Can't find S4 10deg counterbalance...please help.

[NeenahTD]

We use s4 10degs on our far catwalk for front light. We recently purchased tophats/snoots to reduce the ambient light in the house when these lights are on....it makes a HUGE difference.

The problem, as many of you might already know, is that S4 10degs are already tip heavy and when adding a 12" square top hat (they're large and in charge!) to the front, it makes the light ridiculously tip heavy. This makes focusing very difficult as the light's tip drops multiple inches after it is locked down and makes it dangerous as the tip drops very quickly when you unlock it. As a theater professional, I have developed techniques to deal with the problem (focusing high and letting it drop into place....always holding the light down when releasing the vertical lock, etc....), but I work in a High School and have inexperienced teenagers focusing my lights....many headaches.

My co-worker tells me that they make a weight that is attached to the back of a S4 to counterbalance the extra tip weight. I have found what is called a "Boomerang Handle" which is made to attach to the back of a S4 to counterbalance adding a boomerang gel changer when converting the light into a followspot. This will not work as it sticks out about 1 foot from the back of the light making our catwalk a gauntlet of things not to bump, and sticking out too far to use on our electrics (it would extend into the path of our other batons).

I have heard of a donut-shaped weight that replaces the handle that is attached to the back of newer S4's (or for those of you with the old 575's, it attaches using the 4 screw holes in the 2 side-ridges extending off the tail of the light). This would be perfect as it would only extend as far as the handle already does.

But, of course, I can't find the dang thing anywhere. I have searched ETC's catalog, Full Compass's catalog, Mainstages' catalog, and all the things that come up when I google S4 accessories, counterbalance, balance etc.....and have found no mention of this product.

-Has anyone heard of this item? Does it exist?

-If so, where can I purchase it?

For my next show, I need to hang a S4 10deg with a top hat, shooting upstage completely horizontal....from an electric. As you can probably figure out, the extreme tip weight of the light is going to rotate my electric baton making a horizontal throw near impossible, not to mention throwing off the focuses of all the other lights on the electric.

-Without this mythical donut counterweight, does anyone have any other suggestions on how to accomplish this?

I am unable to hang a complementary light on the other side of the electric because of the downstage border so..............

Thanks in advance for any help!

[derekleffew]

That which you seek is was at CityTheatrical-Balancer. (Appears to have been recently discontinued.) Perhaps give City Theatrical a call to see why they discontinued it (I'm sure it wasn't the List Price of $368.:shock: Can that be correct?), and what they suggest. Let us know your findings.



As an alternative, I'd suggest any type of heat-resistant 1-3? pound weight that could be attached either somehow to the lamphouse or integral safety attachment point. As inviting as the "handy handle" looks, do not attach to the lamp cap. Your S4-10° bodies are of the "double-clutch" variety, yes?

EDIT:

... As you can probably figure out, the extreme tip weight of the light is going to rotate my electric baton making a horizontal throw near impossible, not to mention throwing off the focuses of all the other lights on the electric. ...

Batten. See the wiki entry, pipe stiffener.

[Footer]

Any metal shop should be able to bang those things out without a problem. I have never seen these things before, though I don't doubt that they exist. Learning how to focus a 10 degree is just part of life. If it makes you feel any better focusing a 6x22 or a 5 degree is even worse. I have hung bundled chain off the back of 10 degrees when using them at follow spots and that works pretty well to balance it. City theatrical sells a kit that is made to change a source 4 into a spot. It is essentially a specialized swing forward yoke with a good bearing mount. I bet you could buy that yoke without the bearing and be set.

I would try to avoid as much as possible adding MORE weight to the fixture. Your going to run into issues with fixture not storing properly due to the added width. Its going to take at least 5-6# to balance the fixture.

Give City Theatrical a call. If they didn't make the weight thing, they can make it for you. They have a great fab shop.

[derekleffew]

... It's going to take at least 5-6# to balance the fixture. ...

(And they said HS Math/Physics would never be useful...)
From the datasheet, it's 8.5" from the tilt pivot to the rear of the lamp cap. Maximum overall length varies from 27.5" to 30.0". How much does a 10° top hat weigh?, and how much mass needs to be added to the other end to balance?


EDIT:
Oh! Just remembered I've used this

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
to balance some followspots. The nice thing is it can be moved toward or away from the fulcrum for varying amounts of counter-balance. And has a ring for a tieline safety lanyard. Not especially useful on the aluminum-bodied SourceFour, however.

+1 on the focusing of 8x13s and 10x23s. The first time I picked up an S4-5° lens tube I couldn't believe it weighed so little. Kids today don't know how lucky they have it. Why in my day we had to hang lights in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways...


Not even the largest there were. Cannons , anyone?

[JCarroll]

Hey he works in a high school theatre... he could very well be talking about an electric baton...

[millamber]

Let's see if I can describe this correctly...

What you can do, failing having a counterweight, is refocus the fixture so the yoke is further forward on the light, thus changing the center of gravity. Basically if the fixture was hanging normally, the yoke would hang perpendicular to the floor, sort of like a | in side view. you would yoke the fixture back so the clamp is directly over the focus knob.

Here is a picture of what I'm talking about From Apollo's website. (this is for a Right Arm and a S4 with a scroller, but the concept is the same)

[fx120]

Let's see if I can describe this correctly...

What you can do, failing having a counterweight, is refocus the fixture so the yoke is further forward on the light, thus changing the center of gravity. Basically if the fixture was hanging normally, the yoke would hang perpendicular to the floor, sort of like a | in side view. you would yoke the fixture back so the clamp is directly over the focus knob.

Here is a picture of what I'm talking about From Apollo's website. (this is for a Right Arm and a S4 with a scroller, but the concept is the same)

That wouldn't help the OP, as the center of gravity relative to the pivot between the yoke and the instrument remains the same, which is where he is having issues, not relative to the batten.

[gafftapegreenia]

Not even the largest there were. Cannons , anyone?

That's because you didn't loan them one Derek.

[Sean]

Safety cable and sidearm Tees, clipped to the cast safety loop?

To stiffen the batten: top-hang a sidearm vertically next to the adjacent pick points, and lash it to said points (tie the sidearm to the lift line of the batten).

--Sean

[Footer]

(And they said HS Math/Physics would never be useful...)
From the datasheet, it's 8.5" from the tilt pivot to the rear of the lamp cap. Maximum overall length varies from 27.5" to 30.0". How much does a 10° top hat weigh?, and how much mass needs to be added to the other end to balance?


EDIT:
Oh! Just remembered I've used this

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
to balance some followspots. The nice thing is it can be moved toward or away from the fulcrum for varying amounts of counter-balance. And has a ring for a tieline safety lanyard. Not especially useful on the aluminum-bodied SourceFour, however.

+1 on the focusing of 8x13s and 10x23s. The first time I picked up an S4-5° lens tube I couldn't believe it weighed so little. Kids today don't know how lucky they have it. Why in my day we had to hang lights in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways...


Not even the largest there were. Cannons , anyone?

My wife's space still has those units hanging and circuited.

[Dsotm75]

What we do to counterbalance our 10 degree source 4's when we use them as followspots is use a two and a half pound weight, like the ones that come with cheap weight sets. Use tie line to tie it up to the plastic handle on the lamp housing. Works like a charm!

Is using a double-clutch an option at all?

[MarshallPope]

...use a two and a half pound weight, like the ones that come with cheap weight sets. Use tie line to tie it up to the plastic handle on the lamp housing.

That just screams "DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!" to me.I suppose it might be alright as a followspot, where the only thing endangered is your toe, but I definitely wouldn't want that contraption over my head.

[Dsotm75]

Oh don't worry, we only use followspots in our booth..so no crushed heads in the house!

[ship]

once made my own counter balances, can access the photo with dimensions and finished product if wished for. After done though I found out that ETC does sell such a product - or did back a few years ago.

Monday at best before I can find their part number or access the photo of what I made in doing so but ask if wanted.

[NevilleLighting]

That just screams "DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!" to me.I suppose it might be alright as a followspot, where the only thing endangered is your toe, but I definitely wouldn't want that contraption over my head.

If this is a catwalk type position you should not face much in the way of safety issues as any falling pieces would fall on the catwalk or ceiling. Footer's idea of hanging a counterweight on the back is a good one. Anything you can find that is not standard theatrical issue will probably save you money. Last resort, learn to focus high so you know how much it takes to drop in to place. Doesn't matter if it is high school or IATSE electricians. Just a fact of life. Aim the hot spot high, then adjust your lens focus, then make cuts.

[DuckJordan]

are your lights so loose that a top hat makes them too heavy, we have old clunky colortrans and even with a top hat and a gel scroller it isn't so heavy that it becomes problematic. either something isn't set correctly on your instrument or your technicians are very week individuals.

[ship]

Attached is what I did.
Otherwise, I don't know if ETC still offers it but I see in a 2004 price list their 400BY Balance Yoke Assembly. It's part number 7060A2028.

[GageStryker]

I believe you were looking for THIS? (HPL lamp for scale - I can't remember what lamp this thing took - think it was an FEL).

If anyone wants one, you can have it for free... provided you pay shipping

[gafftaper]

What we do to counterbalance our 10 degree source 4's when we use them as followspots is use a two and a half pound weight, like the ones that come with cheap weight sets. Use tie line to tie it up to the plastic handle on the lamp housing. Works like a charm!

You've got the right idea, but attaching to the plastic handle and using tieline are both bad ideas. The plastic lamp cap handle is not strong enough, use the safety attachment point. Attach it with a good quicklink or shackle. Then use something like a safety cable, aircraft cable, or a chain. Derek's product from harbor freight would be perfect, just quick link it to the fixture and you are done.

[derekleffew]

... I can't remember what lamp this thing took - think it was an FEL).

500W EGE, 750W EGG, 1000W EGJ. The medium prefocus socket predated the FEL.

[masterelectrician2112]

I believe you were looking for THIS? (HPL lamp for scale - I can't remember what lamp this thing took - think it was an FEL).

If anyone wants one, you can have it for free... provided you pay shipping

Haha. I might take you up on that!

[ship]

Haha. I might take you up on that!

I am and offering reasonable money for it (offline) plus a UPS account number for shipping. The heck is that fixture? Not my collection type but interesting none the less.

[Dsotm75]

You've got the right idea, but attaching to the plastic handle and using tieline are both bad ideas. The plastic lamp cap handle is not strong enough, use the safety attachment point. Attach it with a good quicklink or shackle. Then use something like a safety cable, aircraft cable, or a chain. Derek's product from harbor freight would be perfect, just quick link it to the fixture and you are done.

...You know..I will do that, that is a better way of doing that! Thanks!