple to show off. Or an eastern Iowa or southern Minnesota? I'm thinking of getting a few of these for a band rental system.
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[DrPinto]

Price really does not mean crap compared to how good the fixture is. Why do you instantly think altman can not make a good fixture? Their spectra cyc fixture is by far the best cyc wash fixture out there.

I NEVER said that Altman can't make a good fixture. At several of the spaces I'm working at we use all Altman fixtures and they've held up extremely well. I've purchased Altman before and I expect to buy Altman products again. It just won't be the Phoenix.

And I can't see how anyone can say that price doesn't mean "crap". Sometimes when bids are put out to equip a new theater, price is the most important consideration. Instead of purchasing high quality instruments and dimmers, decisions are made by non-theater people to go with the equipment that costs less with almost no concern for quality. I've seen that too many times.

And as far as the "LED bandwagon" goes, I suspect that we will all be on it within the next few years.

[sk8rsdad]

In my never-to-be-humble opinion, an expensive white light LED ERS is not going to make much headway in the entertainment market. Anybody who understands efficiency will dislike the thought of sticking a filter in front of the lens and giving back the any power saving over a conventional instrument. So that implies developing a colour-mixing LED that is capable of producing a good white light too. Once all that gets crammed into the fixture, the manufacturers are going to be seeking a price point closer to a mid-market ERS with a SeaChanger, or maybe a cost-conscious ERS with a scroller at the other end.

Maybe the mods should move all the LED ERS discussion into a new thread since it is way off-topic and muddying the discussion of the Phoenix.

[dgourley]

Duck,

Email me your info and I will make sure Julie Mauséy connects you with someone who gets one of these in to demo.

[gafftaper]

As usual, some people are getting completely lost in the reality of financing for half the theaters out there. There are a lot of 30+ year old 360Q's still in use out there... and they are going to stay in use for a long time to come. There are thousands of ETC Express consoles in use right now that will stay in use for decades. There are so many schools, community theaters, and churches out there who can't afford anything. They buy what they can and use it until it falls apart, then replace it one instrument at a time. These are the potential buyers for the Altman Phoenix, and they will keep buying conventional fixtures until the day that an LED ellipsoidal costs less than a conventional fixture.

The increased energy efficiency of switching to LED isn't that important to this group for four reasons:
1) The cost of electricity is buried in the rest of the building budget and so it's hard for them to define how much they could save. At the college I have been at, they have no idea how much energy we were consuming in the theater. It's just lost in the total campus usage. Same is true for most schools and churches.
2) Higher regular operating expenses are much easier for these types of facilities to stomach than a large one time equipment purchase. The idea of having to come up with an extra $20k to buy LED fixtures is simply not possible. When something breaks and needs replacing, they go replace it with the cheapest option.
3) Many have the wrong infrastructure for LED's. They have very little non-dimmed power in the right place. Most of these facilities have a single DMX line that runs from the console to the dimmer rack. There might be one extra output on the rack or backstage somewhere, but nothing in the way of DMX distribution need to control a full LED rig. Both of these are very expensive problems to solve. These places also often are running an ancient console that can't handle the amount of DMX channels needed by LED's. So they would need a new console too.
4) For many of these facilities their entire inventory is around 30-40 fixtures. They get used a few times a week for a few hours. The cost of replacement vs. the amount of use just doesn't make sense.

For all these reasons, the Phoenix re-design (and the changes in the Strand product line) are a great idea. It's much like the switch from SD to HD TV, that big of a change can't happen over night for those who don't have a lot of money. Yes the market is fading and there is a new technology that is superior, but there is still at least another decade of people in the low budget theaters needing conventional fixtures. ETC has left the door open. The S4 is the industry standard, but it has had no major changes in a LONG time. If you've ever used a Selecon Pacific you know there things that ETC could do to improve the S4. My guess is ETC's plan is to try to lead the movement of the market along to LED's and not focus on conventionals. That leaves even more room for Altman and Strand to make a move.

And a second point I want to bring up...
It's been almost 20 years since the S4 was invented. ETC has been king of the market all that time. Their products are rock solid and they stand behind their products with top of the line customer service. The love of the S4 as an industry standard is well deserved. However, that doesn't mean that someone can't create a better product tomorrow. It's completely possible that Altman can make a superior product at a lower price. Altman is NOT a flash in the pan little company, with a history of crappy products. We are talking about an industry legend with a history much longer and deeper than ETC. Yeah the Shakespeare kind of sucked, but long before the S4, the Altman 360 was king of the fixture market. Markets change, products come and go, companies change. Who knows what lies ahead.

I don't wish ETC any ill will at all, they are great people, they make great products, they support CB, they have taken amazing care of me as a customer, and they throw and awesome party. I recommend them highly, but who is to say that some other company won't come out of nowhere and invent the next industry standard (just as ETC did when they dethroned Altman in 1992). Last year at LDI, one of our CB friends who works for ETC said to me, "We can never tell if you like us or hate us", and here I go again (sorry guys). The point is anyone who blindly follows a single manufacturer as a fanboy is a fool. No one manufacturer can do everything perfect for everyone. No one product is perfect for everyone. Maybe the Phoenix is a vastly superior product to the S4 for you and maybe it isn't for me. I don't know until I try it out in my theater and see how it satisfies my needs. So keep an open mind about these things, get a hands on demo, and judge the results for yourself based on the actual results.

Crap, I'm turning into Ship.

[Nelson]

Gafftaper well described our situation as a public school. Many times our purchasing decisions are driven by low bid. We need ellipsoidals, so we go out for bid for ellipsoidals. When our auditorium was built in 2004, Altman 360Q 6x9s were low bid, so we now have a theater full of 360Qs! Not that I'm complaining, our 360Qs have treated us well. Point is that if we decide to purchase new fixtures, a $20 difference between Phoenix and S4 is all it takes for us to buy the Phoenix. Having never used either the Phoenix or S4, and considering they are similar units, we would go with the less expensive unit. (We do have some Shakespeares permanently installed as aisle lights, but aside from changing lamps, I've never touched them). Truth is, if we needed more ellipsoidals, I'd go out and buy more used 360Qs because that's really all we could afford.

There are also a lot of people out there like myself that are used to using halogen conventionals and aren't in any hurry to try anything else. I'm a creature of habit, and our old fixtures have always worked OK, so I'm not rushing out to find new fixtures to use. If a good LED ERS became available, and I could demonstrate to administration that it will pay for itself in x years, I might be able to buy a few. Still, I would only be able to purchase it if I could demonstrate that the long-term energy savings are worth it. Even if LEDs are the future, there will still be a market for years to come for a halogen fixture. I can see situations where the fixture is used only occasionally and energy savings would take years to pay for the fixture. Our space is probably in that category, we only use all of our inventory about once a year, so we might buy a few LED units and keep the rest halogen.

Crap, I'm turning into Ship.

I don't think that's bad at all! I'd be honored to turn into Ship! Although I would have to find the budget for some new keyboards !

[JChenault]

As usual, some people are getting completely lost in the reality of .....

IMHO some people are also getting lost by the hype of LED units.

Do you want to get a 'White' light from your LED unit that looks good on faces and natural on costumes and scenery - if so you do not want any kind of RBG, RGBA or RGBAW. Selador with it's seven colors comes close(er) to useful, but it still has a very discontinuous spectrum. This means problems with a lot of colors.

Using LED's the only way to get anything close to a continuous spectrum of light (which is what we want when we are lighting something where color matters) - is to use a white LED. What happens in a white LED is that there is a phosphor which is excited by the LED and it produces the white light. What is the lifetime of these units ( The phosphor degrades over time ) - no one really knows yet. We see a quoted 25000 to 50000 hour life which equates to between two and five years. Anyone know of any high power white LED's that have been in production for that long? I am not aware of any.

IMHO we are many years away from a really practical led unit that I can use for front of house. Sure at LDI I saw some units that looked impressive, but quite frankly I don't want to spend my hard earned cash on one of them ( much less a whole fleet) until I can be confident that the light output will last for that rated 25,000 life.

Even if we solve the rated life issue, we then need to look at the efficiency of the unit. Is a white LED unit more efficient than other sources ( like an arc source )? it's not clear.

IMHO a general purpose LED fixture intended to light faces and scenery from the front of the house is at best in the Beta stages of development. ( Coming back to the topic at hand ) if I were trying to buy some general purpose ellipsoidals I would stay away from LED units at stick with Incandescent.

Up till LDI the king of reasonable priced incandescent ellipsoidals was ETC. The Altman Phoenix may be an interesting competitor.

[JChenault]

I've done plenty. I've also done plenty of TP-22 sockets as well. Our source fours are just now turning 4, so I forsee some caps going in the coming years. However, we have Strand/Century fixtures that are still on their original socket after 25 years in the air and an FEL in it for its whole life. We probably have to fix one or two a week, but in reality that is not that horrible with 600 fixtures in house. One venue I spent time in had an older S4 stock and I probably changed out at least a socket or two a week there. I personally don't believe one is far superior to the other. Granted, you could have gotten a bad run of caps with your shakespeares, ETC had that same issue a few years back if I recall.

Humm. This has not been my experience for the HPL burners that have the spring clip that keeps the lamp firmly seated in the socket. I have no records, but my strong impression is that those sockets ( with the spring clip) have a much longer life than the standard bi-pin socket.

Now I have had issues with S4 using older burners before they put in the spring clip - and with S4's where the spring clip was missing. But if the spring clip is there my maintenance experience with the S4 has been much better than the old style bi-pin.

Anybody know if the Phoenix has a similar clip to keep the HPL lamp firmly in place, or if they have figured out a better way to keep a GLC . EHG etc tightly seated?