Control/Dimming - Help me pick a console!

[briancon7]

He would need the express 48/96, 125, or 250. All of those are arround $3000 used.

[shiben]

smartfade can run a stack, however it's really horrible to program. If you can find a real board(see if someone will sell you an express real cheap, or an old strand board) I would highly recommend it. Failing that, yes, a smartfade will probably do what you want. Smartsoft on a computer connected to the console makes it slightly more bearable, but it's still not a substitute for a real console.

I would totally disagree on this, not that its a pain to program, but that the smartfade is not a "real" board. Does it control lights? Yes. Was it developed for that purpose? Yes. Its a real board, just maybe not the most efficient in terms of programing structure. The smartfade WILL do what the OP needs, and it CAN be used. While all of us would love a bigger, better and more efficient board, its just not possible for everyone. If a smartfade ML or 2469 is what the OP can afford, it will work fine. Based on the planned use, it will be fine for that at the moment. Not tons of expandability, but in my experience, small venues dont really have tons of cash to expand a lighting rig that works very often.

[GreyWyvern]

...but it's still not a substitute for a real console.

I would totally disagree on this, not that its a pain to program, but that the smartfade is not a "real" board. Does it control lights? Yes. Was it developed for that purpose? Yes. Its a real board, just maybe not the most efficient in terms of programing structure. .... Not tons of expandability, but in my experience, small venues dont really have tons of cash to expand a lighting rig that works very often.

Exactly shiben.

The SmartFade line was designed specifically for smaller sized theatres, clubs, and houses of worship. It is just as real of a console as a GrandMA, or Hog. Comparing it to any other ETC console and saying that a SmartFade is not a real console is just as absurd as comparing an EOS or Ion to a GrandMA or similar and saying the EOS is not a substitute for a real console.

[Daveslights]

is the Strand Lightpalette 90 way out of date? or even useful for this application?

[shiben]

It wont have a ton of the more modern features, like color picking for the LEDs, so youll have to have a bit more work involved in the programing of colors, but realistically, it ought work ok... It outputs DMX, has more channels than you will need, and overall looks to be fine. I would be a bit worried about parts and whatnot though.

[Daveslights]

ok, thanks.

Now the Smartfade 2496 - does it allow you to group channels? meaning, can you selece and LED fixture and adjust its parameters or do you just have access to each channel via a fader?

I've found a used one at a great price.

[GreyWyvern]

ok, thanks.

Now the Smartfade 2496 - does it allow you to group channels? meaning, can you selece and LED fixture and adjust its parameters or do you just have access to each channel via a fader?

I've found a used one at a great price.

The ML model is the only one that allows profiles, so unfortunately, you will have to use individual fader control. You can however use the multiple pages of memories to store looks or ... presets, so to speak.

Like I said, have a computer available to program. Once you get the hang of how to program on the SmartFade, it can go quickly and be fairly easy. There is a slight learning curve which I think turns a lot of people off to the consoles, but if you take the time needed with it, it just as good as or better any other comparable console. I think you'll like it.

[Jeroen]

The ML model is the only one that allows profiles, so unfortunately, you will have to use individual fader control. You can however use the multiple pages of memories to store looks or ... presets, so to speak.

Like I said, have a computer available to program. Once you get the hang of how to program on the SmartFade, it can go quickly and be fairly easy. There is a slight learning curve which I think turns a lot of people off to the consoles, but if you take the time needed with it, it just as good as or better any other comparable console. I think you'll like it.

Exactly. The Smartfade 'thinks' different than other consoles such as the ETC express, EOS, ION,... and therefor many operators will at first strugle with this litlle board. It is perhaps even slightly more difficult to use then comparable consoles such as the MA Lightcommander 48 or the Zero88 Jester or the ADB console range, but it has a lot more possibilities, versatility of use, and a very nice free software Smartsoft. Indeed without Smartsoft the stack isn't friendly to the end user, however the latest updates to the smartfade console software made it a lot easier to use, because of upgraded feedback on the lcd screen. So anyone complaining about the Smartfade consoles probably has only used version 1, with updates it's a fearly usable console. With powerfull options for smaller theatres, who are never going to buy tons of movers, or even conventionals. And finaly for the price of one MA LC or ADB xt you can get several ETC smartfades...

A real console, for certain people and goals: yes. And if you don't like it, just use it as a dmx board in combination with a dmx in/out dongle and Chamsys MagicQ on pc or GrandMA on pc. This gives you a Chamsys or GrandMA device with 48 direct fader controls. Combine that with a touchscreen and you have a very powerfull console. When such power is not needed, just use the usb connection and Smartsoft for easy operation.

[Daveslights]

Hey Guys,
It's almost time to purchase everything for this. And of course the budget has been cut. so now I'm looking at:
6 LED pars (4 channel)
8 Lekos
4 Frenels

So at a total of 28 channels, I think it's safe to say that the smartfade 24/96 is the way to go.
anyone disagree?

[Cadmium6855]

smartfade can run a stack, however it's really horrible to program. If you can find a real board(see if someone will sell you an express real cheap, or an old strand board) I would highly recommend it. Failing that, yes, a smartfade will probably do what you want. Smartsoft on a computer connected to the console makes it slightly more bearable, but it's still not a substitute for a real console.

A smartfade isn't that bad, very easy to program, stack is very easy to program as well, I use it at my school and it is wonderful.

[lightingguy1]

Help me pick a console!! -

My Rig has four optima lighting PAR 64 LEDs, two ADJ mega panels, and one Dimmer pack that Dims three ETC Source Four Jr. Zoom Instruments.

I need a Console:

1. That is more Concert oriented. -- Ex: Mutliple Playbacks/Cue list.

2. Has a Effect Generator for my LEDs.



My budget is 2.5k....

I would like to be able to expand th system..........




Thnx
-Lightingguy1

[Pie4Weebl]

Your console budget is more than the entire value of the gear? I ran a dozen LED pars and some scanners off a $80 cheapo DJ desk and it worked fine for me.

[lightingguy1]

Your console budget is more than the entire value of the gear? I ran a dozen LED pars and some scanners off a $80 cheapo DJ desk and it worked fine for me.

well..That is MY off-time fun rig... :D

Oh and BTW, i need to add two Elation vision scan 250's to that list!

well. I kinda anwsered my own question..2day. I bought a 400 channel ETC Expression 3 from one of my local rental companies "that didn't need it anymore" for $1k.

amazing deal, huh?

[Pie4Weebl]

well..That is MY off-time fun rig... :D

Oh and BTW, i need to add two Elation vision scan 250's to that list!

well. I kinda anwsered my own question..2day. I bought a 400 channel ETC Expression 3 from one of my local rental companies "that didn't need it anymore" for $1k.

amazing deal, huh?

That is a great deal but have fun running movers on that! (Though I have done it before with cheat sheets for channel values for the movers)

[lightingguy1]

That is a great deal but have fun running movers on that! (Though I have done it before with cheat sheets for channel values for the movers)

Yea right,

Your probably thinking on trying to use movers on an Express - Thats impossible!. I have 6 pages of 5 phyiscal encoders.

Cheat sheets arn't nessecary when you have less than 20 fixtures, and you patched them in such a way that it is easy to memorize.

Ex.

Key:
DMX Cable= -----
Fixtures= [ ]



[ LED Par 1]-----------------[LED Par 2] --------------------[LED par 3]------[LED par 4]

On Expression 3:

Fixture 1 Fixture 2 Fixture 3 Fixture 4



not as efficient as programming hundreds of movers on a Grand ma, but is still way better then trying to program movers on a simple leprecon/NSI board

[Pie4Weebl]

I've had access to that too, I ended up getting so frustrated with the encoders that I switched over to individual channels!

[lightingguy1]

I've had access to that too, I ended up getting so frustrated with the encoders that I switched over to individual channels!

boo!!!! I fogot to add that you need to have the encoders setup in such a way that makes sense to you, NOT the board:D



Lightingguy1

[RenHealy]

hello I am the Lighting Director of a music venue. I have been asked by management to price out a new lighting console for our venue. I have been there for about 5 years and I am basically self taught using Light Jockey, and a 64 channel NSI board for par lights. Currently there are 30 channels of par lights, and 136 channels for moving lights, strobes and a fogger. We are looking for something that will run the par lights and intells on one console. It is a mainly live rock venue with a 1800 capacity. I run cover acts every weekend so I need something that will be easy to put a good show "on the fly" so I think faders are a plus. There are also many large name national acts that come so something that is somewhat compatible with what they use is also a plus. I have been given a budget of around 10k- maybe 15k if I can make a good sell. Any help would be great, I'm looking for 2-3 that I could try to at least get a demo set up.

[chausman]

hello I am the Lighting Director of a music venue. I have been asked by management to price out a new lighting console for our venue. I have been there for about 5 years and I am basically self taught using Light Jockey, and a 64 channel NSI board for par lights. Currently there are 30 channels of par lights, and 136 channels for moving lights, strobes and a fogger. We are looking for something that will run the par lights and intells on one console. It is a mainly live rock venue with a 1800 capacity. I run cover acts every weekend so I need something that will be easy to put a good show "on the fly" so I think faders are a plus. There are also many large name national acts that come so something that is somewhat compatible with what they use is also a plus. I have been given a budget of around 10k- maybe 15k if I can make a good sell. Any help would be great, I'm looking for 2-3 that I could try to at least get a demo set up.

I don't know if Strand has anything that fits you needs, but possibly and ETC Ion with a 2x24 fader wing might be good. Depending on the number of faders you need, you can add up to 6 fader wings to the Ion. I don't think the Element (Ion's little brother) is the best, just because of the number of movers.

[icewolf08]

Given the nature of what you do, R&R and mostly busking, it would probably be advisable to look into the HES Hog line of consoles. They are very prominent in that end of the industry and would probably serve your needs well.

[bishopthomas]

I don't know if Strand has anything that fits you needs, but possibly and ETC Ion with a 2x24 fader wing might be good. Depending on the number of faders you need, you can add up to 6 fader wings to the Ion. I don't think the Element (Ion's little brother) is the best, just because of the number of movers.

NO! Not for a rock club. I mainly see Avolites in installed clubs. Either a Pearl or a Hog 2 would probably be your best bet for guest LD's. Many of the major label acts will be carrying their own console, especially if they're looking for something specific such as GrandMA, but these are the most common that I have seen.

[chausman]

Thanks. I don't really know what other brands have, I just know what ETC has to offer.

[sk8rsdad]

Thanks. I don't really know what other brands have, I just know what ETC has to offer.

In the ETC line, the Congo may be a better busking board than an Ion. It is possible to busk with an Ion but the board is optimized for a cued show rather than on-the-fly programming.

[soundlight]

hello I am the Lighting Director of a music venue. I have been asked by management to price out a new lighting console for our venue. I have been there for about 5 years and I am basically self taught using Light Jockey, and a 64 channel NSI board for par lights. Currently there are 30 channels of par lights, and 136 channels for moving lights, strobes and a fogger. We are looking for something that will run the par lights and intells on one console. It is a mainly live rock venue with a 1800 capacity. I run cover acts every weekend so I need something that will be easy to put a good show "on the fly" so I think faders are a plus. There are also many large name national acts that come so something that is somewhat compatible with what they use is also a plus. I have been given a budget of around 10k- maybe 15k if I can make a good sell. Any help would be great, I'm looking for 2-3 that I could try to at least get a demo set up.

The options that I would suggest:

Martin M1
Flying Pig (HES) Road Hog with an extra Playback Wing
Avo Pearl 2008 or 2010 (they're the same desk, really)
--Or the Pearl Expert, if you can swing that

The Avo Pearl line is a standard in rock clubs, any LD touring the club circuit can probably run an Avo. Plus, it gives you a lot of faders for your conventionals, which other desks don't - which is why I think it's gained the popularity it has in rock clubs. I don't really like to run shows on the Pearl if I know the band well and can program in advance, but for on the fly stuff with plenty of conventionals, it's great.

ETC and Strand are theatre consoles - not concert consoles. So they really are out of the question for a rock club.

[derekleffew]

(Posted simultaneously with the above.)

...It is a mainly live rock venue with a 1800 capacity. I run cover acts every weekend so I need something that will be easy to put a good show "on the fly" so I think faders are a plus. There are also many large name national acts that come so something that is somewhat compatible with what they use is also a plus. I have been given a budget of around 10k- maybe 15k if I can make a good sell. Any help would be great, I'm looking for 2-3 that I could try to at least get a demo set up.

As much as it pains me to say it, I think an Avolites Pearl/Tiger/Titan of some flavor fits your requirements exactly. The grandMA line doesn't really have anything appropriate in your price range. A Barco/HES Road Hog or Martin M1 might squeek into your price range. Both would be overkill for what you have right now, but would allow plenty of expansion over the next ten years. I'd also look at Chamsys MagicQ MQ50.

[RenHealy]

I was thinking Avo was a good suggestion, but I had a real hard time finding a price or where to buy from. Any ideas where to find some more info on them and maybe where to set up a demo?

[soundlight]

I was thinking Avo was a good suggestion, but I had a real hard time finding a price or where to buy from. Any ideas where to find some more info on them and maybe where to set up a demo?

You're gonna have a hard time finding a price on any of these things online. They're mostly price on request. You'll need to contact a major lighting distributor who sells the brands in question and would be able to secure demos (probably directly through the manufacturer or national distributor).

[Pie4Weebl]

At right around 10 grand I think an M1 will be the best bang for your buck!

[derekleffew]

I was thinking Avo was a good suggestion, but I had a real hard time finding a price or where to buy from. Any ideas where to find some more info on them and maybe where to set up a demo?

Avo is going through some turmoil with their US distributorship. For a time, TMB was rep'ing them, but last I heard was "They'll be an announcement shortly." As they don't have a US distributor listed on their site, perhaps send an email to asking who in the US one can buy from and request a demo. Then again, one wonders if it's this difficult to buy a console, what happens when one needs service?

[RenHealy]

yes, these are some substantial reservations I have on the Avo company, I did just look up the M1 console too. I've had some similar reservations on Martin; however I was impressed with it at first glance.

[LXPlot]

Okay I'm going to do something a little bit different, or the same but backwards. What kind of venue would be optimised by a Palette VL? An ETC Element? A Leprecon LPC of the most recent line?

Anyway, thanks. Or if you don't wanna answer this because of it's lack of practical use, that's cool to.

[derekleffew]

Okay I'm going to do something a little bit different, or the same but backwards. What kind of venue would be optimised by a Palette VL? An ETC Element? A Leprecon LPC of the most recent line? ...

As lightboards are more easily acquired/changed than the venue or type of performance, its an inane topic. I've never yet seen a venue or production based around its lighting control console.

Now if you're questioning the marketing hyberbole that goes

Console X is perfect for schools, churches, and assembly halls,
Conole Y is suited for large professional theatres and roadhouses
Console Z is demanded by top national touring acts

by all means, question those statements.

One normally defines the need/requirement/desire before seeking the solution.

[Stofa]

i have gotta say theat etc expression boards are amazing. i love them and can program in my sleep. also the expression offline editor is free and is awesome in a fix. got a 48/96 at my school and no complaints

[sotalight16]

At my school we have an express 48 i belive and are trying to upgrade to a system that is compatable with every type of fixture. we are attepting a full overhaul of our system including dimmer racks and battens and everythng else. We want to be able to run musicals and live music concetrs and effexts and everything but are working with a school district budget. It would be nice if it was portable enough to move 1000ft or so with only a few guys and like an hour to get all the equipment there. We want the most virsatility and options with it. A grandMA might me too pricey for us but is on the list. we like etc but it looks like it might be time to switch to a different company.

[chausman]

At my school we have an express 48 i belive and are trying to upgrade to a system that is compatable with every type of fixture. we are attepting a full overhaul of our system including dimmer racks and battens and everythng else. We want to be able to run musicals and live music concetrs and effexts and everything but are working with a school district budget. It would be nice if it was portable enough to move 1000ft or so with only a few guys and like an hour to get all the equipment there. We want the most virsatility and options with it. A grandMA might me too pricey for us but is on the list. we like etc but it looks like it might be time to switch to a different company.

If you stick with ETC, there is the ION or the EOS The difference between the two (from what I have learned, correct me if I am wrong) is that the ION is meant for less moving heads and more effects like scrollers and LEDs, whereas if you wanted to have more moving lights, the EOS is better.

[LXPlot]

If you stick with ETC, there is the ION or the EOS The difference between the two (from what I have learned, correct me if I am wrong) is that the ION is meant for less moving heads and more effects like scrollers and LEDs, whereas if you wanted to have more moving lights, the EOS is better.

I may have to disagree. The ION is designed to be portable, which is ideal for the moving you wanted, but you could get that with anything assuming you have 2 people and/or a truck to carry the board. The EOS is a bulky 90 pounds so although it might be the best console I've ever worked with, it would be tricky to move. ION is only 20 pounds, but if you're willing to consider a GrandMA it's much to small for you. GrandMA is probably bad for a high school, very few of them are on the market other then big touring rigs, so you'd be very weird in this case. I think Carnegie-Mellon has one, so you could ring them up for more advice on it. The board I recommend is Strand's Palette VL64. It's similar to the EOS, and although it may be a little lower quality, it should be cheaper. It only weighs 38 pounds so it's easy to move, and hooks up very easily. It does have a habit for overheating, but that shouldn't be a deal breaker. However, if you can find an EOS at a comparative price that will be your best bet, at least from my experience.

Anyway, those consoles can run a multitude of moving lights and don't have any huge problems. They come at a decent price, and are both very approachable.

[SteveB]

If you stick with ETC, there is the ION or the EOS The difference between the two (from what I have learned, correct me if I am wrong) is that the ION is meant for less moving heads and more effects like scrollers and LEDs, whereas if you wanted to have more moving lights, the EOS is better.

The primary difference is cost. An Eos runs $25,000 or so. An Ion is in the $7500 range. What do you get for the extra $17,000 ?, built in touch screens, so 4 total screens available on the Eos. Plus motorized playback faders and a better keypad layout with fewer hidden and softkey functions. That said, the Ion (IMO) does probably 80% of what an Eos can do, mostly limited by number of universes. The built in touch screens on an Eos does make life easier in terms of programming with ML's and the like as there's less Tabbing between pages to access functions, so yes, the Eos makes programming easier, but if you get dual touch screens for an Ion, life with movers gets a whole lot easier. As to effects, the process is identical on both consoles as the software is the same. Ditto use of LED's and newer devices, same OS in both desks.

As to sotalight16's needs, The Ion is a lot easier to re-locate then an Eos, which is a much larger and heavier desk and not one I'd be moving around. Both desks can use the add-on fader wings, which offer terrific functionality and cost effectiveness. I confess that I'm not sure why you'd want to re-locate the console as it's a pain to lug back and forth. If you only need a remote for lamp checks and focus, the Radio Remote Focus Unit is a terrific tool. Or you can buy a dongle for a laptop, run the Off-Line software in Client mode, maybe add a $180 X-Keys box and you've got an easier system to move around.

[sotalight16]

I may have to disagree. The ION is designed to be portable, which is ideal for the moving you wanted, but you could get that with anything assuming you have 2 people and/or a truck to carry the board. The EOS is a bulky 90 pounds so although it might be the best console I've ever worked with, it would be tricky to move. ION is only 20 pounds, but if you're willing to consider a GrandMA it's much to small for you. GrandMA is probably bad for a high school, very few of them are on the market other then big touring rigs, so you'd be very weird in this case. I think Carnegie-Mellon has one, so you could ring them up for more advice on it. The board I recommend is Strand's Palette VL64. It's similar to the EOS, and although it may be a little lower quality, it should be cheaper. It only weighs 38 pounds so it's easy to move, and hooks up very easily. It does have a habit for overheating, but that shouldn't be a deal breaker. However, if you can find an EOS at a comparative price that will be your best bet, at least from my experience.

Anyway, those consoles can run a multitude of moving lights and don't have any huge problems. They come at a decent price, and are both very approachable.

unfortunatly overheating would be a dealbreaker due to the amount of use in a span of time. We have a minumum of 20 different events/shows to program in a school year and then people come in and utalize our systems so its more like 40+ different things it would have to do in a school year. and with the amout of time and variety of people needing to use it that would cause problems. This is also the only reason the grandMA is an option because of its versatility and abitity but i am very wary of getting one. I think a roadhog fullboar with additional wings and attachment might be a better fit. But am thinking abot ETC as well because it is compatable with our equipment.

[sotalight16]

The primary difference is cost. An Eos runs $25,000 or so. An Ion is in the $7500 range. What do you get for the extra $17,000 ?, built in touch screens, so 4 total screens available on the Eos. Plus motorized playback faders and a better keypad layout with fewer hidden and softkey functions. That said, the Ion (IMO) does probably 80% of what an Eos can do, mostly limited by number of universes. The built in touch screens on an Eos does make life easier in terms of programming with ML's and the like as there's less Tabbing between pages to access functions, so yes, the Eos makes programming easier, but if you get dual touch screens for an Ion, life with movers gets a whole lot easier. As to effects, the process is identical on both consoles as the software is the same. Ditto use of LED's and newer devices, same OS in both desks.

As to sotalight16's needs, The Ion is a lot easier to re-locate then an Eos, which is a much larger and heavier desk and not one I'd be moving around. Both desks can use the add-on fader wings, which offer terrific functionality and cost effectiveness. I confess that I'm not sure why you'd want to re-locate the console as it's a pain to lug back and forth. If you only need a remote for lamp checks and focus, the Radio Remote Focus Unit is a terrific tool. Or you can buy a dongle for a laptop, run the Off-Line software in Client mode, maybe add a $180 X-Keys box and you've got an easier system to move around.

it would be moved so we could run outdoor events with it as opposed to useing an outside vendor. It would be used for dances in the gym and events held on the field and in our central area. Its only to try to keep it in house for cost efectiveness and on the job learning. I am a fan of wings on any consol and laptop software and the less haveing to look through menues and such the better. because of the time restants on programing each show and event. It would also need to be good to handle live event and be run manually so if we went with etc we would most likely get the eos.

[Les]

The problem with getting a high-end board like the GrandMA is that anyone who needs to use it would need training. Maybe even extensive training. This is an industry standard board for concert tours, but not the casual/nonprofessional user. It would most likely be way overkill for your needs. I would look in to getting something more along the lines of the ETC Ion or similar.

You may be able to grasp the UI of the GrandMA very easily, but you have to look beyond 'you' and consider who else will have to figure the thing out -- especially after you leave the school.