The future of lamps, (and fixtures, and therefore, Everything), and also an upgrade q

[Nimick]

I'm curious to know what the consensus view is regarding the future of lamp technology in the long term. Principally in regards to how efforts to use more energy efficient technology might effect the methods we, as theater lighting designers/stage electricians, use to produce the light we design our productions with.

I'm thinking long term (like 20 years)

I've heard rumors about bans on conventional halogen bulbs coming down the legislative pipe in the distant future. I know that the potential technologies that we might replace them with (LED, HMI/HEI) don't/cant talk the same way a S4 does.

I'm currently advising one of the community groups that I work with about upgrading their systems. The options appear to be A) spend $2,500/4,000 on a used ETC express. or B) Go all out and spend $6K on an Element.

My thinking is that it would make more sense to spend the 6K on the Element because when and if halogen bulbs go the way of the dodo, an Element would be better suited to deal with new types of fixtures then an express.

Am I wrong?

[shiben]

Your better off going with the element because if they want to get any new stuff, they will want the increased control. However, I would not sell it based on the suspicion that stuff is going to be banned/not used. If there is a ban on incandecent lamps, you can be sure that there will be some form of exemption for the theatre industry, simply because at the moment, so few options exist to replace them. I would not expect dimmers and halogen lamps to go away in the next 20 years, or even the next 30 years. Yes, we will see LEDs taking up roles as wash lights more and more, replacing fresnels and PARs. This will happen very slowly, however, because at the moment very few smaller places can afford to get them. However, if the price drops enough, I would not be supprised to see wash lighting taken over by LEDs in the next 5-10 years, simply because they can do so much more than a single fresnel. As for spotlights of various types, those will be the last to go. Current LED technology just is not anywhere close to where it needs to be in order to replace a HPL750, and until it is and costs 250 or so per unit, adoption will not be widespread. Rememer, the cost of replacing an entire space to work with exclusively non-dimming sources is going to be incredibly expensive as well, as each circuit will need to be changed to a non-dim, and a vast amount of DMX lines will need to be installed to match. Any change that does happen is going to take so long its foolish to buy a board right now assuming that in its useful life you will have no dimming and all non-conventional units on it. Its just not anywhere near being feasible right now.

[Grog12]

I'm currently advising one of the community groups that I work with about upgrading their systems. The options appear to be A) spend $2,500/4,000 on a used ETC express. or B) Go all out and spend $6K on an Element.

My thinking is that it would make more sense to spend the 6K on the Element because when and if halogen bulbs go the way of the dodo, an Element would be better suited to deal with new types of fixtures then an express.

Am I wrong?

Honestly (and it hurts me to type this) the used Express would be bad advise. This isn't really a matter of lamps and the future so much as it is the fact that the Express is a discontinued board. As time goes on its going to be harder and harder to service. Also who know how "lightly used" that used board really was. I don't know what they're running for control right now but as much as I love the Express there's a chance they'll have to spend even more money down the line to upgrade again.

[WooferHound]

The way I understand it . . . The incandescent ban only applies to the standard household screw in bulb.
Here is a discussion about hording incandescent bulbs on another forum . . .
Hording incandescent and the "L Prize"

[Nimick]

Honestly (and it hurts me to type this) the used Express would be bad advise. This isn't really a matter of lamps and the future so much as it is the fact that the Express is a discontinued board. As time goes on its going to be harder and harder to service. Also who know how "lightly used" that used board really was. I don't know what they're running for control right now but as much as I love the Express there's a chance they'll have to spend even more money down the line to upgrade again.

They are running an overgrown NSI system, and control is currently a 24ch NSI Programmable 2 scene Preset. But they already have more than 24 channels worth of dimming capacity. Dimmer upgrades are in the works as well, but for now we are focused on better control options to utilize their existing capacity. They already have a DMX-NSI converter.

[zmb]

I think the incadenscent lamp ban only applies to household A-shaped lamps. I have seen some replacements that are a halogen lamp inside a A-shape bulb.

For LEDs, they currently work for wash-type fixtures, but a lot has to happen before we will see a LED Source 4; as neat as that may be.

[Esoteric]

Right now LEDs are great for washes, cyc light, house light, architecture, and as replacements for 250W moving head spots and washes. I want to see the new Martin fixture. If it lives up to the hype, then you are seeing a replacement for 575W arc moving heads.

Other than that you are back to normal lamps.

However there will be a usable LED spot light in the next 3-5 years if not sooner.

Mike

[shiben]

However there will be a usable LED spot light in the next 3-5 years if not sooner.

Mike

But its gonna cost your firstborn.

[TheLightmaster]

...if halogen bulbs go the way of the dodo...

[Esoteric]

But its gonna cost your firstborn.

Not really. LED wash units are cheaper than their conventional equivalents now. LED spot and wash moving heads are cheaper than their 250W arc counterparts. I would expect in 5 years time for an LED spotlight to be on par in cost with its conventional counterpart or at most slightly more.

Mike

[Sony]

I have to agree with Esoteric, the costs of LED's have gone way down. For example the MSRP on the Vari-Lite VLX wash unit is around $12,000 which is very competitive price wise with equivalent Arc source fixtures in the same output range lumen wise such as the Mac 700 Wash.

[ship]

Assuming neither board is discontinued, how old are these light boards that you are advising, and how many years does it take before such a thing like 1986 IMPACT takes full effect in removing all 150w incandescent PAR 38 lamps from household and most of the lighting industry? (There was and is still exceptions to that in still getting that wattage of lamp.) So assuming... halogen lamps some day get removed in general - the MR-16 used at home and store display case, thru the DPY and above used in the movie industry. Ain't going to happen as a general statement. What you are reading is perhaps mis-read as incandescent lamps and there will even be exceptions to them. Some halogen lamps are inefficient - say the yellow construction work light RSC based T-3 lamps. Fairly inefficient lamps and one would really piss off the construction industry if one was forced to go with the more efficient HIR series of the lamps. Such things perhaps if one's legislators are smart are possible and feasible in pissing off the construction unions against you. The HPL lamps... etc. for most stage and studio... look at the luminous efficiency and it's sufficient no doubt to be energy efficient.

Wouldn't base my recommendation off any part of no longer being able to do normal lamps. That's crap. On the other hand more dimmer channels and perhaps more moving lights for the new future will be needed as acquired. Your bid should reflect a say five year plan for where you think this theater is going to be by way of needing say more channels and being able to do more to control stuff. After five years the light board you recommend will be obsolite. Simple as that. Don't worry about the lamps, Halogen lamps won't be gone from the industry in five years anyway, what light board realistically does this place need in having sufficient capacity for its expected growth in the next five years? Expect in this five year plan to go LED and a lot of moving lights or stay about the same with some few more channels perhaps needed?

No changes from what you see and need now, more what you need now with a bit of capacity. That's what to recommend.

[PeteEngel]

as to the console question, that is for others to debate...as for LED's and usable framing/projecting units (ie S4), that debate is over. Robert Juliat is shipping the AledIN at the end of the month. it currently produces 60% of the output of the 1k tungsten profile, comes in 3 differetn zoom ranges and 2 different color temps. it's gobo projection is great! if people have dimmers, they could replace an 15 unit front rail (or more) with 1 relay module inserted in the rack to provide 120v to that rail. (no power from and actual dimmer. heck i bet most facilities have 2 circiuts of 120v power from a breaker panel in most positions anyway...that's a lot of LED lights). a single dmx run to the position gives control. i've seen only 1 other kind of LED. it was an ERS version and it's pool of light was tragic and i never did get to see it project a gobo. and it's output was 1/3rd of the AledIN. the best part of the LED Module for the AledIN is that it is mounted in the exsiting 600 series profile from RJ. that means if anyone had a 600sx, they couldjust purchase the module and bang, an LED profile. also, the Buxie and Cricket followspots from RJ are the same lamphouse as the 600 series profile, so you can also install the module in those units and have a LED followspot. output is still not quite where some units are at, but with the LED industry progressing in leaps and bounds, efficiency and output are just matter of time. i would think a short amount of time.

check out the links.
http://www.robertjuliat.fr/PDF/Docum...ALEDIN_vGB.pdf

YouTube - Robert Juliat at BLMC

the second link is te AledIN at the Broadway Lighting Master Classes. you can see standard S4's on the walls around the AledIN pool of light.

fair warning...i do work for Robert Juliat USA. that being said, don't ever let anyone say that there isn't a quality LED framing shutter unit (ours is a Profile, it isn't an ERS. different optics, but it does the same thing, only better) out there.
older installations can easily modify to use LED Products and new installations will be built with these products in mind.

i don't think the tungsten units are going away. they still provide a quality light. but as other light sources evolve...

[JD]

I'll go out on a limb here and say what I see in my Chrystal ball:

The big change in the next 10 to 20 years will be the move away from a central dimming system. I suspect the new architecture of theater will be distribution of data, probably along the lines of the star topology of Ethernet, where there are ports along the catwalk, and power distribution will be all non-dim. Legacy devices will plug into dimmer boxes much like the shoebox dimmers we see now, which will then plug into a non-dim and a data port. I suspect DMX will fade primarily due to it's topology, which requires chaining of fixtures, but will still be around and in use via converters. The bulk of fixtures will be LED including "upgrade kits" like LED caps for S4 and other legacy fixtures. There will probably still be plenty of discharge fixtures in use, especially in followspots.

When it comes to boards my crystal ball grows dim. Just look at the last 20 some years! There will probably still be legacy adapters which convert formats, much like we have for analog boards today. The real problem with boards is that components needed to service them often become discontinued. The one constant I see is that we will still be using assignable addresses for fixtures. Probably not the DMX universes we have now, but conversion devices will be available. I suspect addressing will be via the current IP system.

The driving force behind theater conversion will be electricity rates and possible laws about how much power a building is allowed to use. Remember, for every watt used in a light, another watt is used to remove the heat from the building. (At least in summer.) The true nail in the coffin for halogen lamps will come from the plug in the form of cost, as compared to the banning of bulbs.

[Nimick]

After five years the light board you recommend will be obsolite. Simple as that.

not if it still works, it won't. A Microvision (if it still works) will do everything a medium sized conventional only venue would need.

[cdub260]

not if it still works, it won't. A Microvision (if it still works) will do everything a medium sized conventional only venue would need.

I have an old Microvision which I brought out of retirement this year to act as a secondary house light controller.

Up until about a month ago, we had two seperate power and control sources for our house lights which we could switch between via a relay. The primary power source was, and still is, our ETC Sensor rack, controlled by our Hog 500. The secondary, and now out of service power and control source was a 60 year old, 50 amp, 240 volt variac dimmer. Well, it started shooting sparks when we brought up the house lights one night for a rehearsal. Sure, I could have wasted time and money troubleshooting and repairing this long since obsolete system. But why!? I already had everything on hand that I needed for a workaround to get us through the rest of the season. I had an old ETC Microvision F/X just collecting dust on an AV cart in my office which I'd been using as a DMX controller for bench testing my movers and I also had a DMX combine unit which I wasn't using sitting in a cabinet above my desk. Add to that a whole bunch of DMX cables of various lengths just sitting in a bin on stage.

Now for the question I'm sure some of you are asking. Why not just forget the secondary control and use the Hog 500? Simply put, so our light board operator doesn't have to stick around waiting to close the building. Closing duties rotate between six people, only one of whom is authorized to use the Hog. So at the end of the show, our board op brings up the house lights on the Microvision before powering down the Hog and whoever's locking up brings down the house lights and shuts down the Microvision.

Now for next season, I'm going to try to convince the powers that be in Pageantland to upgrade our houselight power and controls to something on the lines of an ETC Unison system with control stations placed at various locations.

[sk8rsdad]

Now for next season, I'm going to try to convince the powers that be in Pageantland to upgrade our houselight power and controls to something on the lines of an ETC Unison system with control stations placed at various locations.

If you don't need a lot of wall stations, the ETC SmartLink may be a cheaper alternative to Unison. A power supply in the rack ($350 MSRP) can support 4 stations ($250+ MSRP). In my facility, the SmartLink interface is set to a lower priority than the DMX and sACN ports, so whenever we power up a console it takes control away from the SmartLink stations. YMMV.

[lightdesigneranonymous18]

Well if anybody has seen Next To Normal, American Idiot, or Spring Awakening on Broadway/Tour, you have witnessed a new trend of lighting design. Kevin Adams is the light designer for each of these shows, but what sets him apart is that he actually made his lights. He uses neon/led or something like that, he is one of the Forbes 100 for furthering the world that is lighting design for theatre all across the globe. I think that Kevin Adams is a great example to use for what the future of lights and lighting design might be...and sooner that you might think.

[shiben]

as to the console question, that is for others to debate...as for LED's and usable framing/projecting units (ie S4), that debate is over. Robert Juliat is shipping the AledIN at the end of the month. it currently produces 60% of the output of the 1k tungsten profile, comes in 3 differetn zoom ranges and 2 different color temps. it's gobo projection is great! if people have dimmers, they could replace an 15 unit front rail (or more) with 1 relay module inserted in the rack to provide 120v to that rail. (no power from and actual dimmer. heck i bet most facilities have 2 circiuts of 120v power from a breaker panel in most positions anyway...that's a lot of LED lights). a single dmx run to the position gives control. i've seen only 1 other kind of LED. it was an ERS version and it's pool of light was tragic and i never did get to see it project a gobo. and it's output was 1/3rd of the AledIN. the best part of the LED Module for the AledIN is that it is mounted in the exsiting 600 series profile from RJ. that means if anyone had a 600sx, they couldjust purchase the module and bang, an LED profile. also, the Buxie and Cricket followspots from RJ are the same lamphouse as the 600 series profile, so you can also install the module in those units and have a LED followspot. output is still not quite where some units are at, but with the LED industry progressing in leaps and bounds, efficiency and output are just matter of time. i would think a short amount of time.

What does one of those guys cost? I have seen photos of their gobo projections, and they were probably the best I have ever seen, I can think of a ton of uses right now for them. Only extra feature I really want is RGBAW color mixing, but if those dont cost an arm and a leg, I could totally get behind them.

[ship]

as to the console question, that is for others to debate...as for LED's and usable framing/projecting units (ie S4), that debate is over. Robert Juliat is shipping the AledIN at the end of the month. it currently produces 60% of the output of the 1k tungsten profile, comes in 3 differetn zoom ranges and 2 different color temps. it's gobo projection is great! if people have dimmers, they could replace an 15 unit front rail (or more) with 1 relay module inserted in the rack to provide 120v to that rail. (no power from and actual dimmer. heck i bet most facilities have 2 circiuts of 120v power from a breaker panel in most positions anyway...that's a lot of LED lights). a single dmx run to the position gives control. i've seen only 1 other kind of LED. it was an ERS version and it's pool of light was tragic and i never did get to see it project a gobo. and it's output was 1/3rd of the AledIN. the best part of the LED Module for the AledIN is that it is mounted in the exsiting 600 series profile from RJ. that means if anyone had a 600sx, they couldjust purchase the module and bang, an LED profile. also, the Buxie and Cricket followspots from RJ are the same lamphouse as the 600 series profile, so you can also install the module in those units and have a LED followspot. output is still not quite where some units are at, but with the LED industry progressing in leaps and bounds, efficiency and output are just matter of time. i would think a short amount of time.

check out the links.
http://www.robertjuliat.fr/PDF/Docum...ALEDIN_vGB.pdf

YouTube - Robert Juliat at BLMC

the second link is te AledIN at the Broadway Lighting Master Classes. you can see standard S4's on the walls around the AledIN pool of light.

fair warning...i do work for Robert Juliat USA. that being said, don't ever let anyone say that there isn't a quality LED framing shutter unit (ours is a Profile, it isn't an ERS. different optics, but it does the same thing, only better) out there.
older installations can easily modify to use LED Products and new installations will be built with these products in mind.

i don't think the tungsten units are going away. they still provide a quality light. but as other light sources evolve...

Again as with the Selcon Pacific... what a three for one S-4 type of price range, and or given pricing how Altman became popular over Strand.

Still though, for me gotta get over the fake light concept of while LED.... what's it's CRI in reality? I do note it's not mentioned in also assuming that it's the same or better for color temperature and luminous output. Also given it will project patterns a well or better.

Details.... I can stick a LED lamp assembly into what ever you want. Details on it determine of good or worth while.

[sk8rsdad]

Again as with the Selcon Pacific... what a three for one S-4 type of price range, and or given pricing how Altman became popular over Strand.

Not quite a fair comparison. Most LED instruments include integrated dimming making the math on price comparisons a little fuzzy to say the least. Total cost of ownership (TCO) may be fairly comparable when relamp costs, power savings, dimming, electrical distribution and HVAC load are taken into account. The price/performance is not yet justifiable for a retrofit or addition to an existing facility but is worth considering for a new facility or if one is near the limit on available power or dimmer capacity.

[STEVETERRY]

I'm curious to know what the consensus view is regarding the future of lamp technology in the long term. Principally in regards to how efforts to use more energy efficient technology might effect the methods we, as theater lighting designers/stage electricians, use to produce the light we design our productions with.

I'm thinking long term (like 20 years)

I've heard rumors about bans on conventional halogen bulbs coming down the legislative pipe in the distant future. I know that the potential technologies that we might replace them with (LED, HMI/HEI) don't/cant talk the same way a S4 does.

I'm currently advising one of the community groups that I work with about upgrading their systems. The options appear to be A) spend $2,500/4,000 on a used ETC express. or B) Go all out and spend $6K on an Element.

My thinking is that it would make more sense to spend the 6K on the Element because when and if halogen bulbs go the way of the dodo, an Element would be better suited to deal with new types of fixtures then an express.

Am I wrong?

This thread has sparked an interesting and important discussion about the implications of new light sources on theatre infrastructure. I spoke on this very subject at the International Theatre Engineering and Architecture Conference (ITEAC) in London last month.

I'm attaching the outline of some of the points I touched on in that discussion.

I think your console choice is clear--if at all possible, find the money for an Element. If someone offered you a good deal on a 386 PC, would you buy it? Buying an Express in 2010 is a similar move.

ST

[ship]

Not quite a fair comparison. Most LED instruments include integrated dimming making the math on price comparisons a little fuzzy to say the least. Total cost of ownership (TCO) may be fairly comparable when relamp costs, power savings, dimming, electrical distribution and HVAC load are taken into account. The price/performance is not yet justifiable for a retrofit or addition to an existing facility but is worth considering for a new facility or if one is near the limit on available power or dimmer capacity.

So the final cost is cheaper.... perhaps you get some guy with a pickum up truck wanderning the neighborhood in search of stuff he can take to the scrap yard... Perhaps he gives cash for all these dimmers now obsolete. Copper scrap price in them for what you have alone surely worth the price in converting to the new system. Fuzzy math? Ok... you already have such dimmers needed so as to dim lights. Good retrofit end response. New place without dimmers.. perhap - this assuming the CRI and what is the name of the even more modern table for rating LED's is? Fake light at this point in my opinion none the less. Fuzzy math is my problem in replying to this.

New system... perhaps sure the LED style lighting in hoping it becomes realistic in lighting. Retrofit... worthwhile?

[Nimick]

If someone offered you a good deal on a 386 PC, would you buy it? Buying an Express in 2010 is a similar move.
ST

and with this quote I have secured an Element. Thank You Sir.