Questions Related to Touring

[bishopthomas]

So, first of all, I am a concert sound tech turned lighting. I've been learning by buying and doing, and while that's been all well and good for providing and operating equipment for different events, it's a slow learning process and doesn't open me up to a wide range of equipment and concepts. So, it's time to take my education to a new level, and - just like in the past - that may come from diving in head first.

I used to tour as FOH for a band and now I may have a shot at going back on the road with them as LD. I know the songs, have gear to rent/sell to them, and can probably design and run a pretty decent show. My only concerns are regarding interfacing with existing house systems. They do mainly medium size clubs with the occasional tiny rooms with terrible gear and also large (2-3000) venues with great gear and professional house crew. So, what is the SOP in bringing a partial lighting rig and controller? I know with audio it's usually just a case of unplugging the house console and patching the snake into the band mixer, but is that typical on the lighting side?

For the smaller shows where they're running only a few dimmer channels it would probably make sense to swap out the consoles, but what about the venues that are running hundreds of channels of DMX devices? Do I use their console for the house rig and mine for the touring rig? There's usually not a whole lot of time for patching and programming, so maybe switching consoles isn't the best thing. And there's always the opening acts, which the house LD would be running.

Another question, as I don't fully understand the "universe" concept. DMX addresses can repeat across multiple universes, correct? So in this case I would maybe patch the house pars into one universe and then the band rig into another? Then I would never have to worry about DMX addressing as long as each independent universe was assigned properly, correct?

Thanks for your help on these seemingly basic questions. I'm really enjoying the lighting world, just wish I had gotten into it sooner. I am definitely behind the curve, and with over a decade of audio experience it's a bit frustrating at times to basically be starting over.

[Pie4Weebl]

In most cases it is easier to swap over the house rig to your desk and patch it into your show and work their house mover rig into your existing pallets and cues. For the opener you can just have a separate page of par only looks or whatever for the house guy to use, or just replug the desk in changeover.

In some cases if the house rig is too complex to integrate into your show settings you could just use your desk as a sidecar to the house desk and run them both at the same time.

You are correct about universes, if your desk fits into one universe and the house system fits into another one you will never have any "overlap".

I think you'll catch on quick and its just lighting. As long as the lights which let the crowd see the band never go off you'll be alright.

[len]

If you're touring and using house rigs, sometimes the house tech will run the board and you'll just tell him/her what looks to create. Sometimes you'll do programming and operation yourself. If the house has moving lights, your best bet would be to bring in and use a console which has excellent cloning abilities so that you can clone your show to their fixtures and get running quicker. You likely won't be able to change fixture addresses of the house rig. One key to success is communication with the venues. It starts before the tour, with you asking politely what they have and what you're allowed to do. The more interest you show in them, the more likely they will be to help you out.

[bishopthomas]

Thanks, guys. That's kind of what I was thinking. This is a rock and roll show, so I would definitely be designing, programming, and operating. I'll have to look into cloning fixtures. I am aware of the concept but have no idea how to do it (I'm using an Avolites Pearl). Although, we wouldn't really be flying truss with movers. They would either be on the deck, drum riser, or perhaps vertical truss. It all has to fit in the trailer behind the bus, along with all the other band gear, monitor rig, and merch.

[len]

Thanks, guys. That's kind of what I was thinking. This is a rock and roll show, so I would definitely be designing, programming, and operating. I'll have to look into cloning fixtures. I am aware of the concept but have no idea how to do it (I'm using an Avolites Pearl).

Fixture cloning is really console-specific. Some are better than others. I don't know how good Avo is at doing that since I've never used one.

Regardless, you'll have to touch up your focus points with every venue.

[mstaylor]

Are you going to be the headliner in a 3000 seat arena? If so you may want to look into having the promoter rent russes and some lights just for those shows. Those you can spec anyway you want them and not worry compatability. Have them supply everything to the dimmers and then you can just pick up the DMX and go your board.
The other thing you will find useful is advance every date. Talk to the guy at the hall that actually knows what the lights are there, board, taps and other relevant info. The best thing I have found is to have an Excel spreadsheet of everything you need to know and fill in the answers. That bway you don't have to call back and play the Columbo one more question game.

[bishopthomas]

Yes, we would be the headliners. A more typical venue would be a 1000 cap club (think the Recher in Towson, if you're familiar). I don't think the promoters would be willing to spring for the extra production on top of whatever's installed in the clubs. The band is ready to spend some money and/or I have gear to rent, so I'd rather make the money on the rental than deal with advancing a light rig through the promoter.

Yes, advancing the shows will definitely be a must - preproduction is key. Len, I will look into how to clone fixtures and change focus points globally on the Avo. Thanks.

[Pie4Weebl]

Yes, we would be the headliners. A more typical venue would be a 1000 cap club (think the Recher in Towson, if you're familiar). I don't think the promoters would be willing to spring for the extra production on top of whatever's installed in the clubs. The band is ready to spend some money and/or I have gear to rent, so I'd rather make the money on the rental than deal with advancing a light rig through the promoter.

Yes, advancing the shows will definitely be a must - preproduction is key. Len, I will look into how to clone fixtures and change focus points globally on the Avo. Thanks.

What I think he is suggesting is that if you do a date in a small arena, you'll want to have some sort of basic plot drafted to give to promoters so you can get something in the air, even if it is just your gel choice for 120K.

[mstaylor]

What I think he is suggesting is that if you do a date in a small arena, you'll want to have some sort of basic plot drafted to give to promoters so you can get something in the air, even if it is just your gel choice for 120K.

Correct, in clubs you can use what is there with some additions of your own. If you go into a small arena then you certainly are going to need to have the promotor get you a small rig. 60K front and back is a pretty basic package. You will want to have a basic show saved somewhere to run that when you have it so you don't have to busk it.
If you are going to be in the Towson area, Cannon Lighting might be a good place to check for this. Also, they have the same board so if you need help call George for advice. If you are in the Va,Md, De area get up with me and I can help you out.

[bishopthomas]

Thanks again for all the help, guys. I was planning on bringing some gear to a show this weekend for a sort of demo, but it looks like it's a direct support festival show. I wish visualizers weren't so **** expensive, or I would create the show there and send a video of it.

[bishopthomas]

Hey, guys. As an update, it looks like this is finally happening. I'll be doing a four week US/Canada run as LD. I definitely have more of a grip on things since I last started this thread over a year ago, but I still have a few questions:

First off, this is a co headlining tour. Some dates we're the last band, some not. I'm planning on bringing a small lighting rig (strobes and LED's on pipe/base), wireless DMX, and a console (Pearl with MagicQ as backup). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the venues (mainly clubs with some theatres) are widely varying in size and technical specs. The show is very audience involved and I'd like to carry a pair of blinders with me. However, I'm not sure what will be available as far as dimming and/or power at the venues. Some will have blinders installed, some will have spare 2.4k circuits, and some will have 12 cans out front and no power tie in. What would you recommend for the easiest, quickest way to make audience blinders happen?

One of my concerns is for FOH real estate. Many (most?) venues with enclosed booths have limited space for guest consoles and have been designed to fit exactly what they need for house equipment. Any ideas on how to gain more space? Maybe some sort of shelf? I'll be carrying an EWI work box that converts to a table but I doubt I'll have room for that, probably ever.

Finally, what lighting-specific gear/accessories would you recommend bringing so that I'm prepared for anything at these different venues? I have plenty of 3-5 pin adapters (in both direction), terminators, basic hand tools, meter, floppy and USB disks/drives for console programming... What do you find yourself reaching for on a daily basis?

Thanks for your help!

[chausman]

I've never toured, but just plain blank lined paper and pens, pencils, sharpies, etc. are always useful and never nearby.


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[porkchop]

The meter is essential keep that handy. Some kind of tape to write labels on (I like gaff, but that gets expensive). I'm guessing you include a flashlight, multi tool, and pocket knife in hand tools, but if not make sure you have those handy. If you're going to be using your gear with house power make sure you either have adapters to spare connectors to swap out (You'll probably find 2P&G, twist lock, and Edison connectors, theatre guys chime in if there are other common plugs).

[bishopthomas]

I prefer 1" white gaff to artist tape as well. Yep, all those things that go in my pocket/belt are included. That's a great suggestion about AC adapters. I will definitely bring some Edison to Stage Pin adapters. Thanks.

[Pie4Weebl]

two lite moles that fit on lep dimmer packs! Nice and punchy for deck fixtures, but you don't need to carry a rack with!

Also I'd scrap the pearl, for a console with cloning in it and better moving light support all around, I think I know a guy in NYC with a nice magicQ PC setup he'd rent you for the tour

[TimMiller]

Pearl has great moving light support. I have ran anything from little American DJ scanners to DL3's off mine without any problem. The dl3 was a little tricky due to all the attributes but it still did it just fine. There are tricks to the pearl to get it to clone fixtures. Also what version pearl are you running, there is a visualizer program made by avo (for free) that will interface with the pearl. They offer the schematics on how to build the interface for free also. For concerts I normally run an avo, it runs circles around other consoles, I will usually link up a hog3 to handle any media servers and such. When it comes to theater I will go straight to the hog. Also you can get a deal for a hog and pearl for less than what a grandma runs. Which is kinda like both worlds combined, but running a show a flipping through the roll-a-cue is just a fun time. Also on one line of the roll-a-cue I program some basic looks and give that to the opener. If they are nice, I will give them a separate page with lots of par looks to play with.

[MrsFooter]

As a house electrician with a rep rig, I've had countless guys like you come through. Some do it very successfully, some throw temper tantrums and go down in flames. Here are a couple answers and unsolicited advice that hopefully will help you be the first kind! (And if I tell you something that you already know or doesn't apply, forgive me, I'm just trying to cover everything that I think might help you!)

First off, this is a co headlining tour. Some dates we're the last band, some not.

If you aren't the only LD on this tour, then for the love of all things holy, try to get yourselves on the same plot. This will be especially crucial when going into a space like mine that forces you to work in rep. The more of the same gear you guys can use, the less work for everyone, and the cleaner your setup will be.

I'm planning on bringing a small lighting rig (strobes and LED's on pipe/base), wireless DMX, and a console (Pearl with MagicQ as backup).

Good call on the ground support. The less you have to rely on the house rig, the more consistent you can be in your show.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the venues (mainly clubs with some theatres) are widely varying in size and technical specs. The show is very audience involved and I'd like to carry a pair of blinders with me. However, I'm not sure what will be available as far as dimming and/or power at the venues. Some will have blinders installed, some will have spare 2.4k circuits, and some will have 12 cans out front and no power tie in. What would you recommend for the easiest, quickest way to make audience blinders happen?

(This one is going to be less for you, as it looks like you already have a handle on the concept, but more for others who might be in a similar situation.)

The best thing you can do for yourself is make sure that you talk to each venue before you get there and advance the show. Make sure that both you and the house are on the same page about what each side can expect from each other. I can't speak for other venues, but when I get a tour in I'm more than happy to accommodate what I can as long as I know about it in advance. Nothing peeves me more than when an LD shows up with 4 hours of prep work and 2 hours till sound check. You can also save yourself some work if rather than hauling your entire rig for every show you can make the house rig work for you.

Also, you have it exactly right by bringing the gear essential part of your rig. For the most part, you can make certain assumptions about house rigs: that there will probably be some PAR washes, likely some specials, probably a hazer. But if you absolutely CANNOT live without a certain part of your rig then bring it yourself. I once had an LD insist that he couldn't do the show without a system of S4s with heart/diamond/club/spade gobos in them. Too bad, since we don't own any of those gobos (or S4's for that matter) and had no intention of buying them for this show, either.

(Also, Pie's got it right, moles are the way to go!)

One of my concerns is for FOH real estate. Many (most?) venues with enclosed booths have limited space for guest consoles and have been designed to fit exactly what they need for house equipment. Any ideas on how to gain more space? Maybe some sort of shelf? I'll be carrying an EWI work box that converts to a table but I doubt I'll have room for that, probably ever.

This is usually an issue, though in our venue it's usually the FOH engineer that is the trouble. I would suggest that whatever you bring, you make sure that you only need minimal gear to actually run the show. Get in there, get set up, get ready to go, then loose as many of your work boxes and cases as you can. From there, do what you can and try to be as flexible and accommodating as you can. Remember, if someone's crawling up your ******* about space it's not because they hate you, it's usually because of fire safety.

Finally, what lighting-specific gear/accessories would you recommend bringing so that I'm prepared for anything at these different venues? I have plenty of 3-5 pin adapters (in both direction), terminators, basic hand tools, meter, floppy and USB disks/drives for console programming... What do you find yourself reaching for on a daily basis?

Bring your sense of humor and flexibility. Like you said, every venue is going to have a different set up. You're not going to be able to duplicate your show in every single space. Instead, try to think of it as putting up the best possible variation of your show. If you come into my space I will bust my ass for you to make your show the best it can be, but it doesn't change the fact that I have a 40 year old rig with 6 and 12K dimmers.

I hope something I said was helpful to you. Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

[JD]

Check out your local music store for Keyboard Racks. Some of those work well for stacking boards in tight spaces, and are generally not bulky.

[Ric]

Much as Mrs Footer said plus:

I'd ensure that you have a LOT of DMX cable, and not assume that your Wireless DMX system will work succesfully in all venues. Learn your Lighting desk/softwares softpatch so you can do it blind folded, as you'll be doing it a LOT. get the Lighting plans/patch info prior to your bump ins to the venue so you can potentially softpatch in your down time ( i.e on the bus or while travelling).

Work on your own gear being very high in dmx numbers so that if you're forced to use the single in house DMX universe, that you don't have to change any settings due to address clashes. Most venues have a fixed dmx range/dimmers and are unable (or unwilling/unknowledgable)to change their addresses.

If you have specific Gel colour requirements then make sure you have rolls of it with you to cut to suit gel frames (of course pre cut sizes are never the right size for THAT lantern), otherwise be prepared with colour swatch books & a willingness to substitute for what's available in house.

At our venue we're often requested to remove the FOH lighting & or sound desks in order to make space for toured equipment. It's pretty much expected as a possibity for any incoming show.
Make sure that any gear you bring in is SAFE to use, that you know it's working and how to use it /change addresses/ test for issues etc. as you'll be unable to get tech support at that last minute you need it.

Bring tape, gaff, electrical, markup etc. there is NEVER enough of the right sort or colour inhouse, especially when it comes time to bump out for rolling up leads.

Good luck !

[DuckJordan]

One thing to note, learned this from the guys touring with blue man group, expect the locals to be complete idiots. Not saying anything bad about the locals from the previous visit that blue man group did in the city just before us. But apparently they couldn't tell the difference between a DMX cable and soco...


(Edit)
See below for better meaning than what this has said.

[MrsFooter]

One thing to note, learned this from the guys touring with blue man group, expect the locals to be complete idiots. Not saying anything bad about the locals from the previous visit that blue man group did in the city just before us. But apparently they couldn't tell the difference between a DMX cable and soco...

Ouch, man. So by that logic, can I expect all road LDs to be pompous, inflexible jackasses just because I had one or two who were? Quite often the road LDs that I have the most trouble with aren't unqualified or unorganized, they're the ones who decide before I've opened my mouth that I'm useless and treat me as such. Coming in with an attitude like the "the locals will be complete idiots" one is a really great way to set yourself up for a really rough day. On the other hand, if you walk in the door with a smile, a firm handshake, and and attitude that says, "Hey, let's all work together to make a badass show!" you're a hell of a lot more likely to get the same in return.

[DuckJordan]

Ouch, man. So by that logic, can I expect all road LDs to be pompous, inflexible jackasses just because I had one or two who were? Quite often the road LDs that I have the most trouble with aren't unqualified or unorganized, they're the ones who decide before I've opened my mouth that I'm useless and treat me as such. Coming in with an attitude like the "the locals will be complete idiots" one is a really great way to set yourself up for a really rough day. On the other hand, if you walk in the door with a smile, a firm handshake, and and attitude that says, "Hey, let's all work together to make a badass show!" you're a hell of a lot more likely to get the same in return.

Sorry, i must have gone completely the wrong way with my post. It should say that don't expect the local crew to have a complete understanding of everything. I didn't mean to say it in such a way as to expect the local crew to be completely useless.

Sorry about that.

[danTt]

In my experience, I'd say it's necessary to prepare everything as if the local crew will be incompetent, because sometimes they are. When they're not, then things will still go much faster if you've prepared everything than if you are relying on the local crew to problem solve for you. I've had some amazing local crews, and some that are just college students that took the job to help pay through school. With the variety of venues you play, you will certainly also see a variety of crews.

[Footer]

Sorry, i must have gone completely the wrong way with my post. It should say that don't expect the local crew to have a complete understanding of everything. I didn't mean to say it in such a way as to expect the local crew to be completely useless.

Sorry about that.

Here is the big thing to remember when it comes to local crews. If your touring through a small venue and are just getting crew heads, you are getting the people that do the same job you do every day... there is a good chance they have been doing what you do longer and know the industry better then you. Instead of seeing one rig every day for the last 5 years, they have seen hundreds come through. More importantly when your not touring through their venue they are supporting shows at possibly a higher degree then you are supporting yours.

If your a larger show that needs lets say 10 people to put up, your going to get those same heads plus a few people who get regular work at that venue. The non-heads should know their way around but might not know everything. They might pull less then 5 calls a month at a given venue.

Then it comes to the larger shows that go into major venues and arenas that need 50-100 to put up...
Odds are you will get several heads that know their stuff. You will get a few regulars who pull calls at other venues and know their stuff. Then, you will get a friend of a friend who told the BA that they could work because they were breathing and had two arms and two legs. These people are really just straight up box pushers/neck downs. If they are lucky they might get two calls a month. If the union/labor org does not train, then they know what they know by working shows. Turn over is high on these call lists therefore very little training is done. I have literally worked side by side with a guy who got his start in this industry because the BA picked him up at a half way house in order to fill a call.

So, yes, there are local crew people out there that know nothing. There are also colleges that will double fill a call because they can. You always have to remember where these crews are coming from. Odds are they are not getting much work and training is little to none. Most this is a 3rd job that they do because they like it. They have no desire to make a career of it. They show up at 10am, push a bunch of cases, leave, show back up at 10pm, and push a bunch of cases.

However, each one of these venues have staff that are well trained and do know their stuff. On my first call list I have about 20 people, all with college degrees in the industry, some with MFAs and 30+ years in the industry. Now, if you ask for 20 people on a Tuesday for an in your going to get some people who might not know everything. However, they are all good workers and can learn. No reason to lump everyone together. No one can maintain a well trained crew of 100 people just to push cases. The guys that know stuff get out of that work quick.

[mstaylor]

As somebody that supplies local crews, in a small area, for a living I always tell guys during the advance of a big call that they will be getting a mix of hands. There will be some excellent hands, decent hands and bodies. The response is generally,"Just mix them up." I also do shows where I am going to other buildings and running the local crews. I always try to treat them right but I also explain everything so they don't have to assume information. As things go in I figure out who really knows what's going on and let them lead their cohorts.

[soundman]

In my experience, I'd say it's necessary to prepare everything as if the local crew will be incompetent, because sometimes they are.

Not the best way to phrase that but its a good point.

My current show takes in 130 people for the load out, counting riggers, loaders, and fork ops. Often times there is a lot of people filling out paper work at the call because its their first time. Doesn't matter, if I get 3 hands that pay attention and don't get lost in the shuffle I will be able to get what I need done. We are in Europe right now and I haven't had an English speaking hand in the last three shows but we still get what we need done. This is because during prep we spent hours taping and labeling everything. People pick up on patterns, no matter what language they speak. If you show them something once and it happens 10 times in a truss they will be able to repeat it as long as all the conditions are equal. IE the red connectors together, not red into blue except for that one which is red into green because I had to swap a cable and haven't changed the tape yet.

Also making it idiot resistant is helpful because some days during load in you will get pulled away, if its simple enough your hands can keep working with out having to ask you a million questions. If nothing else if you are a little hung over you yourself won't have to think. Thats nice too.

Little things like labeling a box USC drum riser instead of just drum riser can help because USC is always USC but differnt groups but the drum riser in different spots.

[mstaylor]

Filling out paperwork doesn't automatically mean new meat. Almost every job I do in DC for 22 requires me to fill out paperwork. I always make sure any new guy has his paperwork done prior to show day so not filling out paperwork doesn't mean anything either.
I agree that the better a show is prepped the better it is for everybody. The other side of the coin is having a hand that has some knowledge and wants to jump ahead of the system. If he really knows the routine hands should know what is coming next but should know to ask before forging ahead.