New Followspots

[MarcusL]

Hello CB,

I am putting together a wishlist for a medium sized (~700 seat) high school theatre and would like to replace our antiquated (to say the least) Altman Comets which I believe date to the 80s. One is completely broken and the other has lost most of its optics. The throw is 150-200' at a very shallow angle (our followspots are on the floor at the back of the house, one in each corner). I'm not sure what the price range would be, probably between 2.5k and 10k. That's a huge range, but it's the best estimate I can give.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

-Marcus

[bishopthomas]

What will you do with your Comets? If you need someone to take them off your hands let me know... Also, that is a HUGE price range, but at the top end of that you're bound to get something very decent (sorry I can't give suggestions as I am very new the spotlight world).

[metti]

I would seriously consider a S4 on a stick type setup. For that budget you could get a 5 or 10 degree S4 (or both) along with one of the counter weights, handles, an drop in iris, a boomerang, and one of the nice yokes designed for this sort of thing. As an LD, I almost always spec S4s for followspot applications.

[MarcusL]

The S4 solution sounds like a definite possibility, since we already have a ton of S4 bodies. The only problem would be powering it, since we don't have stage pin or twist lock at the back of house and I don't know if S4's can run on edison wall plugs.

Can they? If not, is there a cheap transformer or something I could get?

[Les]

I don't know if S4's can run on edison wall plugs.

They can.

575/750w @ 120v, nothing special about the power that Source Fours use.

The only issue you will encounter since you don't have any channels at the rear of your house is controlling your Source Four's feed. Unplugging and replugging it when you need it on or off is highly undesirable (unacceptable actually, due to arcing), so you will need to find a convenient and safe way to turn it on and off, maybe even with dimming capability. In my opinion, homeowner grade switches aren't appropriate for this type of application. That leaves using some type of variac, but the problem would then be getting it within reach of the operator so that it can be used seamlessly.

[gaffmaster]

Speaking from the perspective of someone who works in a high school theater:

First of all I have never had any problems running S4s with edison plugs, and there are generally a plethora of inexpensive adapters available to buy.

Secondly, I have always been a fan of the S4s as followspots idea, I think it blends in far better and does not make productions appear quite so obviously "high school" in quality.
StageSpot offers a complete setup of S4, handle, stand, etc. and their price for one with a 5° it a bit less than 1.4k.

However, with a budget such as yours for a new installation, I would not recommend them as your primary followspot. Where I am we use the Lycian 1266 Super Arc 400 (5.6k at StageSpot), and it has served us very well. I feel that although I am repulsed by their appearance, their is sometimes a need for a "real" followspot in a high school.

Just my two cents.

[derekleffew]

... The throw is 150-200' at a very shallow angle (our followspots are on the floor at the back of the house, one in each corner). ...

Before followspot shopping, I'd remeasure that throw distance, as it seems unlikely for a 700-seat theatre.

Would a SourceFour on a stick from an FOH catwalk position provide a more flattering angle at less distance?

[MarcusL]

You would be correct. I have a CAD of the space at my house and I just measured. It is 98 feet to dead center from our current positions, so probably about 105 with the rake.

I had actually considered a catwalk position last year with an S4 setup, but my teacher vetoed it because she "didn't want kids in the catwalk during a show." The first time she brought up this argument before the spot idea was to stop me from switching gels during a show because of our control problems in the catwalk. Regardless, I don't know if she would be any more open to it now.

Edit: One more problem with the catwalk. Catwalk lights, even when mounted on drop bars that almost touch the floor can only reach to a little bit past the mid traveler.

[DuckJordan]

your teacher is very smart not to allow kids in the catwalk during performances i actually have a story about such things. anyway, yeah go with the S4 idea, you'll save money and you'll be happier because since you already have S4's you'll have lamps already bought for them and no really expensive specialty lamps.

Now for the story....

During one talent show (cannot name the year as its still under legal stuff from school district). Some "students" ,and i use the term loosely because of the fact that they were really just a bunch of druggies with a passion for music, decided it would be cool to drop confetti from the catwalk (which is above a 500+ seat audience). Well during the public run (not of school kids but of actual adults) when they started dropping the confetti one of the "students" accidentally (allegedly) kicked a gel frame over the 6" lip on the catwalk. This frame fell 60 or so feet to fall right next to an audience member not more than 4" away. I from the booth saw something fall and heard a metal clash... Immediately going to our Tech director i told him that something fell from the catwalk and it looked to be a book or metal frame. So when the show was over i see our principal walk over to our tech director and hand him this gel frame.


Two lessons can be learned from this story...

1) Do not have students in the catwalk (if at all possible) during a show.

2) Do not under any circumstances leave gel frames in the catwalk if they are not being used.


/end grandpa's story time.

[MarcusL]

Wow. Luckily our catwalk is positioned such that if anything dropped, it would fall about a foot away from the orchestra pit wall and a foot in front of the first row. But regardless, I would like to avoid putting people up there if it can be avoided. I may be able to get the S4 in our somewhat cramped booth for a better angle. We've put one of the Comets up there before, so an S4 should be much easier, though they generate a lot of heat.

[Les]

I hate to say this, but I'm kind of against the Source Four idea. My reasoning is that since this is an educational environment, I think it's important for students to learn how to use an actual followspot. A Source Four can get close, but there are focus adjustments and other things that are unique to dedicated followspots. Even simple things, like running the fan for several minutes after you power down the lamp. I just wouldn't want to graduate from the school, only to have to be taught followspot 101 at a community theatre or college. SourceFour on a stick is great for secondary spots, truss spots, and more experienced operators, but as a primary and/or introductory spot, I don't think it is the best choice. The Source Four package deal costs around $1500, which can get you in to a decent spot for your throw. Even if you were to save some money and use your existing bodies, you will then be losing two instruments out of your regular inventory. Honestly, I'd be tempted to just get two new Comets and see if you can ALSO budget in the Source Four hardware -- that budget's between like 5-10k right . Whatever you do, K.I.S.S.

And gaffmaster, you DON'T like the look of a real followspot? What kinda tech are you?!

[Sony]

If you want a real purpose built Followspot, Robert Juliat Topaze units are around $7,500 to $8,500 and are some of the best Followspots out there and would be better than your Altman Comet's by several orders of magnitude. Otherwise the S4 on a stick is definitely really great if you are on a budget and want to save money. You can get a single channel dimmer like the Unibar from Elation which takes DMX or if you want Manual control the Slim Dimmer from Lex.

[calkew5]

I hate to say this, but I'm kind of against the Source Four idea. My reasoning is that since this is an educational environment, I think it's important for students to learn how to use an actual followspot. A Source Four can get close, but there are focus adjustments and other things that are unique to dedicated followspots. Even simple things, like running the fan for several minutes after you power down the lamp. I just wouldn't want to graduate from the school, only to have to be taught followspot 101 at a community theatre or college.

I hear this argument in a lot of forms and I don't buy it. Whether we're talking about lighting consoles, mixers, followspots, movers, or whatever, I don't think one should ever buy equipment that's less suitable for the circumstance just so students can learn how to use it.

No matter how hard you try, you can't protect your pupils from running into tech they don't know in the future. This is why instruction manuals exist. Isn't it just as important to teach them to go with the best equipment choice they can?

If you go with the source four solution, then you'll have students that will say: "Why don't we have a real followspot? What's up with this stupid thing?" This gives you the opportunity to explain that this solution saved you money, space, and time, and keeps the variety of lamps in your inventory down. Now you have a student that can not only run a followspot, but understands a little more about the logistics of the craft. And in a field where money is anything but abundant, there can't be anything wrong with that.

[shiben]

I hear this argument in a lot of forms and I don't buy it. Whether we're talking about lighting consoles, mixers, followspots, movers, or whatever, I don't think one should ever buy equipment that's less suitable for the circumstance just so students can learn how to use it.

No matter how hard you try, you can't protect your pupils from running into tech they don't know in the future. This is why instruction manuals exist. Isn't it just as important to teach them to go with the best equipment choice they can?

If you go with the source four solution, then you'll have students that will say: "Why don't we have a real followspot? What's up with this stupid thing?" This gives you the opportunity to explain that this solution saved you money, space, and time, and keeps the variety of lamps in your inventory down. Now you have a student that can not only run a followspot, but understands a little more about the logistics of the craft. And in a field where money is anything but abundant, there can't be anything wrong with that.

And then they get their first LX call and dont know what all the levers do, and have no experience with powering them down, etc. I think you should have as much of the latest tech as you can afford, while maintaining the ability to do the kind of shows you do (example, for a HS doing 2 plays and a talent show every year, a bunch of MAC 700s and 14 ERSs and 8 PARs is not a good idea). But having a followspot is pretty much something everyone should A, know how to do, and B, have done before by the time they get to college.

[Les]

No matter how hard you try, you can't protect your pupils from running into tech they don't know in the future. This is why instruction manuals exist. Isn't it just as important to teach them to go with the best equipment choice they can?

A followspot is a pretty basic fixture, don't you think? I think every student should be given the opportunity to use one as early in their education as possible, because they will be encountering them later. You can't master a giant followspot by reading a manual.
The SourceFour on a stick is wonderful, but the feel is different, and after all, we're talking about an educational environment, not a business. I can see your argument here, but I disagree with your application. Moving lights, tracking consoles and digital mixers are one thing, but followspots are something that every theatre has, most of which are not SourceFour on a stick.

I also don't think it is the best equipment choice. Keep in mind that the OP doesn't even have a convenient dimmer channel to control it through. The LEX Slim Dimmer costs like $300. Great product for the application, but not exactly what I would call economical.

I'm not bashing the Source Four idea, I just think that students will get the most out of their learning experience by getting to use the widest variety of gear possible.

Edit: Shiben and I must have been typing at the same time!

[shiben]

Edit: Shiben and I must have been typing at the same time!

Probably. I ought to add tho, that I dont have a problem with S4s on Sticks in general either, just in this application.

[Les]

My thought is that college or higher - great. Use the Source Four. Pretty much everyone there should already be familiar with a basic followspot anyway. But high school is all about exposure (this doesn't always mean making complete sense in terms of practicality - I mean how many high schools REALLY need an Ion and 288 dimmers?).

[calkew5]

I'm not against the dedicated followspot idea, just to be clear. I just wanted to put out another point of view on the issue. I don't think it's the end of the world for a student to miss out on learning a certain piece of equipment; after all, there's always the option of just pulling the levers and seeing what they do.

[Les]

Nothing wrong with a little friendly debate and some alternate viewpoints

[bishopthomas]

I just really don't get the idea of modifying a S4 to be used as a spot. It's not going to save you a ton of money, it's limited in options and features, and it's just a rigged up way of doing something that already exists in a different fixture. Believe me, I considered doing it several weeks ago but decided on buying a real live follow spot (Altman Comet) for around the same price that I could rig up a S4 with a fixed field angle.

[JD]

Guess I'll talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room:
Why not get a new set of Comets? They are good spots and if the current pair are too old and a mess, why not replace them with something you already know works in your application?

[Les]

Guess I'll talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room:
Why not get a new set of Comets? They are good spots and if the current pair are too old and a mess, why not replace them with something you already know works in your application?

Plus, you will have some spare parts!

[MarcusL]

I'm not opposed to new Comets, but they really match horribly with our lighting. I'm not sure if this is an inherent problem in all spots, but they seem really bad compared with other spots I have seen. Is this just because they are old? Or are all Comets much more amber than S4s?

[dcollins]

Spots will /never/ match perfectly with your general lighting unless they use the same type of lamp and optics - same reason you can't use a coolbeam fixture with an older fixture and expect them to look the same(like the source four par EA vs MCM, which use different reflectors), or use a new lens set with an old yellowed one, or an arc source instrument with a traditional instrument. This is one reason designers like source four spots - they can be used to make the subject bright, without making them look awful by discoloring them.

[shiben]

I'm not opposed to new Comets, but they really match horribly with our lighting. I'm not sure if this is an inherent problem in all spots, but they seem really bad compared with other spots I have seen. Is this just because they are old? Or are all Comets much more amber than S4s?

The lamp is probably too old. Not sure what lamp Comets take, but in follow spots I believe you generally need to replace the lamps regularly, even if they still work, to maintain a high color temperature. Now, if its very bright and still too amber, just get some CTB (Color Temperature, Blue) gel to color correct it to wherever you want, either to tungsten (about 3200K) or to daylight (what a lot of spots are), at 5500K.

[bishopthomas]

Guess I'll talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room:
Why not get a new set of Comets? They are good spots and if the current pair are too old and a mess, why not replace them with something you already know works in your application?

You're one smart gorilla!

[MarcusL]

I'll try to find another lamp. As far as I know we haven't replaced the lamps since I have been in school (3 years), so that might be it. Thanks for the tip shiben.

[metti]

I feel like it is worth noting that the reason that I spec S4 on a sticks has little to do with price and everything to do with how the light looks and the fact that I can use a scroller and DMX iris with them so I have more control from the board.

[techno89]

I would just get new comets, I just rented a few for my school show and the new models are great, I highly recommend them they use and MR16 I think but its very bright

[bishopthomas]

I'll try to find another lamp. As far as I know we haven't replaced the lamps since I have been in school (3 years), so that might be it. Thanks for the tip shiben.

You're looking to spend up to $10,000 and you think the problem could be the lamp needs replacing? I'll sell you a lamp for $10,000...

[MarcusL]

The teacher wants to replace them regardless. A new lamp may make them usable until we actually get new ones.

[DuckJordan]

The teacher wants to replace them regardless. A new lamp may make them usable until we actually get new ones.

if they are anything like our spots every 3000 hours you should replace them just because they work does not mean they are working properly especially if you have the voltage meter on the side you have to make sure stays in the green while running it.

[Les]

Re: lamps, the Comet uses a halogen MR-16 ENX type lamp, which shouldn't be extremely affected by age, unless the reflector gets clouded or loses some of its reflectivity.

The color temp is right around 3300k, which should actually make it appear a little brighter than your Source Fours at about 3200k.

Try also cleaning your lenses and check the voltage leaving the transformer. It should be at around 82v.

---

Is the Comet rated for the FXL lamp? If so, it packs a little more punch at 410w vs the ENX's 360w.

[shiben]

The color temp is right around 3300k, which should actually make it appear a little brighter than your Source Fours at about 3200k.

CTB will also make it seem brighter, even though it wont actually be (technically it will be dimmer). Higher color temperatures are usually perceived as brighter, so you can make you spotlight make an actor seem to be significantly brighter, even though all your actually doing is picking them up with a bit more high temperature light. Using CTB filters, you can adjust how much you want the actor to appear different than everyone else.

[MarcusL]

I am almost positive that I saw lamps marked spotlight in the storage cabinet, I will check tomorrow when I go in for a rental. This coming week I will clean them up and replace the bulbs. Maybe that will get them to let me move new follows further down the list in favor of some Selecon instruments.

[Raktor]

If you want a real purpose built Followspot, Robert Juliat Topaze units are around $7,500 to $8,500 and are some of the best Followspots out there and would be better than your Altman Comet's by several orders of magnitude.

This.

They also have internal frost, a very cool feature.

[tjrobb]

Our generation of Comets (bought a year or two ago) is rated for the 410W lamp, which they happily run for several hours at a time. So for at least a few years they have been able to run at 410W.

How's this for a compromise - get two S4's on a stick for spots and keep at least one Comet in storage. This way if you want to teach a student about purpose-built spots you have one you can pull out to teach them with. Except for the need to store the Comet, it's a win-win (if you count the "backup spot" it gets even better).

[Les]

Only one more thing to touch on regarding SourceFour on a stick.

Did you say your catwalk positions weren't suitable? If they're not, you'll have to buy a stand for each S4, which will be another few hundred each, unless you can adapt the Comet stands.

[Anvilx]

I suppose if you really want to teach them you ought to go get a carbon arc spot.
Actually there have been a few listed on eBay recently.

[church]

Re the comet, yes it is listed for use with the 410v lamp and works well provided the optics are kept clean and the bench focus is correct. the reflector is part of the lamp so should not be a problem unles the bulb is misaligned inside the reflector. the only way to check this is with a new lamp. These are high output short life lamps and are inexpensive.

The S4 on a stick works well. My experience of running a comet and S4 on a stick side by side is the S4 always appears brighter. The S4 is easier to use from a catwalk than a comet. For a stand I use the american DJ 9ft stand that comes with a spigot I installed a bearing to allow smooth panning - actually I have installed a bearing on my comets for the same reason.

Although the lamps used in the comet are an 82V lamp if you measure the the voltage at the lampholder without a lamp installed it will be higher than 82V.

As an aside this range of lamps used to be used in projectors and overhead projectors and the 82V was simply obtained by using a high current diode in series with the lamp - the rms voltage of a half wave rectified 120Vrms sine wave being 85Vrms. this gives slightly better output at slightly less life just like using 115Vrms lamps on 120Vrms supplies - you are lucky enough to have 120Vrms. I retrofitted an old Dynaspot with the same lamp as the Comet using the diode and it works plus you can use a dimmer because there is no transformer.