Conventional Fixtures - Altman 65Q problem

[decoss]

I have an Altman 65Q that I can't get to work. I've swapped out three lamps..BTL 500/Osram..and none of them work. A visual inspection of the lamps found no evidence of burn-out.

I disassembled the fixture and connector to see if there was a bad connection. There wasn't.

I visusally inspected the socket and didn't see any discoloration.

The fixture failed after about a five minute on period.

What am I missing?

[Les]

Maybe this is obvious, but have you plugged a known working fixture in to the same channel to confirm that the instrument is actually getting power?

[decoss]

One more thing...this instrument is almost brand NEW!

[Anvilx]

Are these known to be working lamps have you verified them in another fixture?

[decoss]

Yes I have. It has an edison plug, so I've been testing it at home in a known outlet.

[decoss]

Yes, I have tested them in other fixtures.

[derekleffew]

I have an Altman 65Q that I can't get to work. ... A visual inspection of the lamps found no evidence of burn-out.
I disassembled the fixture and connector to see if there was a bad connection. There wasn't.
I visually inspected the socket and didn't see any discoloration. ...

Aye, there's the rub.:shock: Sometimes electrical continuity issues aren't visible.

1. With the lamp installed and the fixture unplugged, test for continuity by setting your VOM/DMM to "Ω" and touching one probe to the connector's hot pin and and the other to the neutral pin.
2. Remove lamp and check by touching one probe to the center contact and the other to the side of the lamp's base.
3. Check the fixture's wiring by touching one probe to the plug's hot pin and the other to the center contact of the socket. Repeat with the neutral pin and the side of the socket. As long as you're at it, although this wouldn't prevent the lamp from lighting, put one probe on the ground pin and the other to any part of the metal housing.

If Test#1 fails, the problem will be either 2 or 3. If the problem is #3, a bad contact or broken wire, it may be intermittent depending on how/where the wiring harness is flexed.

What's that? You don't have a multi-meter; or don't know how to use one? Rudimentary testing of electrical circuits is one of the first skills a stage electrician should acquire! (Right after appropriate Safety Training.)

[xander]

Aye, there's the rub.:shock: Sometimes electrical continuity issues aren't visible.

1. With the lamp installed and the fixture unplugged, test for continuity by setting your VOM/DMM to "Ω" and touching one probe to the connector's hot pin and and the other to the neutral pin.
2. Remove lamp and check by touching one probe to the center contact and the other to the side of the lamp's base.
3. Check the fixture's wiring by touching one probe to the plug's hot pin and the other to the center contact of the socket. Repeat with the neutral pin and the side of the socket. As long as you're at it, although this wouldn't prevent the lamp from lighting, put one probe on the ground pin and the other to any part of the metal housing.

If Test#1 fails, the problem will be either 2 or 3. If the problem is #3, a bad contact or broken wire, it may be intermittent depending on how/where the wiring harness is flexed.

What's that? You don't have a multi-meter; or don't know how to use one? Rudimentary testing of electrical circuits is one of the first skills a stage electrical should acquire!

derek, you're my CB hero

[Anvilx]

Aye, there's the rub.:shock: Sometimes electrical continuity issues aren't visible.

Derek you beat me to it. And you just got bonus points for the step by step instructions.

[decoss]

Thanks! I tried all three tests and the instrument passed them all. In another thread I read about problems with the sockets in these fixtures. In poking around in the socket I found that the spring mechanism that seats the bottom of the socket to the bottom of the lamp was sticking so that there wasn't a good connection. I manually 'fiddled' with the spring to loosen it up and the unit now works.

What can i use to lubricate the interior of the socket. Spray silicone?

[dcollins]

If that's true, then the socket is probably also corroded. If it is, it must be replaced.

[decoss]

There is absolutely No corrosion in the socket.

[ship]

There is absolutely No corrosion in the socket.

Just freed up a Altman Q-Lite base with McMaster Carr #7437k15 electrical contact cleaner with lubricant. Not rated for the temperatures but so far in up to 5Kw Fresnels, including for the spring such was used on, no problems them as opposed to other stuff like deoxidants in gumming up. Craig Deoxidant perhaps I'm told in its various forms an exception for connection but not a lubricant. Some working in of the function of spring was required but overall what was stuck was no longer stuck.

[decoss]

It has been almost a year since my original post on the 65Q problem. Guess what? I now regularly clean and lubricate the sockets in the fixtures and they still fail regularly. First they, then they don't. I open the housing, remove the lamp, fiddle with the spring connector in the socket, reassemble, and le voila, it works again. There is no visable corrosion on the lamp bases or in the socket. I'm thinking that the newer 65Qs are just junk. I may try to sell them on e-bsay and replace with S4 parnells. I just don't trust these instruments anymore. (Yes, I tried Ship's McMaster-Carr contact cleaner. Did not work any better that just palpating the spring.

[decoss]

I skipped the part about the instruments failing again after my freeing=up process. They will fail as soon as 2 hours of service or cycling on about 4 times.

[Les]

I'm thinking that the newer 65Qs are just junk. I may try to sell them on e-bay and replace with S4 parnells.

Keep in mind that Altman did not manufacture the socket assembly, so it may be that their choice of supplier at that time was not the best.

A quick Google search brings up a direct replacement Ushio socket for $26.16. That's not much more than the cost of one lamp, and a lot less than the losses you would take by replacing the fixtures (even though having new fixtures is always fun).

US P28S #1001264 | USHIO | Sockets

It might also be worth a phone call or email to Altman regarding the issues you've been having. This may be a known issue and maybe they'll send you some new sockets. I'd try it - especially since you've had issues since (almost) day 1.

[JFine]

I may try to sell them on e-bsay and replace with S4 FRESNELS.

Fixed your post.

[decoss]

I did exchange emails witrh the support enginers at Altman. Bottom line, tough noogies! It appears that the Altman franchise is giving up on quality and customer service

[josh88]

Fixed your post.

Maybe his plan really was to replace them with the parnel?

[decoss]

You are correct. I'm looking at the S4 parnells and fresnells. More expensive, but much more reliable!

[ship]

Kind of well established that the Parnel is a different animal than a PAR or Fresnel. Also doubt it’s a plan from Altman to sell a ETC product. Customer service from any company is dependant on the sales person, if you don’t find one that will be of help, get another and fair enough.

On the lamp socket issue, perhaps I misunderstand in springs having good tension on the socket/base yet no arching. Also, non-cleaned or new lamps re-installed into the socket because a bad lamp into a good socket would show the same results. So if for example correct or not, you clean a socket, lube the spring and put a new or resurfaced lamp into a socket that has a clean plate and it works for a while than not.

Don’t know, cannot wrap my head around why such a perfectly good lamp don’t work in a perfectly good socket - this even with a weak spring short or arching. I would look elsewhere into the train of wiring/plugs as to the cause assuming the above should be a good connection and you have no indication of arching or heat damage with socket. These are good cleaned lamps or new ones put into the resurfaced sockets correct? Just in a mechanical sense, I don’t think this lamp/socket connection is your problem if the case. Good lamp and healthy socket, and in failing still without observable heat related damage... not the cause of the problem.

Assuming PARnels are not Fresnels persay - curious and useful, but more expensive. One might look into companies like L&E or Times Square for their versions of the Fresnel that could be different in end results for the same or cheaper price. That or wait for... believe back when ETC was working on a real Fresnel or perhaps that got side lined due to LED fixtures they are working on.

No burning problems seen in the socket area, why are the fixtures not working? Sorry if I also cannot help you in figuring it out due to centering on just one part of the assembly and system of power to it. Very limited the amount of info in this part not showing a cause for why they don’t work dependently yet don’t show a problem where presented that would show a problem. Good luck with the new fixtures... might solve the problem or not in failiing also and a lot of money in being sure about the cause not yet for sure known of the problem.

[derekleffew]

...That or wait for... believe back when ETC was working on a real Fresnel or perhaps that got side lined due to LED fixtures they are working on.

ETC has been shipping a real, 7" Fresnel for almost a year now.

ETC Products - Source Four Fresnel

See the thread New ETC Fixtures (Including ETC FRESNEL) .

[techieman33]

You are correct. I'm looking at the S4 parnells and fresnells. More expensive, but much more reliable!

How do you know the ETC fresnel will be reliable? They haven't been out long enough to know what kinds of flaws it has.

[chausman]

How do you know the ETC fresnel will be reliable? They haven't been out long enough to know what kinds of flaws it has.

Well do you think ETC is the kind of company who will release a product without knowing how it will last? ETC has a great reputation for releasing great products.

But, maybe sk8rsdad

(or someone else with some S4 Fresnels) could share his (their) thoughts on them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[derekleffew]

How do you know the ETC fresnel will be reliable? They haven't been out long enough to know what kinds of flaws it has.

Somewhat valid point, but since this thread's topic was originally socket problems, and there have been well over two million TP22H (-type) units shipped the past twenty years with few problems, sockets probably aren't going to be a issue. Historically, the manufacturer in question has been (more so than any other manufacturer, at least) quick to address and willing to remedy design flaws and manufacturing defects.

Hi - re: the Source Four Fresnel - we realized quickly that the bottom accessory 'ear' was too thick for the Wybron scroller plate, so we've fixed that so the Wybron plate sits completely into the slot. ...
Tom
Fixtures Product Manager
ETC

[ship]

But also valid point in how many 65Q fixtures have shipped since it even became a 65Q and thus before also in 65 series. It's a 6" Fresnel and showing problems in not working yet there is not a problem in the socket that can be figured out. This is a base fixture everyone has worked on at some point no doubt. Why isn't it working correctly in this condition different than any number of us that it worked correctly for in our conditions?

Just asking? New fiture solution before figured out the cause of the failure? Just seems like a problem not answered. That and the solution of the problem might be more cheap than buying new gear.


This is a lighting fixture that with all work don't seem to work after due care. Send me a sample and I will track down at least the fixture cause in problem and cause of it. I am not believing that it is the fixture type alone as the problem for reason for something that might be simple to cause the light to not work properly as per thousands of lights otherwise working proprly.

Sell them all off and buy something more expensive.. Yes and before understanding the problem.

Really, send me the Fresnel and I will figure out what is wrong in making it at least for that fixture factory spec. again in trailing down the problem. Fresnels are not hard.

[sk8rsdad]

Well do you think ETC is the kind of company who will release a product without knowing how it will last? ETC has a great reputation for releasing great products.

But, maybe sk8rsdad
(or someone else with some S4 Fresnels) could share his (their) thoughts on them.

After a whopping 1 (count 'em 1) opportunity to lamp, hang, and focus the S4 FRES7, I can categorically declare that I like them better than the mix of Altman 65Q, 75Q, and FE 6" Fresnels they replaced.

Likes:

• easy to balance
• no light leakage
• no gloves required to focus
• smooth beam angle adjustment using a mechanism similar to the S4 Zooms (easy to train the noobs) with an even field over the whole range (25-65 degrees)
• captive accessory holder (a barndoor or tophat isn't going to fall out when hung pointed straight down)
• single lamp inventory (down to 4 types of HPL, no more BVT, BTN, BTR)
• can replace lamps without the need to refocus
• noobs didn't make mistakes lamping them during setup, unlike the number of times they managed to incorrectly install a lamp in the medium focus sockets (push, turn, no the other way, what do you mean "it's stuck"???)

Dislikes:

• accessory holder door needs a rethink. It can be a two-handed operation to get the door closed. Some accessories (Chroma-Q scrollers) require modification to get the door to close, and the hinge tolerances are sloppy enough to make lining up the clips cumbersome. I don't think this will be much of an issue in our venue but for a long running show, or a rep house where filters need regular replacement it could slow things down.
• accessory holder is a little thicker than the 65Q so a few of our barndoors won't slide in.

[Footer]

Well do you think ETC is the kind of company who will release a product without knowing how it will last? ETC has a great reputation for releasing great products.

Playing devils advocate...

Early S4's had all kinds of issues with lamps falling out. The original "burner" design did not have the retaining clip that units ship with today. It was not uncommon after receiving a rack of lights to find half of them had lamps that slipped out. Granted, most of the venues I worked at back then were on crappy midwest roads, but the issue did happen. Worse yet, it the lamp was halfway out it would arc wrecking both the lamp and your socket. Both of these issues have been fixed with that pesky retainer clip.