New lighting board for a high school

[strandcentury]

My school is looking for a new lighting console. We have a really old console from the mid 70s (Strand Mantrix 2). The connections are all AMX and it lacks programmability and by "lacks" I mean it has none. We have rented a Colortran Status 12/24 before and really liked it. We are looking for a 24 channel console (dimmers are okay as we already have one 12 channel Strand CD80 pack), we make a lot of use out of cue stacks and want something that is easy to learn and program yet flexible. We also want something which is rugged and that can put up with a rough environment, yet something that is not too bulky. Our price range for the new console is $2200.00 or lower. We were thinking about an ETC SmartFade 24/96 Strand 200 24/48. The 200 has subs and no stack, so that is most likely out of the question. We have a total of 14 incandescent fixtures and we have NO moving lights and therefore do not need a moving light console. Anyone used the ETC SmartFade or Strand, if yes how is it and do you think it will meet our demand, or do you have any alternatives.

We would prefer to stay with Strand or ETC

[Froggy]

My school uses a Colortran/ NSI Innovator 24/48. It works well for us, and it would meet all of your demands except price. It goes for $3,500, but the extra money would be worth a console that seems perfect for your fit. You might also want to look into the smaller Innovator models, as well. For a simple system, the Innovator is the way to go. We are looking to get rid of ours because we are upgrading our system, and perhaps we could sell ours to you, perhaps.

[derekleffew]

...We have a really old console from the mid 70s (Strand Mantrix 2). ...

Might as well live up to your name there, strandcentury. Mantrix was introduced, as I recall, in 1979, along with the CD-80 dimmer and first Light Palette. Mantrix 2 would have been mid to late '80s.

[Wolf]

Thats a hard choice between the two. I've never used the strand 200 and the fact that it doesn't list having a cue stack that would eliminate it from my personal consideration, but I do like that it looks like it has a numeric key pad. I have demoed the Smartfade and Smartfade ML for ETC at USITT, and I use the ML on a regular basis now for are 6 mac 575 Kryptons. I know you wont be using automated fixtures though. The smartfade is a decent console, if you are used to a normal lighting console however this does a have an odd learning curve. It has a single cue list which will probably be all you need. The only draw back I see that it has is that there is no numeric key pad so every thing has to be done with the channel faders. Some people don't like the fat that it doesn't have a monitor but you can hook up a computer running the free off-line soft ware and it becomes a monitor with many features.
Is there something specific you want to know?

[gafftaper]

See if you can find a used ETC Express 24/48. It's only the most popular console ever built and possibly available in your price range if you can find one. On the flip side some schools are not allowed to purchase used equipment.

What about a Zero 88 Jester? I think that's might be in your price range.

Finally, You might want to think about going computer based. Get a spare computer, download the free Champsys MagicQ software, buy a Enttec USB Dmx pro dongle, and get a mini wing panel. If you can find the computer for free in the school surplus pile, the rest of it will cost around $1500. this software is a very popular low budget alternative around here.

[xander]

In your OP you say you are running on AMX. Do you need a console that speaks AMX or can you use DMX?

[chris325]

The Innovator series just isn't worth its price, based on the experiences I've had with it (the 600). I had a chance to play with the SmartFade ML at Illinois High School Theatre Festival last year, and was impressed. It's a really inexpensive board and is easy to use.

Considering I've had the Innovator freeze on me a total of 6 times over the run of 2 shows as an LD, I just don't think that the lower price is worth dealing with floppy disks and unreliable software.

[Studio]

I have used the Strand 200 Series 24/48 it is great for live but lacks a cue list. The Number keys are for patching but don't turn lights on or off. The 200 has effects and 1 scene/2 scene. It also has MIDI (if I remember correctly) and an optional video card (our video card is on order patching on a 2" screen is a nightmare but the video card makes it better.

Here is what youtube found for me:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUJPGZqM4ec[/media]

The lack of a cue list makes this board only good for live and not musicals/plays.

[Zach]

We have the ETC Smartfade 2496 at my high school. Lately, we have been finding that our shows have outgrown the 199 step limit to the stack. You are able to save and load stacks to SD memory cards, but this can be difficult to do quickly enough, nigh impossible, depending on the show.

Zach

Edit: You will have to judge if that is enough steps based on what kind of shows you're doing. We've only started finding it too small since I found this video and showed a bunch of people. Now the people I showed think that we can use our magical techie powers to make something identical in under 199 cues. For most things before that video, we were fine with that amount. It all depends on the teachers' expectations.

[Wolf]

We have the ETC Smartfade 2496 at my high school. Lately, we have been finding that our shows have outgrown the 199 step limit to the stack. You are able to save and load stacks to SD memory cards, but this can be difficult to do quickly enough, nigh impossible, depending on the show.

Zach

I am slightly surprised that 199 cues is not enough but each show is different. Have you thought about loading the next cue stack at intermission? Just do act I on a file and act II on another.

[cprted]

The lack of a cue list makes this board only good for live and not musicals/plays.

I'd like to point out that you can in fact run musicals and plays on 2-scene preset boards and in fact that was the way things were done for years before consoles had the ability to record cues independent of a technician equipped with a pencil and some paper.

[Zach]

I am slightly surprised that 199 cues is not enough but each show is different. Have you thought about loading the next cue stack at intermission? Just do act I on a file and act II on another.

For most shows, it's fine, especially because we can load new stuff during major scene changes. However, since someone (okay, me) found this video on Youtube and showed a few people (which, in hindsight, was quite stupid), we've heard "Oh, that is awesome! Could we do something like that?" way too many times. Of course we would love to do stuff like that, but with 199 cues can only get about 1/3 of the way through the song. One of the songs we were just asked to do something for would've ended up needing 1000 cues.

Zach

[cprted]

Edit: You will have to judge if that is enough steps based on what kind of shows you're doing. We've only started finding it too small since I found this video and showed a bunch of people. Now the people I showed think that we can use our magical techie powers to make something identical in under 199 cues. For most things before that video, we were fine with that amount. It all depends on the teachers' expectations.

You have to start telling people "no." I work in a road house where approx 1/4-1/3 of our rentals are local/semi-local schools, dance studios, etc. Some of them have gotten smart and hire an LD who designs their show and books a realistic amounts of tech time. Other clients come in and expect to program 250 lighting cues with MLs in an hour and can't comprehend why that isn't enough time. I wish I could pull a design out of my rectum and create a beautiful show for them in 55 minutes (thankfully our house hang is pretty versatile), but I am only mortal.

Also keep in mind what the show is supposed to be. Are you putting on a musical or a light show. You should be able to do a stunning Oliver in 199 cues.

[Zach]

You have to start telling people "no." I work in a road house where approx 1/4-1/3 of our rentals are local/semi-local schools, dance studios, etc. Some of them have gotten smart and hire an LD who designs their show and books a realistic amounts of tech time. Other clients come in and expect to program 250 lighting cues with MLs in an hour and can't comprehend why that isn't enough time. I wish I could pull a design out of my rectum and create a beautiful show for them in 55 minutes (thankfully our house hang is pretty versatile), but I am only mortal.

Also keep in mind what the show is supposed to be. Are you putting on a musical or a light show. You should be able to do a stunning Oliver in 199 cues.

Sorry to the original thread starter for accidentally taking over their thread, and I hope that we'll all get back on track soon.

I agree with you completely on all of that. In fact, we've already told them that it can't be done with the board we have. Time isn't as much of an issue. We could program it during class, and probably have enough time to do another (shorter) one as well.

The show is essentially a "sharing" of everything we've learned throughout the year so far. We've learned technical theatre, so we're supposed to showcase what we can do. So to answer that question, it's a musical and a light show. We've done SHORT ones in the past, but now we're being trapped by the 199 cue limit.

Like I said, sorry for accidentally stealing the thread.

Zach

[gafftaper]

Hey Soundlight how long did that video take to program? How many total cues in it?

[soundlight]

Hey Soundlight how long did that video take to program? How many total cues in it?

I don't have the show file for that specific show on my computer, but I seem to recall it was in the 200 to 300 cue range. All fired via the internal SMPTE clock of our Obsession (which is no longer, we now have an ION). That show probably took 30 hours to program, mainly due to the extensive amount of ML stuff that I had to do manually because the Obsession I didn't have palettes. It takes just as long to write the cues as it does to program in all of the timecode points and get them working just right. I can do shows in a lot less time than that now because we have an ION and that cuts ML programming time in half or better. Plus, I now use Qlab to fire some shows, and the others use the 1/100th of a second follow times in the ION.

[kiwitechgirl]

Also keep in mind what the show is supposed to be. Are you putting on a musical or a light show. You should be able to do a stunning Oliver in 199 cues.

cprted is exactly right - 199 cues isn't enough? In the last five years - working full-time in theatre - I've done a grand total of two shows which have had over 200 cues - one was The Producers (about 240 cues total) and the other was Miss Saigon and I can't remember how many cues that had. I'm doing Anything Goes at the moment and we have about 160-170 cues (not sure of the exact number as there are some point cues but then some cues got deleted as they were unnecessary - my last cue is LX158!). On a school show, 199 cues should be more than enough.....just say no!

[strandcentury]

Thanks guys, We were thinking of the PC alternative but are quite used to physical consoles and the ability to have full a two scene setup, but we will look into it though. even with wings... it just ain't the same. Now that you say it, the 200 seems to be alot like Strand's older MX line of consoles, my old school had one of those... really liked it, I kind of like the old Strand stuff better than the new. We would prefer to not go for Zero88 as our prefered dealer does not deal them. Myself and our lighting dist rep talked about larger NSI consoles, but apparently the come into the shop alot for repairs and like said the software on the Innovator is not the most stable and it still uses floppys to store data, we would prefer to use SD as the prefered storage device. Nice light show though soundlight... Never used an Obsession before, only ETC console I have used is an Express 24/48 (I use a lot of Strand stuff, can't get my head around ETC boards, but found the Express quite easy to program)... how is it's interface??

PS Do you think it is wise to pick up an Express (24/48) console used??? Whats the estimated price range for one in good condition.

[waynehoskins]

My guess is that you can find an Express/2448 for somewhere in the 3K range, maybe lower, but that's probably a safe ballpark. They used to be a 4-5K console. When they were still in production they were one of my first choices because they were affordable, had full Express memory and cue stack abilities (if you can patch down to 96 channels, need only 2 universes, minimal moving light support, and something like 600 cues, maybe 900, I forget), and had two-preset as well. Two-preset is quickly going the way of the dinosaur, and it's probably advisable to learn tracking rather than preset now anyway, but even still it's a good board. Just a couple of weeks ago I was in California doing a show and rented one because I couldn't wrap my head around the house's MA Ultra-Light well enough and fast enough for the quick turnaround I'd need.

Expression/3 would be the route to go, in my mind, if you wanted an Express but found it limiting. More cues, more channels, arguably better ML support; but same syntax, offline editor, and probably even compatible transfer disks.

If you're familiar with Light Palette syntax, the Obsession is an excellent choice. It has more channels and cues than you'll know what to do with. LP Syntax and Expression Syntax are somewhat backwards to each other, though I understand that the new generation of boards are more along the lines of LP Syntax. Obsession is inherently tracking as well, which is a plus in today's world of tracking boards. I bought an Obsession/1-600 for about $1500 on Ebay, but that was a good find.

Express, Expression, and Obsession also talk Etcnet(1), if that matters.

I can't see buying an NSI board, especially a memory board.

[TheDonkey]

Our blackbox/Studio mini-theater has a Strand 200, although it doesn't have a cue stack, if you read the manual 6 times, you'll eventually figure out how to use this feature where teh AB sliders control the change from sub1 to sub2, so you;d program the subs liek a cue stack then just runs it as so.

Otherwise, for our larger theater, we're currently running a Strand MX, which doesn't have a cue stack either, but can, again, C/D fade between subs. Either way, I'm one of the few that actually knows how to program the board for cues, so actually, most of our shows are done on 2-scene anyways.

We're in the process of upgrading to a Smartfade 24/96, but haven't actually seen it yet so can't comment on how well it works.

[strandcentury]

Yeah I know about the MX, I have used it many times, at first it was a little difficult to record memories, but sooner or later by playing around with it, I found out how to use that handy little record button on the top right hand side of the board. I know that it has no stack but you can use the AB faders to cycle through recorded memories. I kinda liked that wicked effects bank, it had built in effects but it was also easy to modify modes and steps. The one thing that was also cool was the AC/BD fade time faders next to the LCD. One thing which I had wondered was, the numlock key next to record button, was it just to softpatch or could you actually set channel levels with it? If yes MX is very similar to the 200... agree?

[TheDonkey]

One thing which I had wondered was, the numlock key next to record button, was it just to softpatch or could you actually set channel levels with it? If yes MX is very similar to the 200... agree?

If you go into SCENE(I think center key under the LCD) and you go to modify the actual levels, you can turn on numlock so you can just type in new levels.

It can also be used to softpatch, but there's no "Command line" like the 200, you have to use the arrow keys to pick the fader number, then type in the DMX channels that it applies to.

[Jeroen]

We're in the process of upgrading to a Smartfade 24/96, but haven't actually seen it yet so can't comment on how well it works.

It works very well, and does what it promises. Memories, stack/cue list, sequencers, with smartsoft on a pc next to your board you have a decent control panel for conventional lighting.