Control/Dimming - Help me pick a console!

[sotalight16]

The problem with getting a high-end board like the GrandMA is that anyone who needs to use it would need training. Maybe even extensive training. This is an industry standard board for concert tours, but not the casual/nonprofessional user. It would most likely be way overkill for your needs. I would look in to getting something more along the lines of the ETC Ion or similar.

You may be able to grasp the UI of the GrandMA very easily, but you have to look beyond 'you' and consider who else will have to figure the thing out -- especially after you leave the school.

oh yes and thank you for makeing me clarify, i dont want a grandMA, i simply want a system that can be useable with out extensive training but has the most flexibility and variety in the features.

[Les]

oh yes and thank you for makeing me clarify, i dont want a grandMA, i simply want a system that can be useable with out extensive training but has the most flexibility and variety in the features.

Absolutely.
I was only reinforcing your decision to stay away from GrandMA in an educational setting. If that's the way you took it - great! If not, well I can't help ya there .
My post's intention was just a very 'general advice' kind of thing, which is something that most of us can use in situations other than choosing a light board for a school. You are potentially in a position to help dictate how students will learn for years to come. With great power comes great responsibility.

I hope you get the board you want. It's not very common for that to happen in a school setting, and sometimes it takes more time than you have left. Hopefully that doesn't become the case here..

And to echo some sentiments your other thread, do look in to having a factory rep look at those dimmer racks. They likely don't need replacement.

[sotalight16]

@les
yea we have called our current rental and sales house and are waiting for them to come in and help us out. We have had some union guys come in and laugh. But there opinon doesnt mater much to the district unless they have been contracted to inspect our gear.

We do want to set up a few demos of our top three boards and make a desicion that way. any sugestions of things to look at?

[soundlight]

OK, sotalight16 - what types of events will this console be used for? You mentioned a couple but I'm looking for a more comprehensive list. Also, what gear will it be controlling? Or is that part of an upgrade that you're not sure of yet?

[Les]

...what gear will it be controlling?

This is a good question. With that information, we can move on to the next step in helping you get an idea of the caliber of boards you should be considering.

Along with what types of events you do, we would also like to know what type of functionality you need (which is often tied in to the question of "what types of instruments do you have?")

Another thing is, how many dimmers are you controlling?

[sotalight16]

well it is part of an upgrade/renovation project but we have 2 48dimmer racks. Curently it only controls conventional fixtures and scrollers but we are going to expand our range of equipment into led and more complex fixture types. It would be used for Theatrical lighting, concert, and likewise. It would need to be a console other designers and ops would run across or could use straight forwardly because of how we rent our space out. We might expand to 2 60 dimmer racks or a 48 and a 60. Still looking into it.

[icewolf08]

I think that it is important to note here that this is going into a high school. What that means is that the whole process is probably far from in the control of you or even the Theatre department. If a renovation on the scale of what you seem to be describing is going to happen then it is going to have to be bid out and probably go to the lowest bidder. Generally on a renovation in a school of the scale you are talking you can't just go out and buy what you want. You may be able to make suggestions, but in the end it is going to be up to the city/district and the company/person that they hire/employ to draft the bid specifications.

All that being said, in a school setting you want the simplest console that will do what you need it to. Eos, GrandMA, and Hog consoles are probably serious overkill for a high school theatre and are definitely too sophisticated for the average band or choir teacher to come in and turn on lights when they need them. This is the exact reason the the ETC Express became the most popular console in the country if not the world. Now, if you are thinking that you are going to use 20+ moving lights and such, then you might need one of the bigger consoles.

For the average high school, Ion, Element, and the Strand Palette series are probably the ballpark you should be looking in. They can all handle moving lights, LEDs, conventionals and some pretty sophisticated cueing and such.

[SteveB]

well it is part of an upgrade/renovation project but we have 2 48dimmer racks. Curently it only controls conventional fixtures and scrollers but we are going to expand our range of equipment into led and more complex fixture types. It would be used for Theatrical lighting, concert, and likewise. It would need to be a console other designers and ops would run across or could use straight forwardly because of how we rent our space out. We might expand to 2 60 dimmer racks or a 48 and a 60. Still looking into it.

Everything you state here makes me say it in one word: Ion.

Something like 2,000 sold to date, so folks are going to see this desk all the time, and any student working this desk at your space will have a useful skill outside. Two of my electricians have found gigs specifically because they have Ion time at our space and were hired on other gigs as a result. It pretty much fits the job description in your last post. Get dual touch screens, a fader wing or two and an Radio Focus Remote.

[sotalight16]

The ion seems like it might be a bit small, i meen its definatly a good idea but it seems more like a cue only type board and i dont know if fader wings will be possible but if we go this route then they will be required. I think the eos and the palett might be more what were looking at but going to set up demos so that the lighting crew and Dept head can give imput on it because the lighting equip is coming out of a saved budget not out of district funds for the most part. The rest of the renovations are from the district but dimmers and console are mostly our dime. But i need to look at the virsitlity of the ion. because it will be a big factor. also the RFR is a strong possibility and we have a practice box for the unknowing members of our school who use the theater and dont have a key to the booth (rare item). they know that if they press a button on it lights will turn on and thats what keeps everone happy.

[SteveB]

The ion seems like it might be a bit small, i meen its definatly a good idea but it seems more like a cue only type board and i dont know if fader wings will be possible .

I can't say I've ever heard of anyone making a choice based on the console being too small. Too big, yes, but not too small.

Here's some thoughts and rationalizations as to why I went to an Ion instead of an Eos.

- The Eos was actually too big for my position. I knew I needed faders and a lot of them and that became a determination - real estate, as in where to put the Ion plus 2 -3 40 fader wings. In reality, a lot of the size of the Eos comes from the built in touch screens, as well as the 10 motorized faders. I knew I didn't need 10 motorized faders and gambled that 2 touch screens for the Ion would make the system flexible enough. It did. One of the things I never expected to be doing was adding and striking wings as needed for the event. Some shows are simple and use one wing, some none as I only need the desk on-line to do a focus, then the event gets run on a show desk (and I now have room to make it fit - something I couldn't do if I had an Eos, I'd have to strike the desk). Other times I have all 3 wings use. Total flexibility.

- You trade in some buttons when going down to the Ion from the Eos (as well as 4 to 2 screens). If you want to know which buttons, run the Off-Line Editor between the Ion and Eos versions to see the layout. Some of those buttons can be useful, but in truth, ETC did a pretty good job figuring out which buttons could become softkeys or double tap on the Ion to allow the Ion to do what it needs to do. About the only thing I've missed is the + and - percent keys that allow +/- 10 percent channel levels to be found easily. That and maybe a Level key. I do not miss having dedicated pan/tilt encoders as you can replicate that with a trackball and I generally just use the existing encoders, which means I have to remember to press the Position key. Not an issue.

- I don't run events that would max out the current capacity of my Ion, which is 1024 addresses. I can always pay for more if needed. And it's not only 2 universes. If used with a Net2/3 system, it's 1024 addresses across 32 universes, so a lot of flexibility.

- I tend to run shows either as 1) On a few subs with some or no movers. 2) Or a lot of subs with 10 movers as well as LED's, 3) Cued. With cued shows, the 2 screens show channel levels on one screen, cue structure on the other. With busy events on a lot of subs as well as LED's and movers, I'm not cuing, so have no need to see the cue list. I generally don't even need to see channel levels as I'm looking at the stage and can see what's happening. I don't need at that point to see that the Blue Bax are at 47% vs. 53%, as example. Thus for the non-cued shows I set up the screens for a lot of Direct Selects so I have one button access to Fix groups, colors, focus, beam etc.... as well as presets. Between the Direct Selects and the encoders, I can busk a show very easily. As well, the console allows Snapshots of the screen layouts, so it's really easy to do a cued show using a snapshot for direct selects to cue with, then run it with channel levels and cue sheet displayed on a 2nd snapshot. Ditto adding in the Color Picker, make it snapshot 3, etc....

- I've said I use a lot of faders. I end up having to run stuff as one-off's with no cuing. Some stuff cannot be done using the keypad to access channels. One of the things that has always puzzled me is how many houses that use an Eos never purchased any supplemental fader wings. Possibly because of the huge cost difference between Ion and Eos, but I hear many stories of folks working in a house with an Eos where they have to run the whole show on 10 faders and a lot of paging. I actually got a call from a LD buddy who wanted to borrow a wing for a local house with an Eos. I didn't have one free and he told me later the console operator had never hooked one up and wouldn't have known how too.

- Which of which is why I have always felt that the Ion, which IMO can do 80% or more of the Eos's function at 1/2 the cost, is the best bang for the buck.

[sotalight16]

I didnt quite realize that it has that much versitility so this changes my thought process quite a bit. We have decided that we want to stay in-house with ETC due to many factors including they are easy to work with, they dont require much attention to equipment in storage like our conventional fixtures which are ETC for the most part. Does any one think a congo might be a good idea? it seems like it has the potential but i want a real opinion because i dont want to put it on the list with out knowing if anyone thinks it might be worth it. The light crew at my school will discuss and decide our favored option but i want to go in there with a little bit of user opinins. Any feedback is appriciated because everyone wants people who have used a systems opinion.

[sk8rsdad]

About the only thing I've missed is the + and - percent keys that allow +/- 10 percent channel levels to be found easily.

Double-tap the + and/or - key to get the +/- 10% feature. The default increment can be change in the Desk settings dialog. I just wish I didn't have to keep hitting the [at] key.

[icewolf08]

I didnt quite realize that it has that much versitility so this changes my thought process quite a bit. We have decided that we want to stay in-house with ETC due to many factors including they are easy to work with, they dont require much attention to equipment in storage like our conventional fixtures which are ETC for the most part. Does any one think a congo might be a good idea? it seems like it has the potential but i want a real opinion because i dont want to put it on the list with out knowing if anyone thinks it might be worth it. The light crew at my school will discuss and decide our favored option but i want to go in there with a little bit of user opinins. Any feedback is appriciated because everyone wants people who have used a systems opinion.

First of all, you should make sure that you still demo consoles like the Strand Palette Series. Until you have sat in front of the consoles you shouldn't write them off. Saying a manufacturer is easy to work with when you may not have worked with any of the others is a rather unfair bias. Also, a console is a much different kind of technology. You can't just throw it in storage like a lighting fixture. So saying that ETC gear doesn't require much attention or maintenance in storage is not really true. This of course is not to mention the fact that every fixture that sits in storage should get some kind of maintenance at least once every year if not every time you take it out to use it.

As far as Congo goes, some people love it, some don't. While not as old as Obsession and Express(ion), it is an older console than Eos/Ion. It uses RPN syntax which means that you will have to learn a totally new way to interact with the console. Again, some people think this is a great feature, I personally feel like you have to stand on your head to program it. Ion is geared more towards a theatre environment, Congo seems to generally be geared more towards environments where you are busking the shows (programming on the fly). Congo is inherently a cue-only desk while Ion is a tracking console. Ion is probably a better fit and the software is quickly becoming very prevalent in the professional and academic world, be it on an Element, Ion, or Eos. It is probably better in terms of education to be running an Ion.

[rcr53]

This is my first posting to this forum. I'm looking for advice on selection of a lighting console primarily to be used for concert applications. By concert application, I mean lighting stages for bands playing on stages ranging from small nightclubs up to and including all-day/night outdoor festivals. I'm primarily a sound guy, but my collection of luminaries has grown over the past few years to the point where I need one good control surface to manage it all. A few caveats though. I would appreciate responses that deal with best use of the assets I have as opposed to condescending comments relating to the quality and quantities of what I own. I do understand the majority of what I own (Chauvet, SNIMP, High-Tech Lighting) most of you consider low-end DJ equipment, if not total junk. I also know basically what are good quality brands (ETC, Jands, Avolite, High-End, Martin, etc.), but I can't afford it, what I have only comes out a few times a year, and it's more a hobby than a profession. I am not an LD (yet) and will probably have to find someone competent in that area for larger shows, but I do want to have a console in inventory that can deal with whatever we want to put up, and most importantly, I want something to learn on. My budget for a board can't exceed 1500, and I expect that will only get me something used, which is fine. So, with all that said, here is what I have:
12 ea High Tech Lighting PAR64 3W (RGB w/36 three watt LEDs)
12 ea High Tech Lighting PAR64 (RGB w 188 10mm LEDs)
8 ea PAR64 500W VNS with Wybron "The Scroller"
8 ea PAR56 300W MFL, 4 with Wybron "The Scroller "
8 ea PAR38 150W SPT (with gels)
2 ea 360Q 6x9
2 ea 360Q 6x12
2 ea 3.5" lekos
4 ea 3" fresnels
6 ea Chauvet Intimidator2 scanners (605s and 616s)
5 ea Chauvet Intimidator 2 movers (690s and 685s)
2 ea Chauvet MicroScans (615, 620)
2 ea Eliminator Hulk 150 movers
2 ea Chauvet derbys
2 ea Chauvet 750W strobes
2 ea Chauvet 1250 W foggers
1 ea Chauvet hazer
1 ea SNIMP DL-55 laser
4 ea 16' lifters
2 ea 30' triangular truss
What I started with over 10 years ago was a NSI MC6300. Good enough for my needs back then. A few years ago I picked up an NSI MLC-16. Up to now I've been using the 6300's faders to control dimming traits on the MLC-16. Last year I delved into PC based lighting with DasLight. The NSI boards work OK as control surfaces for this program, but it's all getting to cumbersome - too many bits and pieces. Today I found on ebay an NSI/Colortran MC 24/48. I read through the manual and although it has no means of generating effects automatically and has a prehistoric 3.5" drive, it can support up to 256 intelligent devices and gives me access to 48 channel/24 sub faders. I can probably pass effect through its DMX IN from DasLight. The price is in range (under $1500). Any reason why this wouldn't work for my application?

[derekleffew]

...Today I found on ebay an NSI/Colortran MC 24/48. ...

MC 24/48 or MC 7524? I think you've confused the two, and the eBay listing is ambiguous. Neither console is LED or moving light "aware", and the latter doesn't have enough channels to even run your LED PARs, unless you want them all doing the same thing. Truth be told, you have more gear than any little "low budget" console can handle, even a SmartFade 24/96. 72 channels (min.) of LED, 12 scrollers, how many dimmers?, plus 17? moving lights. I'd look into MagicQ on a laptop with a PC Wing, but I'm not sure that fits into your price range.

[rcr53]

MC 24/48 or MC 7524? I think you've confused the two, and the eBay listing is ambiguous. Neither console is LED or moving light "aware", and the latter doesn't have enough channels to even run your LED PARs, unless you want them all doing the same thing. Truth be told, you have more gear than any little "low budget" console can handle, even a SmartFade 24/96. 72 channels (min.) of LED, 12 scrollers, how many dimmers?, plus 17? moving lights. I'd look into MagicQ on a laptop with a PC Wing, but I'm not sure that fits into your price range.

Thanks for the quick reply! Did some more research and found the board I was looking at (now gone with a buy-it-now), the Colortran Innovator, is identical except for the outer case to the NSI MC 24/48. Seems NSI bought out Colortran and just renamed this board and changed a few cosmetics. The manual refers to it as both the Innovator and the NSI MC 24/48. No matter - it's now unavailable. I'm reading up on the Chamsys products; downloaded MagicQ (looks daunting...). Any thoughts on the Elation Show Designer board? The literature says it will handle 48 seperate fixtures, but it only has 8 faders. Still soliciting more good thoughts/opinions, including any on dealing with usedlighting.com or solaris

[techieman33]

With that budget your never going to run all that gear at a festival. I think the magic q pc would be a good option, for your small gigs, and then rent a larger console for the bigger gigs. You could probably even find a full size chamsys console that you could rent in the area so you would still be using a familiar interface.

[CSCTech]

When it says "48 Fixtures" it might be refering to its total number of available channels.
If I were you I would not go with a NSI/Colortran/Leviton/Lee board (Those are all the same company now).
You have quite a lot of channels to control there, so I would suggest a console geared more toward intelligent fixtures, which is not going to be any of Leviton's. Maybe, maybe the Innovator might be able to do it but it wouldn't be a good investment, just ask anyone whos used a Leviton board.

All I can think of, being that I have not used that many intelligent fixtures at once, is an ETC Express 48/96. We got ours for a steal at $2000.

But with your price range, and the amount you will be using the system. I software based controller will most likely be your best bet.

[hazard]

Has anyone had any experience with either of the Lightronics TL series consoles:

Lighting Control Consoles - TL Series

I am looking into non-PC based control for a small group in a small space with small funding and I am often wondering where one can find an affordable console with the ability to run cues with timing.

The TL 2448 is in the $1650 range and seems to be able to do quite a bit.

Thanks in advance for any knowledge from anyone who might have used either of these.

[EBB]

I've used it before. Kinda finicky with LED's but for dimming it's just fine. I had to program a studio spot to it and that part was incredibly annoying. I don't suggest it if you are looking to put movers on it. But for conventional stuff, worked fine. I think you may look into an old ETC or Strand board if you are looking to get a conventional console. But if you are wanting something that is going to be more updated to movers and LED's then you may have a more difficult time in that price range.

[sconosciute]

Hi. I was on the ETC website earlier today and noticed the "Show us your ETC" Contest, they are giving away an eos to the winner, and I was wondering if the eos would be right for my theatre.
We have a 345 seat Proscenium style theatre, 2 battens over the house and 3 over stage.
300 Dimmers/Circuits. We have 30 Source 4 Ellipsoidal Front Lights and 2 S4 Revolutions (Intelligent Lights). Over stage we have around 40-50 lights, a mix of Fresnells and PAR cans w/ 4 S4 Ellipsoidals.. Along the the side walls in the house we have 8 LED fixtures that color the walls.

I have no grand idea that we will for sure win a contest like this, but hell if I don't want to try!

[chausman]

Hi. I was on the ETC website earlier today and noticed the "Show us your ETC" Contest, they are giving away an eos to the winner, and I was wondering if the eos would be right for my theatre.
We have a 345 seat Proscenium style theatre, 2 battens over the house and 3 over stage.
300 Dimmers/Circuits. We have 30 Source 4 Ellipsoidal Front Lights and 2 S4 Revolutions (Intelligent Lights). Over stage we have around 40-50 lights, a mix of Fresnells and PAR cans w/ 4 S4 Ellipsoidals.. Along the the side walls in the house we have 8 LED fixtures that color the walls.

I have no grand idea that we will for sure win a contest like this, but hell if I don't want to try!

They are giving away an EOS line console, ie. Eos, Ion, or Element. That means that it might not be an EOS that you could get (unless you got 1st place).

I think an Eos would probably be overkill for the number of lights you have. An Ion would probably be more fitting for your theater. An Element might be more frustrating for you (from what I've heard).

(Ps, I'd change Intelligent Lights to Robotic Lights or Moving Heads or something similar, or DerekLeffew or another might throw a little fit (again)).

[sconosciute]

Also, Just noticed someone above dogging using Leviton/NSI boards w/ intelligent fixtures. I have a Leviton 8724GX 24 slider model. The board is amazing, we have two intelligent fixtures right now and I have never had a problem using them wit this board, and anything we have used with other lights (i-cues, scrollers, etc) Have always worked well.

And thanks for the advice, I'm hoping to upgrade pretty soon, but getting money from the district is nearly impossible and grants are hard to come by. I think I'd like to get the eos anyway, just for the shiny factor :D.

I'll keep that in mind for the future *I'd make it subscript but I don't know how on here*

[chausman]

I think I'd like to get the eos anyway, just for the shiny factor.
I'll keep that in mind for the future *I'd make it subscript but I don't know how on here*

If you must go for the shiny factor, I'd suggest waiting for the Gio.

And, click on BBCode below to learn about the subscript. And other tags you can use.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[erwaggoner]

I run a small children’s theatre. I must admit my theatre tech knowledge is very limited. Currently we do our shows in our high school’s mini-theater. The lighting system is very simple, three banks of lights controlled by a dimmer switches on the wall. I recently discovered a DMX input on the wall and was told connecting a light controller would override the wall switches. Since we are a small community theatre, with limited funds I’m considering purchasing a Chauvet Stage Designer 50 DMX Lighting Controller. I basically need to turn the lights on and off, adjust intensity, isolate separate or group of lights and pre-program the board so I can accomplish each change with a push of a button. Will this board serve my purposes? What are its limitations? If we move to a larger venue would this board still be useable or would I have to buy something more robust? If you believe this board is not suitable any recommendations that are not thousands of dollars.

TIA
Paul

Without knowing exactly what you are looking to do, the Strand 200 Plus console might be worth looking at, they appear to be selling for around $1000 right now. I have an original 200 series in our middle school theater and it performs very well for basic control of a handful of lights. It can output a full 512 DMX channels and supposedly can handle moving lights (I don't have any to try this with) although I imagine it would be difficult on this type of console. Just a thought...you can check it out at Strands website: 200 Plus Series Console | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand

Eric

[milan]

I run a small children’s theatre. I must admit my theatre tech knowledge is very limited. Currently we do our shows in our high school’s mini-theater. The lighting system is very simple, three banks of lights controlled by a dimmer switches on the wall. I recently discovered a DMX input on the wall and was told connecting a light controller would override the wall switches. Since we are a small community theatre, with limited funds I’m considering purchasing a Chauvet Stage Designer 50 DMX Lighting Controller. I basically need to turn the lights on and off, adjust intensity, isolate separate or group of lights and pre-program the board so I can accomplish each change with a push of a button. Will this board serve my purposes? What are its limitations? If we move to a larger venue would this board still be useable or would I have to buy something more robust? If you believe this board is not suitable any recommendations that are not thousands of dollars.
TIA
Paul

--
To be honest I've had nothing but problems with Chauvet. I don't know if it is their moving lights or ETCs console. We have had trouble creating a profile to get the Chauvet Legend 550 Spots and Chauvet QBeam 260 LED lights working. When we upgraded the board the profiles were finally added by ETC but still had some glitches in the software. It randomly turned on and off lights on startup. I don't know if anyone else has this problem but it is sooo annoying and will burn out my lamps quickly if it's not resolved soon. However, the ION is pretty simple to learn and setting up moving lights is not hard once you're past the learning curve. I love ETC products but think my theatre is cursed! lol
But, the ION has enough channels within its setup (mine is two universes of 1024 DMX channels) to handle most LED/intelligent lighting we will use. The other thing to consider when going to those is edison power available so you don't have to use up dimmers just to power your intelligent lights.

Otherwise, ETC Expressions have been rugged workhorses... with Congo/Eos/Ion being the replacement line. I've not worked with many others exept the Hog 1000. It was also a good board.

Best of luck choosing one! I agree with one of the other posters... Get a DEMO!

[FutureWeapons]

Hi,

New member here, registered after reading this thread. I'm looking at installing a lighting controller into a little rock club that has a small amount of lights and a budget of $1,000 (or less). They currently have the following:

12 Dimmers
1 Spotlight
1 Hazer

2 Martin CX2 scanners (8 channels total)
4 LED RGB fixtures (20 channels total)

Any suggestions on something incredibly simple to use? They don't have a lighting tech and will usually have whatever sound guy is working run it, although their main sound person is into learning lights too. I was thinking maybe a Chamsys Mini Wing attached to the computer in the booth or possibly ENTTEC DMXIS (since I can use it to write simple cues in advance and they can also learn to program it pretty easily) but they're a bit computer resistant so hardware-only might be better. I'm unfamiliar with hardware based controllers though so I'm hoping somebody here might be able to suggest something?

Thanks for any feedback!

[DuckJordan]

Hi,

New member here, registered after reading this thread. I'm looking at installing a lighting controller into a little rock club that has a small amount of lights and a budget of $1,000 (or less). They currently have the following:

12 Dimmers
1 Spotlight
1 Hazer

2 Martin CX2 scanners (8 channels total)
4 LED RGB fixtures (20 channels total)

Any suggestions on something incredibly simple to use? They don't have a lighting tech and will usually have whatever sound guy is working run it, although their main sound person is into learning lights too. I was thinking maybe a Chamsys Mini Wing attached to the computer in the booth or possibly ENTTEC DMXIS (since I can use it to write simple cues in advance and they can also learn to program it pretty easily) but they're a bit computer resistant so hardware-only might be better. I'm unfamiliar with hardware based controllers though so I'm hoping somebody here might be able to suggest something?

Thanks for any feedback!

Enttec DMX Pro, with Freestyler is what i have seen several smaller bar and clubs use for their package similar to yours.

[emoreth]

We're looking at the possibility of a new console this spring because our NSI MC 24/48 is having fits and may not be cost-effective to repair. Here are our considerations:

1) How easy will it be to train volunteers -- some with a little outside experience, some who have never seen a console -- to run a pre-programmed show?

2) How easy is it to run a show with MLs on the fly, if you know what you're doing?

3) Our shows are mostly church services, which have a pretty conservative look and can be run entirely from presets. There are some times, though, when we're busking rock shows in the sanctuary. Our system is not great for that now (30 ColorKinetics RGB bars as cyc lights, plus 4 Technospots and a hazer), but we're slowly expanding in that area. We need a board we can grow into, preferably with at least 3 universes to start.

4) We like the idea of having a couple rows of faders, so our green volunteers who are still scared of buttons can make adjustments on the fly.

Right now, we're primarily looking at the ETC Congo/Congo Jr. and Ion (with a fader sidecar). The Avolite Pearl and the Strand Palette VL are on the list as well. Something from Compulite is a possibility, but I haven't done much research on them yet.

This was not in our budget for the year, so we need to keep the numbers as low as possible without sacrificing functionality. Any ideas?

[chausman]

Ion with a few wings sounds almost perfect for that. It's very easy to teach and learn, and doesn't have a large amount of colorful lighted buttons to intimidate new users, and has some very powerful software.

[gafftaper]

We're looking at the possibility of a new console this spring because our NSI MC 24/48 is having fits and may not be cost-effective to repair. Here are our considerations:

1) How easy will it be to train volunteers -- some with a little outside experience, some who have never seen a console -- to run a pre-programmed show?
Right now, we're primarily looking at the ETC Congo/Congo Jr. and Ion (with a fader sidecar). The Avolite Pearl and the Strand Palette VL are on the list as well. Something from Compulite is a possibility, but I haven't done much research on them yet.

That's a tough order. Simple for someone who knows nothing about lighting but powerful enough to operate moving lights for a concert.

My two favorite ideas:
1) ETC Ion with a fader wing. You could keep the Ion out of the way when the beginners are around and just let them run the fader wing. But when you need it you have the power of the whole console. That's a lot less intimidating than a big console. The software is powerful and can handle your bigger events (it isn't universally accepted as a Hog or Ma would be to touring bands). ETC is the king of the market and the absolute best in customer service, however the downside is their consoles are a little less friendly to beginners than Strand. Get a demo in person

2) I'm a big fan of the Strand Palette series and their software in particular. I feel it's far easier to teach a new person than the ETC software. It's very "windowsy" feeling. Anyone comfortable with a home computer will quickly feel at home in the Strand Horizon software environment. I've taught a lot of students and they pick up the Strand really quickly. Don't worry about horsepower, the Strand software is both easy to learn and powerful. The biggest issue with Strand is their past reputation for bad customer service, there are many in the industry who will not buy a Strand console. However Strand has changed ownership a couple of times in recent years and I believe things have changed significantly. They treated me very well with my new console over the last 4 years and I have no reservations about recommending them. Still, they will never beat ETC in customer service and there are many in the industry who will not consider Strand because of that, I think they are making a big mistake. Get a demo in person.

I don't know a lot about the Pearl. Avo is huge in Europe and the rest of the world but it's a tough battle here in the US to find market share with ETC being so dominant. I know it's a good console and worth looking at. In a similar class is the Jands Vista. Another mega console manufacturer around the world, not as big in the US, but puts out great gear. Get a demo in person

The Congo is a great console but it's been snubbed a bit in the US lighting world because of its European style RPN programming syntax. I found it quick and easy enough to learn, however if you are dealing with tech riders and outsiders coming in this may not be the best choice. Get a demo in person

The best choice in terms of tech riders and acceptability to concert tours coming through would be to go with a Hog or GrandMA (neither of which you listed). The Hog and GrandMA are going to be the hardest to train on but provide the easiest use busking concerts. They are also probably the most expensive options on this list. Get a demo in person.

Compulite. Not to be rude, but are they still in business? It's a company which has been around a long time and was a player 30 years ago when the technology was first being created. However over the years they have been mostly forgotten. I haven't seen any of their new stuff and I haven't heard of anyone who owns one. They may or may not put out a great product now, I have no idea. My biggest concern with them would be to be the only one in town owning that console. There is definitely safety in the herd (ETC, Strand, Hog, Avolites, Jands, GrandMA).

No matter what you choose, get lots of demos in person!

[chausman]

Yes demos of everything. I guess anger question would be, what do other local venues have? What does your local shop have on hand that you could borrow I'd you have issues without having to convert file types?

[emoreth]

My two favorite ideas:
1) ETC Ion with a fader wing.ETC is the king of the market and the absolute best in customer service, however the downside is their consoles are a little less friendly to beginners than Strand.

2) I'm a big fan of the Strand Palette series and their software in particular. I feel it's far easier to teach a new person than the ETC software. It's very "windowsy" feeling.

The best choice in terms of tech riders and acceptability to concert tours coming through would be to go with a Hog or GrandMA (neither of which you listed).

I didn't list Hog and GrandMA because we don't host concert tours, just local bands working with our in-house crew. The only outside people who run our lights are from the company we'd be buying the console through, and that happens maybe twice a year.

Compulite was suggested to me on the basis of price by our dealer. I haven't seen anything in their lineup that fits what we need better than ETC or Strand, so unless the prices are drop-dead amazing, they're not high on my list.

Personally, I'm leaning toward the Congo (maybe Jr with a fader wing, depending on pricing) because A) I've heard it's easier to busk MLs on than the Ion and B) I like the fact that it's HTP and cue-only native, which is how our current board thinks. RPN is incidental as far as I'm concerned; if a volunteer can't learn it, they shouldn't be programming our board.

If we can set the Ion to default to cue-only and HTP, that'd make it a serious contender, but learning to think in tracking and LTP might be a bit too much of an adjustment for some of our volunteers who only run lights once a month.

I'm curious about programming language on the Strand consoles, but finding that out is what reading the manuals and getting a demo (in person) are for. Same goes for Avolite; I know our dealer has a Pearl on hand, so that one at least should be easy to arrange.

What does your local shop have on hand that you could borrow if you had issues without having to convert file types?

That is a good point. We've been lucky up til recently because our dealer had a spare MC 24/48. Unfortunately, theirs got rained on, so we no longer have an in-kind backup available for our half-mad piece of junk. It's a situation I don't like being in and would prefer to avoid with a new board.

[Pie4Weebl]

IMO, busking moving lights in a Cue only/state mode is the worst thing you can do to limit yourself. I think you should demo the Pearl, have someone train you in using it and you'll find its a very powerful desk.

[emoreth]

IMO, busking moving lights in a Cue only/state mode is the worst thing you can do to limit yourself.

In that case, either we need a console that can switch modes for rock shows, or I'll need to write a crap-ton of zeros into our standard cues so they can be run out of order.

I think you should demo the Pearl, have someone train you in using it and you'll find its a very powerful desk.

I'm certainly planning on that

[sk8rsdad]

In that case, either we need a console that can switch modes for rock shows, or I'll need to write a crap-ton of zeros into our standard cues so they can be run out of order.

Tracking consoles are smart enough to know what to do with unreferenced channels when jumping around during playback. When playing with multiple cue stacks, they will have some way to assert or allfade to deal with taking control of channels that are getting their state from elsewhere.

[nimblebrain]

i suggest a few guidelines for a buyer :
1- budget, be realistic and dont waste time ( yours or a sellers ) be honest, if you have 1 - 5,000 then you can access certain lines of product, 5-10k others and on and on. whatever your real budget is- tell the folks quoting you right up front.
2 - level of users. figure out how many diffrent types of users are in your venue operating the console- it might range from a really skilled tech whiz running a 300 cue show with movers and multi part cues, down to the janitor coming in to push up a sub handle to bring up house lights for cleaning. do they all need to access the console ? if so maybe you look at something very capable that still has some manual sliders.
3 - buy the " best " and " most " you can afford. dont hurt yourself in future by saying " we'll never need that many channels or cues" - cant tell you how fast you can outgrow a board, especially now a days. buy for the user 5-10 years from now. at schools especially level of expertise shifts with students and faculty.
4 - talk to people who similar venues types and sizes of venues that are using the console you are looking at - if your a school, ask the dealer or manufacturer for a user reference in your area, go visit and listen to what current owners like/dont like about the console.
5 - be concerned of who you buy from. look for a supplier who can provide drop dead overnight service or back up loaners. yes consoles fail, and always at the wrong time, i dont care who makes them, it happens. plan for it - also, buy from a manufacturer who has a service record - my simple test for owners is this...take the " emergency number for field service support " for the mfg that you are looking at, and call the thing at..oh say 7 PM factory time. see what happens, do they respond? does the dealer trying to sell it to you have an emergency number, and will they respond?
6 - get a demo, it your space. and make sure you push the buttons. have as many designers there and board ops ( past or present ) as possible.
7 - training. are there user forums or chats for your console ? will the dealer provide training broken into a couple sessions, a few weeks apart ? i always found this was more helpful - i would train users on basic features, navigation, how to write cues,subs,groups, how to playback and save and retrieve a show. then i would let them play with it for a couple weeks, go back and answer questions, as well as go further down into the operations. ask your dealer to do this. personally, i dont think anything above a two scene preset should be bought on line based on lowest cost... cause who's going to train you and service it, and bail you out willingly at 7:45 night of show?

hope this helps.

[Ingram]

what you guys think of the Avolite Titan Mobile, Martin M2GO and M2PC??

[emoreth]

I can't offer opinions on the Martin stuff, but I recently got a console that runs Titan and it's nice software, especially for busking.

[dantemclean]

I'm in a Nursery to Grade 12 school. Our venue is a gym. We are also on the road at least two or three times a month with the school band(s), so need portable and truck friendly.

Presently we have 4 fresnel (65Q), 2 Source4. Dimmers are Dove DM-406 (tempermental on road gigs and on the way out, hopefully). Our present console is a Lightronics TL-1608. The console is done--it has been crapping out during shows for several months, and at a show on Friday discovered faders acting up big time. (And, I _hate_ the thing ... so that does it!)

I was given go ahead to get quotes on new gear--I was not given any idea of budget, though. This is a wish-list only, for now. Need to move quickly, though! If we get it in on this year's budget, we might get it--they don't like giving extra budget back to the school division at the end of the year.

I'm looking at ETC SmartPack 12 channel + road case for dimming. I'm renting one for Graduation in 2 weeks anyways, we'll see how thing go with that.

We do not presently use movers, but I do rent things on occasion--and I think I want to leave that option open if we are getting a new console.

Needs: 16 channels or better, "bump" on each channel, programmable chase.

Console choice:

ETC ML or ETC 1296.

Any opinions on Zero 88 consoles?

Thanks!