Light System Help

[sconosciute]

Hi, I work at my high school which was just remodeled a few years ago. After the remodel we've been running an entirely new system that we've barely scratched the surface of. We've got a leviton system with a 8724GX Light board. All of it works great but we barely know how to use it. We don't have particularly amazing fixtures, ETC S4's, revolutions, fernells and parnells (I think I spelled that right). At this point we still consider it to be the epitome of cool when we get to use our revolutions on a show. For any reason whatsoever. I'd just like some help figuring out how our system works and how to use it better.
Also some opinions on what's better fixture wise would be cool. I saw the Varilites and was thinking "And we wanted a bunch of revolutions". I've also heard of some mythical mover that's digital and can create shapes and colors of whatever type you want (so basically a projector with a 35,000 lumen output). If someone could confirm the existence of such a thing and provide a link, it would be cool.
Last thing. We have some (colortran? I want to say colortran. I know it's a subsidiary of leviton) DMX control boxes (we just call them black boxes) and it would be cool to know how to program them. I'd really like to get those cool new touch screen DMX panels, but something tells me that won't happen any time soon.

[sconosciute]

And I forgot to add, We really want new wireless clear-coms, but they're extraordinarily expensive, any alternatives or suggestions on how to get them cheaper would be nice.

[MarshallPope]

Just a couple of quick comments - Your "fernell" is a fresnel, pronounced with a silent S. Parnell should be parnel. The "mythical light" is one of these: DL.3 . They are pretty nifty fixtures when used well. Also, I would argue that there isn't really one fixture that is inherently better than any others. It's all about what you need them for. Would you use hundreds of fresnels for a rock concert? Not likely, though you might use a handful of S4s. On the other side of the coin, would you use 35 DL3s and a rig of 200 Mac 2K movers for Hamlet? Not usually.

[Anvilx]

Your first order of business ought to be to go to all of the manufactures websites and look for product literature, then spend some time reading it. This will tell you what you can do with your gear and how to do it. From what I can tell it sounds like a decent rig, but as marshallpope said it really depends one what you are doing with it. So what are you doing with it? Also Keep in mind is that movers aren't "all that", sure they are great for a lot of things, but I feel that one should really master conventionals first.

[chausman]

Well, the revolutions may not be the "best" moving head, (again, depending on what you are doing with it), the fresnels are great for color washes and fill light, and the source 4s are the most popular ellipsoidal ever. With more then 2 million sold (at least whenever the wiki was updated, thanks Derek) it must have something right!

If you post either pictures of things you don't know how to use, we can help a little more. Or at least, specific things you would like to learn.

I would suggest you look at the famous Gafftaper Method( use the search function to find it), instead of getting insanely expensive movers.

And, why do you want to get wireless clearcoms? They are nice, but as you said, stupidly expensive and not the most durable thing, and for a high school that may not be the best characteristic.

Be sure to ask lots of questions though, we love to answer questions!


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[KGDJ]

First of all, the fancy light you're thinking of is probably something like a High-End Systems DL.3 like the other guy said.

DL.3 Digital Light - Digital Lighting - Products - High End Systems

Now, it's all well and good to want to research things, but your high school just spent money on all this new gear: bugging them for MORE isn't going to help you out What you need to do is:

- download and memorize user manuals for all your gear.
- PRACTICE!

Once you know the stuff inside and out and can find the faders in your sleep, then you can start talking about the limits of what you have. Get as much time in on the gear you have now as you can, and you'll be amazed on what you can do.

[mstaylor]

It is easier to answer specific questions. My question to you is do you understand what DMX is and how it is used? What type of shows are you doing? What is the experience level of the techs using the gear? Basically we need more information on your system and what it is being used for.

[TimMiller]

I definitely agree with knowing your own gear. I have gone out on shows more than once to program and supplement rigs and have been asked by people at the venue what is making this particular effect and I tell them it is their fixture. The looks I get from them is priceless. I always hear we have had those lights for years and never knew they could do that. I have always had an attitude of if it lights up let's use it. I believe every designer should have this mind set. I have used rigs with dozens of DJ lights and make a cooler looking show than what I have designed based on riders. The DL3s are cool lights but not for area lighting. They have their own little niche for doing specialized projections especially when using the collage generator. They also require a powerful console such as a grand-MA or a hog3. I wouldn't run them on anything else due to the processing power involved. Also dealing with the content in them is extremely time consuming. Now a normal theatrical production i would choose different fixtures based on what I want them to do. Like vehicles lights are all designed for a different purpose. You wouldn't use a Camaro to pull a 30' trailer and you wouldn't want a Semi just to cruise around town.

[shiben]

On the other side of the coin, would you use 35 DL3s and a rig of 200 Mac 2K movers for Hamlet? Not usually.

That would be an insane version of hamlet. Im in, if anyone wants to do it.

However, to the OP: Source 4s are great, kind of a "Standard" theatrical fixture. Good for a lot of things, drop a gobo in there and you make texture, drop some color and some frost you have a nice wash, harden the edge and you have a nice little special... If your doing concerts and such, good for throwing a special on each of the band members and leaving at 50 or so unless they start shredding out a sweet solo, in which case bring it up a bit. Also good for front, back, side and top washes of color or texture. Fresnels are also great, but mainly as a wash fixture. IMO, toss at least 2 over any "lighting area", one warm and the other cool. Add more if you want a sweet green wash, or any other color really. Also really good for specials, for that leading lady kneeling by her bed after she kills her grandpa, a Fresnel right on top can just really make the moment. Nice soft edges, with a bit of frost they can be even softer, making a really nice pool of light. Drop in a barndoor for more control. If you dont have a lot of barn doors, get those before you get some VariLites or Macs. The ParNel: Nice for backlight, I personally like them. Makes focusing a backlight or toplight wash a breeze, just twist the thingy and make the pool the size you need! Great for dumping some serious color on the stage. Pop those on your farthest US LX pipe and make everyone shine colors! Your Revolutions can be used for tons of things. Not by far the most popular ML, but a ML none the less, and it works. Use for specials that can be re-focused (instead of only being able to hit the above lady at her bed, you can also hit her while shes killing the grandpa!) Also nice for some "flash and trash" (hereafter referred to F&T), or making lots of cool light effects for the school talent show, where most of the talent is convincing people to pay good money to come see it. Nothing makes a building chorus better than a huge audience ballyhoo right at the top.

Things I would look into: Learn about the McCandles method. A good way to light the stage for theater (well, to start). I like using something like R302 for my warm, and something like R62 for my cool. This is the bit where I deviate from the "method" and add some more fun stuff: I then add a N/C light dead on, and sometimes add a "deeper" blue (theres a great color by Lee for this, cant remember the number off the top of my head...) if I have a lot of night scenes, right next to my straight on light. I personally focus hard and drop frost, its easier than trying to match with running lens tubes on the S4. Next, I add at least a warm and a cool top wash, sometimes more than 2 colors if Im feeling fancy (or the lead actress needs to look bloody when doing murder), and some backlight in as many colors as I can make happen. I like using backlight to color because it changes the mood without making anyone too hard to see, and also makes a really cool effect in our actress's crazy hair. Side light is also good, I like throwing some gobos in S4s, and shooting them across the stage to make pretty texture. Ill then drop some colors or add scrollers to make pretty colors. There are various theories about where to put MLs for plays. I have never actually used a VL or Mac or Rev in one, but I imagine I would do the same as when I use I-Cues (a horrible little mirror that can be moved around the stage). I like to have 2-3 DS in my FoH catwalk, for moving specials, and then multiples of 2 over the stage, to add moving side highlights to the special. For R&R, Dump all your ParNels and Fresnels on your Upstage most electric, and color in Red, Blue, Amber and Green. I like adding a bunch of N/C as well, but you can do that with S4s if you have to. From the front, a blue, amber and red wash will usually serve you well, along with the a fore mentioned specials on the band members. Flash backlight, and make your Revs do things like flash and ballyhoo and throw gobos around, change color, etc in the time before you load out the band. Last of all, Have fun with it, because its making art! The more you learn your gear, the more art you can make! So learn your gear, try stuff out, screw the pooch (make mistakes), and learn the art, because this is how you make it. If you do it well, others from your school will do the same, and your lighting system (which sounds pretty darn good, FWIW) will be used to its maximum potential for years to come.

Oh and on the topic of wanting VLs and DL3s: For many years they lit plays with fire. Then they got lights. For years they lit concerts with huge piles of PARs, no movers at all. Many plays STILL dont use movers, and many that do use them more as "I can focus this many places and ____(insert name of house) in _____ (insert name of city) cant screw that up!!!!" instead of doing tons of cool stuff with them. You could make tons of art without your Revs, so dont worry about getting the newer VLs or DL3s which you REALLY dont need yet. Leave that to BonJovi or someone who has tons more money and the taste to put robots with video screens on stage. Make better art, not cooler effects.

[SteveB]

Just a couple of quick comments - Your "fernell" is a fresnel, pronounced with a silent S. Parnell should be parnel.

I would venture that this should be an acceptable spelling for those CB members residing south of the Mason-Dixon line, in keeping with the local pronunciation.

[Nelson]

Just to be picky, isn't Fresnel supposed to be capitalized? Fresnel is named after the French(?) inventor, so it is a proper noun.

[Esoteric]

But in this case it is a type of lighting instrument, not a proper noun. Now ETC Fresnel is a specific kind of fresnel, so maybe it is capitalized?

I also have always seen it as PARnel (from the capitalizing of PAR in PARcan).

By the way, I would love to do that Hamlet. I once did Romeo and Juliet with about a half mile of neon.

Mike

[VCTMike]

But in this case it is a type of lighting instrument, not a proper noun. Now ETC Fresnel is a specific kind of fresnel, so maybe it is capitalized?

I also have always seen it as PARnel (from the capitalizing of PAR in PARcan).

By the way, I would love to do that Hamlet. I once did Romeo and Juliet with about a half mile of neon.

Mike

Getting a little off-topic here, but we're putting up Twelfth Night later this year - modernized and gender reversed. Ought to be something.

[mstaylor]

I would venture that this should be an acceptable spelling for those CB members residing south of the Mason-Dixon line, in keeping with the local pronunciation.

Hey, ease up on the south of the M-D line cracks. I'm seven miles south.

[shiben]

Hey, ease up on the south of the M-D line cracks. I'm seven miles south.

Wrong side... ;-)

[Les]

Shiben, what you describe regarding the McCandless method is a more advanced version than I'm used to. I always thought of McCandless as three-point lighting -- warm and cool front lights (usually ellipsoidals) ~45 degrees off center from the area (one per side); and a neutral toplight (sometimes an open-white fresnel).

I find this to be a good "quick-n-dirty" solution for simple productions, generally adding broader washes or whatever specials after I achieve acceptable area lighting.

[shiben]

Shiben, what you describe regarding the McCandless method is a more advanced version than I'm used to. I always thought of McCandless as three-point lighting -- warm and cool front lights (usually ellipsoidals) ~45 degrees off center from the area (one per side); and a neutral toplight (sometimes an open-white fresnel).

I find this to be a good "quick-n-dirty" solution for simple productions, generally adding broader washes or whatever specials after I achieve acceptable area lighting.

Oh yeah, thats what we might call the Shiben method. Its basically McCandles hit with some Jewel lighting, When you hang the entire thing and leave color out, you can walk on, focus some specials, drop some color and go to town. I have found McCandless without some jazz to it, although quick and dirty, just feels pretty boring and stale, and I figure if your gonna hang a rep plot, hang in some stuff that makes fun light too, because otherwise it gets forgotten...

[sconosciute]

Well, the revolutions may not be the "best" moving head, (again, depending on what you are doing with it), the fresnels are great for color washes and fill light, and the source 4s are the most popular ellipsoidal ever. With more then 2 million sold (at least whenever the wiki was updated, thanks Derek) it must have something right!

If you post either pictures of things you don't know how to use, we can help a little more. Or at least, specific things you would like to learn.

I would suggest you look at the famous Gafftaper Method( use the search function to find it), instead of getting insanely expensive movers.

And, why do you want to get wireless clearcoms? They are nice, but as you said, stupidly expensive and not the most durable thing, and for a high school that may not be the best characteristic.

Be sure to ask lots of questions though, we love to answer questions!


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I will get some pictures and post them. The wireless clear coms are mainly for the mobility issue. Our people backstage are having to constantly be off to go handle things, a wireless clear com would be great, and if the Sm could have one she could be talking anywhere in the theatre, and OUr spot operators basically act as ushers and bouncers when not spotting. We're pretty good with all of our equipment. We have a permanent tech crew (pay roll, interviews, things like that) and are trained as we come in to handle with care and use gaff tape if it doesn't work. It's like duct tape. But in a theater.

[sconosciute]

So when you guys say frost are you talking about diffusers? I think it's the same. We have lenses and gels to do that and I love them and next year when I have control of the lighting I will use them.

We just finished a run of Hairspray, and it was the first time we used the revolutions for an event, let alone a show. Before that they had just been a fun toy.

Are Fresnels and Parnels only for overhead lighting, or can they be used as fronts. I know we have this one light that acts like a spot no matter how far you shoot it or how steep the angle, is that the parnel?

As for DMX, I know it's what we use to control the lights and that it uses cords that look like mic cords except when you get to the batten, then it's a totally different cord to hook up to the light. How it actually works, I'm still a little fuzzy on.

Our main reason for wanting a ton of movers (Why I went crazy when I say vl's and the DL3) was to have a show where we could change the entire lighting scheme every scene, no need to be constantly keeping track of which front(all of our fronts are source fours except for the 2 revolutions) points where and which isn't used and the like, just point, shoot, record.

Also, next year we're doing Chicago (One of my favorite musicals) and I want it to be absolutely perfect, so I'm trying to learn how to make our system do amazing things. I kind of had this vision of these red movers running across the stage to focus on the dancers in cell block tango then zoom out to create a red wash on the stage w/ some overhead amber to soften it on them. One of the reasons I really wanted more movers.

Does anyone know how to program those black boxes, by the way, it's a bit of a pet project for all the lighting people at my school. ALL of us. We have a program on our desktop called lumaedit that seems to be for that, but it doesn't contain any kind of DMX programming aspect, just customizing menus and internal settings. Also, I've wanted to replace them with this (DMX Touch Screen > Entertainment Lighting Controls > Commercial Lighting > All Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products) and was wondering if it was actually the same type of thing.

And does anyone know what lumanet/colornet/hydranet are? We keep seeing these things and we're trying to figure these out, but to no avail. Our board and our computer both say things about hydranet in connection windows.

Tomorrow I'll get pictures of the theatre and some of the equipment.

Also, any more light design knowledge on here would be awesome, or if someone could direct me to another part of the forum where that kind of stuff is it would be great.

Thanks for all the responses!

PS I read the gafftaper method. Sound functional.

[sconosciute]

Also if someone could tell me how to compare watts to lumens I would be very grateful.

[chausman]

So when you guys say frost are you talking about diffusers? I think it's the same. We have lenses and gels to do that and I love them and next year when I have control of the lighting I will use them. As far as I know, they are the same thing (there is no Wiki entry for either)

We just finished a run of Hairspray, and it was the first time we used the revolutions for an event, let alone a show. Before that they had just been a fun toy. Aren't most!
Are Fresnels and Parnels only for overhead lighting, or can they be used as fronts. I know we have this one light that acts like a spot no matter how far you shoot it or how steep the angle, is that the parnel? When your designing, you can use whatever fixture you want for whatever you want it to do, assuming you have enough time to hang/focus and decide if it really does what you want it to. If you have source 4s, I'de use those primarily for front lighting, and use fresnels for colors or toplight.

As for DMX, I know it's what we use to control the lights and that it uses cords that look like mic cords except when you get to the batten, then it's a totally different cord to hook up to the light. How it actually works, I'm still a little fuzzy on. DMX has a dotted yellow line below it, that means that there is a wiki entry (CB's dictionary) and it has a very good description of DMX. (from the same person that brought you the Gafftaper Method) a search of DMX brings a lot of information.

Our main reason for wanting a ton of movers (Why I went crazy when I say vl's and the DL3) was to have a show where we could change the entire lighting scheme every scene, no need to be constantly keeping track of which front(all of our fronts are source fours except for the 2 revolutions) points where and which isn't used and the like, just point, shoot, record. Mover a great, and have their place, but if you are still learning about using the conventional s you have, I would suggest you get those done really well, and then move on to more advanced consoles, fixtures, and cue lists. Depending on what you have as far as fixture, dimmer, and channel counts, you could have the ability to have a very flexible system. I'd say, start with McCandless and then add specials everywhere you want something "extra"

Also, next year we're doing Chicago (One of my favorite musicals) and I want it to be absolutely perfect, so I'm trying to learn how to make our system do amazing things. I kind of had this vision of these red movers running across the stage to focus on the dancers in cell block tango then zoom out to create a red wash on the stage w/ some overhead amber to soften it on them. One of the reasons I really wanted more movers. If you have followspots, put some red gel in them, and use them in place of movers. From what I have heard, the revolutions aren't the fastest fixtures, but they could be used.

Does anyone know how to program those black boxes, by the way, it's a bit of a pet project for all the lighting people at my school. ALL of us. We have a program on our desktop called lumaedit that seems to be for that, but it doesn't contain any kind of DMX programming aspect, just customizing menus and internal settings. Also, I've wanted to replace them with this (DMX Touch Screen > Entertainment Lighting Controls > Commercial Lighting > All Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products) and was wondering if it was actually the same type of thing. Without knowing what the "black boxes" are, we can't really help with that. We(as in everyone on cb) can discuss that later.

And does anyone know what lumanet/colornet/hydranet are? We keep seeing these things and we're trying to figure these out, but to no avail. Our board and our computer both say things about hydranet in connection windows. Most likely, what the entire lighting system uses to communicate with. I'd be careful messing with them, unless you are sure you know what you are doing. If I am correct, and it is part of a network, then you can do a lot of damage that would be time consuming (and possibly expensive) to fix.

Tomorrow I'll get pictures of the theatre and some of the equipment. Thanks!

Also, any more light design knowledge on here would be awesome, or if someone could direct me to another part of the forum where that kind of stuff is it would be great. The search function is a powerful tool. We have a lot of professionals and students alike who seem to be all to eager to help solve problems. And, anything that has a dotted, yellow underline, will take you do the wiki.

Thanks for all the responses!

PS I read the gafftaper method. Sounds functional.

[mstaylor]

From my understanding, the lumaedit is a portion of Lumanet, Leviton's interface software to talk to different protocols, DMX and RS232. Lumaedit is the offline editor.

[shiben]

And I forgot to add, We really want new wireless clear-coms, but they're extraordinarily expensive, any alternatives or suggestions on how to get them cheaper would be nice.

Well, you might be able to convince a local college or professional theater thats upgrading their com units to give them to you as a donation, same with MLs and whatnot, but I wouldnt expect that. Probably the cheapest way to get them. otherwise, figure out how to fit it into the budget over a couple years and build your system slowly... Otherwise you could always steal them, but Im sure many different people would have issues with that plan, and I dont endorse it. And lawyers are not cheap, so its not even the cheap route.

[MarshallPope]

So when you guys say frost are you talking about diffusers? I think it's the same. We have lenses and gels to do that and I love them and next year when I have control of the lighting I will use them.

At least in Marshall-Terminology, frost is a specific type of diffusion media, one that is less drastic than some.

[shiben]

So when you guys say frost are you talking about diffusers? I think it's the same. We have lenses and gels to do that and I love them and next year when I have control of the lighting I will use them.

We just finished a run of Hairspray, and it was the first time we used the revolutions for an event, let alone a show. Before that they had just been a fun toy.

Are Fresnels and Parnels only for overhead lighting, or can they be used as fronts. I know we have this one light that acts like a spot no matter how far you shoot it or how steep the angle, is that the parnel?

As for DMX, I know it's what we use to control the lights and that it uses cords that look like mic cords except when you get to the batten, then it's a totally different cord to hook up to the light. How it actually works, I'm still a little fuzzy on.

Our main reason for wanting a ton of movers (Why I went crazy when I say vl's and the DL3) was to have a show where we could change the entire lighting scheme every scene, no need to be constantly keeping track of which front(all of our fronts are source fours except for the 2 revolutions) points where and which isn't used and the like, just point, shoot, record.

Also, next year we're doing Chicago (One of my favorite musicals) and I want it to be absolutely perfect, so I'm trying to learn how to make our system do amazing things. I kind of had this vision of these red movers running across the stage to focus on the dancers in cell block tango then zoom out to create a red wash on the stage w/ some overhead amber to soften it on them. One of the reasons I really wanted more movers.

Does anyone know how to program those black boxes, by the way, it's a bit of a pet project for all the lighting people at my school. ALL of us. We have a program on our desktop called lumaedit that seems to be for that, but it doesn't contain any kind of DMX programming aspect, just customizing menus and internal settings. Also, I've wanted to replace them with this (DMX Touch Screen > Entertainment Lighting Controls > Commercial Lighting > All Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products) and was wondering if it was actually the same type of thing.

And does anyone know what lumanet/colornet/hydranet are? We keep seeing these things and we're trying to figure these out, but to no avail. Our board and our computer both say things about hydranet in connection windows.

Tomorrow I'll get pictures of the theatre and some of the equipment.

Also, any more light design knowledge on here would be awesome, or if someone could direct me to another part of the forum where that kind of stuff is it would be great.

Thanks for all the responses!

PS I read the gafftaper method. Sound functional.

Take a look at my previous post on use of a system, thats how you use a system to light a musical (well, my down and dirty method of doing it). Keep in mind with your MLs, even the largest shows on broadway use a TON (hundreds and hundreds) of conventional, non moving lights. They also usually have anywhere from dozens to hundreds of movers as well, but conventionals do some things a lot better than MLs. With a moving light, you are limited to whats in it, and they are expensive to keep up and running. As for changing looks for every scene, why do that? If your looking at Chicago (Im in tech for Chicago at a theatre in Michigan right now), you have a number of locations, and each time your in the cell block, for instance, you probably want it to look similar to let the audience know where you are. A common way to deal with musicals is to have "scene light" that is basically a stage wash, maybe some texture and color to give it some character. Then, when a song comes along, the followspots swing in, the front light becomes lower to highlight your lead, and you generally get more saturated color washes. This is where you start using your programing skills on the board, and you can do all sorts of things, from having lights chase, running effects, or even running large numbers of cues rapidly to timecode from the music. Having hundreds of MLs can be cool, but its not as easy as you think. You need to program, for each group of them (or each one individually, depending what they are doing) for Color, Intensity, Gobo, Pan, Tilt, Iris, zoom (if applicable), shutters, etc. Thats a lot of time. It actually saves a ton of time to go through the show, and at each point where you think you might want a cue, put a tick mark and some ideas about whats happening. Then, as soon as you can, go visit a rehersal, preferably when they are running the entire thing. It wont be done or final, but it will give you an idea of how the actors move, etc. After this, you can start making your cues more final, refine your ideas. Depending on how much time you have, you might want to create a light plot for your show before you go see a rehearsal, and on it include things you think you need. I usually start after reading the show a few times and researching looks, and make a Systems and Specials sheet. On it, I write down each system I know I need. For example, In Chicago, you will probably want some sort of sultry red, some purple, some amber, some blue (these are suggestions, you might have a totally different take on it). So in your hypothetical S&S sheet, you would write "Top light Red, Top light Purple, Top Light Blue...". From this, you might deduce that scrollers would be a worthwhile investment, or seahcangers, or whatever you have, or you might decide you need your Revolutions over the stage to accommodate this. Since there is a lot of dancing in musicals, you will want to consider sidelight. This really sculpts out the human form, and really make the dancing look amazing. Side light is usually done in several "layers", if you will. First, you have sidelight hung as systems across battens, with the entire system of multiple lights having the same angle and area size. The second is pipe ends, which are just lights hung on the ends of battens. These will have different angles if you have 3 areas across the stage, all lit with SL Pipe ends, as all the lights will be in the same 3' area and cover 3 areas maybe 10' apart at their center. However, this look can be what you want. I like doing some gobos from pipe ends. Next, you have your ladders, which can be anywhere from the trim on the battens down to head height, and could probably go lower yet... Not sure if it becomes a boom at some point or not... Anyhow, same idea as pipe ends, just different angles. Then you have your boom lights, which are often divided into 3 types: "Head Highs" which are about 6-7' off the deck, and cross into the opposite wing. Next you have "mids", same plan but between 3-5' off the deck. Finally, you have "Shin Busters", so called because they are as low to the deck as you can possibly get them, and you can bust your shins on them. We name things creatively in this industry. These are focused tilted up a bit usually, and shuttered off the deck, so you dont actually see any light from them unless you have haze, until a dancer gets in the way of one and gets lit up. Absolutely stunning effects in ballet, but works for all sorts of dance numbers as well. Obviously, all of this could be used in a play too, you just mentioned musicals, so Im figuring you have song and dance numbers.

You mentioned you have ParNels and Fresnels, both of which are useful for various things. You can use them as front light, it just spreads a lot and is less controllable than a Source 4, which is an ERS (Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlight), again creatively named, after the shape of its reflector. Your PARNels and Fresnels are good at washing the stage with smooth, even areas of light that blend together well. These will make your red wash very nicely. They work really well from the top and back, as you generally want your color to not cover the actor's face, but instead have another color that works well thats closer to white so that you can see them doing what actors do, you know, acting. Also consider using them to wash your set with color, if its going to be further away from the actors.

Consider this too, you can do even more than just have a Red wash. What might make your scene even better is something like a Red top wash, with deep lav or blue shins with gobos in them. Our Cellblock Tango was stunning and sexy, and we are using around 100 conventional instruments, 6 under-cabinet type deals (10 bucks each from the Home Depot), 4 Icues, 16 scrollers and 2 S4 follow spots. However, it looks like a million dollar rental package because the designer was careful and creative with using the available instruments to make art. It doesnt hurt that we have a lovely cast of great dancers and singers either (one thing to remember, your lights are not the show. The show is the show, and even spot on million dollar lighting cant fix crappy acting). Also, if you have a pile of instruments, one way you could make something look like you have movers zooming out would be focus specials on your cells in red, and fade them out while brining in your red tops, similar effect without using a single moving head.

And that brings me to the last point my exhausted mind will make, is that your entire goal of design is to tell a story using light. Ideally, your looks should ooze the attitude of the scene your trying to light, be it a box set with 2 guys on a bench in the summer, or Cell block tango, deep in CCJ, dripping with murder, sex and passion. Telling a story is your goal, not making cool effects. Leave that to the rock concerts, where thats a lot of the point. Your goal is to bring the magic of theatre to life. You create atmosphere, control emotion, and reveal the scene. What you show people must tell the story. Keep seeing visions, dreaming dreams, etc though. Your vision of red lights doing something can lead you down a path of some cool effects.

If you have any more questions, or didnt understand something in my 10/12+5 hour tech call+2 hour drive addled mind, let me know. Id be happy to explain/correct myself on anything thats not totally clear.

[shiben]

At least in Marshall-Terminology, frost is a specific type of diffusion, one that is less drastic than some.

Same with RoscoSpeak, ApolloSpeak, Etc. I say frost because I use frost diffusion as it has the effect of softening the edge. Using a Silk will do a different thing (spread the light directionally), using a rough spun will soften the inside of the beam but retain the edges, some diffusers make light look like its shining behind translucent plastic (mainly because it actually is), etc. When I talk about dropping frost in, Im referring to a somewhat common technique of focusing all of your Source 4s to a hard edge, taking your cuts, and then dropping R114 or R119 (or whatever similar you happen to have) into the fixture to soften the edges and blend the instrument better with adjacent areas. Its easier than running the lens tube for each instrument and matching them all just right, and most anyone can focus a light to sharp.

[MarshallPope]

and most anyone can focus a light to sharp.

Unfortunately, I beg to differ. But that's beside the point.

[shiben]

Unfortunately, I beg to differ. But that's beside the point.

Ok. Ill give you, some people cant. But most people the local will put on a load in can do that, and with some instruction, so can most students.

[Les]

A Source 4, which is an ERS (Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlight), again creatively named, after the shape of its reflector.

Nitpicking here, but actually it's due to the 4 filament structures in the proprietary lamp.

There's all this talk about movers, but unfortunately, your Revolutions are probably just about all your Leviton console will handle. For the system you're dreaming of, you would need a GrandMA or HOG type console (or at the very least, MagicQ). Either way, this could add up to $100,000 very quickly. Consider renting fixtures and a console for Chicago, if you so desire.

It sounds like you're all over the place with your system. In one post you're asking about your architectural system, another is about coms, and now it's a bunch of moving heads. I advise you to focus on one aspect of the system at a time, focusing your attention on the most critical parts first. Also, learn ALL ABOUT DMX before even thinking about moving lights.

Restating what's been said before, learn to be effective in identifying and using what you already have before you try to keep up with what professional theatres are doing. You have to learn to walk before you can run. As for "can a fresnel be used as a front light", sure it can, but be prepared for a lot of lens flare and spill.

Lumens ---> watts; well, it doesn't quite work that way. A 750 watt fresnel won't necessarily put out the same amount of lumens as a 750 watt Source Four ellipsoidal. The lumens is more dictated by the efficiency of the fixture's optical system, and how it works with the lamp. That being said, the photometrics (measurements of lumens, watts, beam angle, etc) can all be found on the manufacturer's websites. Visit Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC for more than you ever wanted to know about your Source Fours and Parnells.

[shiben]

Nitpicking here, but actually it's due to the 4 filament structures in the proprietary lamp.

Im going to go with an ERS was not named after a HPLs filament structure. Looking back it should have read: A Source 4 is an ERS (Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlight - creatively named after the shape of the reflector) and can be used... 19 hours in a day dont do much for my writing skills.

[shiben]

Lumens ---> watts; well, it doesn't quite work that way. A 750 watt fresnel won't necessarily put out the same amount of lumens as a 750 watt Source Four ellipsoidal. The lumens is more dictated by the efficiency of the fixture's optical system, and how it works with the lamp. That being said, the photometrics (measurements of lumens, watts, beam angle, etc) can all be found on the manufacturer's websites. Visit Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC for more than you ever wanted to know about your Source Fours and Parnells.

And there are other issues as well... A theoretical lamp that draws 10A at 120V being driven with 120V will have one output, and when you drive it with 130V, only increasing the wattage by 300, will probably increase the lumens a lot more because your overdriving the lamp. It will, however, ruin the lamp rapidly. IIRC, the PRG BadBoy uses an overdriven lamp... I just seem to remember something about that.

[derekleffew]

... Also, next year we're doing Chicago (One of my favorite musicals) and I want it to be absolutely perfect, so I'm trying to learn how to make our system do amazing things. ...

FWIW, the 1996 Broadway revival designed by Ken Billington used very few (under 20) moving lights, VL5's and VL6b's controlled by a HogII; and about 500 SourceFour s on an Obsession. I can't recall ever seeing the lights move.

The original 1975 Broadway production, overshadowed by A Chorus Line, designed by Jules Fisher, was run on piano board s and had maybe 200 instrument s.

"Absolutely perfect" is an admirable, though unattainable, goal.

[Les]

Im going to go with an ERS was not named after a HPLs filament structure. Looking back it should have read: A Source 4 is an ERS (Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlight - creatively named after the shape of the reflector) and can be used... 19 hours in a day dont do much for my writing skills.

Sorry Shiben, it appears that we're both right, just making different points. I read your post as "why the Source Four had its name" while you were actually explaining why the ERS is so-called. So yep, you're right about the reflector naming the instrument.

[shiben]

FWIW, the 1996 Broadway revival designed by Ken Billington used very few (under 20) moving lights, VL5's and VL6b's controlled by a HogII; and about 500 SourceFour s on an Obsession. I can't recall ever seeing the lights move.

The original 1975 Broadway production, overshadowed by A Chorus Line, designed by Jules Fisher, was run on piano board s and had maybe 200 instrument s.

"Absolutely perfect" is an admirable, though unattainable, goal.

Absolutely perfect is totally attainable if you have A very low standards or B Dont sweat the small stuff and let the design become what it does. B tends to become large and cumbersome and might be perfect to a critic but not to the guy whos in charge of replacing your lamps/procuring rental gear. Option A just tends to be silly or really bad. I think the best attainable goal would be good enough, which is good enough to make it work and satisfy people.

[chausman]

"Absolutely perfect" is an admirable, though unattainable, goal.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A design may be "absolutely perfect" to me, but to someone else, it isn't. I think perfect is what truly looks like what you and your director want it to look like. And, perfect is the best you can do with the equipment available.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[sconosciute]

First off, I couldn't get pictures today, I'll try again tomorrow.

Second, one of the many things I've been told was to focus one one thing at a time. Do first I want to focus on the inner workings of the system. How DMX works and how the network communicates, I get the basic idea on gafftapers explanation, Hexidecimal id's and different values to produce different levels. Recently our wireless system that we use to connect the board to the system stopped working with absolutely no warning. On the panel in the big control box it has an error light lit up next to something that says lumanet. Right now we've had to hardwire using our well named oh **** cable. On it I can only use universe one (The revolutions are on universe two) and over time the cable degrades, because it is really only for emergencies. At this point we've been told we're no longer under warranty and need to figure out the problem ourselves, I'll try to get some pictures up of what I'm talking about tomorrow. Ant help or ideas would be appreciated.

[chausman]

First off, I would suggest learning about more basic design concepts and less on the inner workings, but since you can't control the Revolutions, then getting everything working should be the first priority.

Until you can get the wireless system working again, (Is wireless really a good way to go?), I doubt that you have 450 dimmers, so I would set your revolutions to DMX address (can be anything below 481, and above the number of dimmers you have) Lets just use 400 for simplicities sake. Set one to 400, and the other to 432. Then, on the console, patch those revolutions in what ever channels you choose on the console. If you don't know how to set the Revolutions to an address within the first universe, the manual is here.

And, after you set them to an address within universe 1 (thanks DuckJordan) you would need to connect the Revolutions to the DMX line somehow. Hopefully your dimmers have a DMX Thru or Out on them. Or, run a line to the Revolutions, and then to the Dimmers.

I don't know how much you read, but I liked this analogy when I read it from SteveB about DMX

One simple analogy I heard is to think of a coal train with an engine and 512 coal cars. Multiple trains are sent down a track 44 times per second. A "device" watches to see how much coal is in car 1, or 2 or 57, etc... and translates that (digital) information to a particular command. If it's dimmer 57 and the car is at 28% full, then the dimmer varies the voltage to 28%. If it's a color scroller the motor(s) move (the scroll of color) to a position at about 28% of travel. If a moving light, it listens to 24 coal cars per ML and uses car 1 to control position on a tilt motor, car 3 is for pan motor, car 5 might be how far to open the mechanical shutter (dimmer). Car 6 says move to gobo 1.

Thus a dimmer rack is listening to the entire DMX data stream of 512 addresses and is typically set for dimmer 1 to respond to address 1, with the color scrollers and moving lights listening to that same data stream. If you have 300 dimmers, dimmer 1 will respond to whatever the console is telling dimmer 1 to do, right thru 300. If you want 10 color scrollers to function, you choose a starting "DMX address" to be at 301 thru 310 as example (assuming the scroller uses one DMX addresses - some use 2) You then set console channels to patch those DMX addresses to appropriate channels to get the scollers to move from Home (zero value on DMX address 301) to the end of the scoll (100% for that same address). The scroller moves thru all the assorted colors on the way. If you add 2 moving lights, say High End Studio Spot CMY Zooms, which uses 24 DMX addresses to get control of all of these features, you tell the fixture to start listening at 311 thru 334, with the 2nd fixture at 335 and up. Those 24 DMX addresses control the assorted functions of the fixture, Intensity, Pan, Tilt, Zoom, Iris, Gobo 1 position, Gobo 2 position, dichroic color flag 1 position, flag 2 position, etc... which is why it uses 24 addresses per fixture.

If you screw up and put scroller 1 at DMX address 1, then everytime you try to bring up dimmer 1, you will move scroller 1 as well, because they are both configured to listen to that address.

The use of DMX to control things other then dimmers is one of the reasons the term Address is in use to define a particular DMX "coal car".

Because a single DMX "Universe (512 addresses) can only fit on one cable (or track), multiple cables are run for a 2nd, or 3rd, or multiple "universes" of DMX, each sending 512 addresses of data. Or the DMX data streams can be combined using Ethernet systems to allow up to 32 universes of DMX to be run on a single Cat5 Ethernet cables. Assorted companies use proprietary Ethernet protocols or they can us a new standard called ACN, for Advanced Control Network to send the data.

I don't know much about the network side other then, "It works now, but when I do XYZ, it doesn't work anymore" And not to mess with it.

[DuckJordan]

First off, I would suggest learning about more basic design concepts and less on the inner workings, but since you can't control the Revolutions, then getting everything working should be the first priority.

Until you can get the wireless system working again, (Is wireless really a good way to go?), I doubt that you have 450 dimmers, so I would set your revolutions to DMX address (can be anything below 481, and above the number of dimmers you have) Lets just use 400 for simplicities sake. Set one to 400, and the other to 432. Then, on the console, patch those revolutions in what ever channels you choose on the console. If you don't know how to set the Revolutions to an address within the first universe, the manual is here.

I don't know how much you read, but I liked this analogy when I read it from SteveB

Chaus I'd suggest going and reading DMX too, First off any device that uses DMX to control on each universe only goes from 0-512, To change universes you have to connect the cable that is connected to the second universe of the console to the device you want on the next universe. There is no setting on any fixtures that i know of to differentiate different universes on the same cable. (nor could I fore-see using two universes on one cable).

Who told you that the cable wasn't designed for extended use. I know of know copper cable that using less than 12 volts would degrade to a point of uselessness in normal operating conditions for more than 10 years. My first thing since I hate wireless with anything involving lighting other than RFU's is to get the second universe on a cable line as well as the first. Wireless DMX is just not reliable enough to me to use for any show critical applications.

If you want to focus on something first, Try learning about the lighting system. Meaning the console. Figure out how it controls the dimmers, learn how you can use the console to make your life easier as a designer/programmer/Board op, This includes learning DMX, basic principles of lighting, and learning how to setup your groups and sub masters to be able to more efficiently program.

Since you are in high school I wouldn't get too in depth with any of it at this point and just focus on learning the basics of each.

I'm not sure what those black boxes you are talking about. They could be anything from DMX splitters to Architectural control systems to something that shouldn't be messed with at all.

[chausman]

Chase I'd suggest going and reading DMX too, First off any device that uses DMX to control on each universe only goes from 0-512, To change universes you have to connect the cable that is connected to the second universe of the console to the device you want on the next universe. There is no setting on any fixtures that i know of to differentiate different universes on the same cable.

Opps I was thinking that, forgot to add it. I'll add it.

[Les]

I think that was me who suggested focusing on one thing at a time. I was more referring to projects. I think you can take on learning about lighting design, DMX, different types of fixtures and your console all at once. Just don't get bogged down in too many projects that won't make much of a difference to your shows.

Also, one trap many people fall in to is never being satisfied with what they have in front of them (I'm one of them). Always dreaming of bigger, badder moving lights, consoles and fancy whathaveyou's; it's easy to miss out on the opportunities that are readily available. So, learn to design a good, solid show with the equipment you have, without dreaming too much of what it *could* be if you had 'X' amount of Vari*Lites. Otherwise, it's hard to be happy with what you're working with. I mean this in a friendly way; I'm not accusing you of being someone like me .

If you're really itching to use more moving fixtures, you could always rent a set for a show. This is much more cost-effective, especially since the district's budgeting for your theatre is probably blacked out for the next ten years anyway .