Is Local 829 worth it?

[jstroming]

Esoteric-

I agree with 90% of what you say. What you have to realize is that every single union stagehand sees your existence as a threat to their livelihood. Because of that, they have developed a predatory approach to dealing with "scabs" like you.

They're going to always dislike you (like they do everyone who goes into non-union houses) and try to blacklist you like this fine gentlemen recommends:

As stated by VAN:
"I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas."

Van, your threats are completely uncalled for, and unfortunately prove many of the points people who disagree with you make.

Why are none of the "Senior Members" on this site condemning this language???

[Gern]

The laws on this are VERY complicated, and full of exceptions and such. But yes, you can work 13 hours a day (the maximum work day length unless you are exempted) every day (Monday - Friday) and there is no regulation on when your lunch break falls.

Perhaps the locals there in CA and in the film industry out there are different. But in MY EXPERIENCE with locals in Texas and Tennessee there is certainly a "stick it to the man" attitude. And as "the man" it bothers me when labor doesn't want to work with me. So I quit hiring union guys.

Sadly, I think you could find this behavior all most any where, and I didn't mean to say it doesn't happen in LA, yes, I have seen it here in LA. My thoughts are 1)There are 2 types of people regarding this. Some people don't try to 'stick it to the man', for lack of better terms, they don't suffer from a feeling of entitlement, etc., and others do. Granted there is an argument that these people are few & far between...
2) Some people can 'keep it together', 'keep it together', 'keep it together', until they feel taken advantage of, then they will 'stick it to the man'.
I am sorry to hear of your problem workers. I'm not doubting your experiences at all.
I sir, have had absolutely the opposite experience with my workers when I was in Tennessee as the best boy using all local electrics & grips. I am very proud of them, they truly made my life as easy as possible, did the job flawlessly, and had the kind of personalities that made me want to hang out with them. The only rough parts were the high humidity, and me breaking my ribs on a mt bike fall on my day off.

I've had a good times while visiting Texas, but never worked there.

[shiben]

You can't control everything about a call no matter how hard you try. Perhaps you start a 3 point bridle with 45 minutes to spare, but you encounter problems and need another 10 minutes to finish. But the steward says "nope, sorry" and so you waste all the time of guys getting down, taking their break, going back up, etc. That is ridiculous. But I have had it happen.

I believe in the person with the overall view and plan of what is going on calling breaks and lunches.

If you don't get your mandated break, report the employer to OSHA just like every other worker in the nation has to.

I also had a steward tell me if I called the break at 1:00 (which I wanted to do) then instead of doing 3 hours of work when we got back, the clock would restart and there would be another break 2 hours from that point. Completely insane.

Actually that last tidbit makes sense, if they are trying to call a break ever 2 hours. I understand you are frustrated with the union, but at some point, there needs to be some sort of thing there to protect workers. Trusting the Feds to regulate things is a joke. Mine workers are presumably unionized, yet there is still horrific accidental death in mines every year. Federal regulation has not done jack for them. The history of labor has shown that employers will, in the absence of multiple levels of regulation, not care what happens to the workers. The Union is one layer, OSHA is another. True, they could be more flexible, but you can see why they wouldnt. Give in one, it becomes a fight to even keep the regulation in place. I have been fortunate enough that most of the people I work for are pretty cool about breaks happening at the right time, or often enough to be ok, but I know people who have been worked for 10 hours straight without a break. Thats outrageous, and when thats the abuse, you must forgive someone for going a bit too far in the other direction to attempt to protect their workers from that. Also, I think from an employer perspective, dealing with the union over a safety issue is probably preferable to having OSHA come in, shut the place down, and then fine everyone within sight...

[Grog12]

Esoteric-

I agree with 90% of what you say. What you have to realize is that every single union stagehand sees your existence as a threat to their livelihood. Because of that, they have developed a predatory approach to dealing with "scabs" like you.

They're going to always dislike you (like they do everyone who goes into non-union houses) and try to blacklist you like this fine gentlemen recommends:

As stated by VAN:
"I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas."

Van, your threats are completely uncalled for, and unfortunately prove many of the points people who disagree with you make.

Why are none of the "Senior Members" on this site condemning this language???

The problem with your post, much as is the problem with posts on both sides of this arguement is that it generalizes the entirety of the IATSE.

I've worked with several members who in no way shape or form felt that us non union hands were a "threat to their livelihood." 9 times out of 10 they've tried to recruit me.

There are scumbag employers. Not all of them are.

There are scumbag union hands. Not all of them are.

There are scumbag non union hands. Not all of them are.

Lets go ahead and agree to realize this fact now.

[Footer]

2 things here...

I'm not in a union venue. I'm technically management, so even if we went union I would not. However, we still follow some of the rules. If we push a meal and don't get a full hour for dinner, venue pays for our meal AND we stay on the clock during the meal. Long story short, my executive director is not happy with me if we have to push a meal. Time and a half after 8 hours. Everyone crosses lines to get the show done. Now, that being said, none of my guys have health insurance that we help pay for. They can pay into the NYS retirement system if they want. We do occasionally hire union hands for overhire but we use them more as a labor hall.

Now, as far as the breaks go, there are ways around that. I have worked in a local one venue that we were 10 minutes away from finishing focus and coming up on break. I looked at the steward and asked if we could push 10 and take the break when the focus was over. We were having a good day, everyone was happy, and all the hands agreed and we pushed 10. One more reason every time I show up to a call at a new venue/crew I walk in with a dozen donuts for the first break. 6 bucks keeps everyone happy and I can bend rules here or there. Attitude is everything.

[MrsFooter]

Now is that to state that every IATSE local is chock full of experienced stagehands, some with ETCP certification ?. Hardly. How many of these locals have enough work to allow it's members to gain the skill set found at the busiest locals ?. ****ed few typically. How many of these locals are made up of members that are moonlighting as stagehands, as they cannot support their families on the limited amount of work in the local. That's a typical scenario, sad to say.

I think this is where much of the prejudice against union hands has come from. I have worked with many union hands belonging to many different locals. Some of them were fantastic at what they did and worked incredibly hard for us, and I'd gladly work by their side any day. Some of them were literally picked up at the homeless shelter or halfway house 30 minutes before the call. (I wish I were making that up, but both of those situations actually happened at different houses I've worked at.) It all depends on the particular local. What gets frustrating is when instead of getting talented hands with great work ethics, (like many of you gentlemen on this forum,) we get a junkie who's never pushed a box or held a wrench before today and shot crack into his eyeballs 20 minutes ago.

Unfortunately, simply being a union member no longer speaks of the member's skill sets. Especially when you move away from the larger markets into areas that don't get a ton of work, the talent pool from which to pull from becomes smaller and more diluted. The guys that are good get snapped up by houses, often leaving a crew of guys that don't get enough work to really develop their skills. Which, in turn, makes people who are in the position to give those guys work hesitate to do so because their skills aren't developed. It's a vicious cycle.

[Esoteric]

A couple of things:

1. I agree there are good guys and scumbags on both sides.
2. You get a half hour unpaid lunch at 6 hours in Texas. You also get 1 15 minute break at 4 hours and 1 at 8 hours. Those are paid. But there are no regulations on when they must be taken (except they can not end a shift).
3. If unions weren't so... Unbending they would probably get more work. That is another problem with unions, they make for an adversarial relationship rather than a cooperative one. It is built into their core.
4. I have only done one gig in Tennessee, so perhaps my evaluation of them was unfair. But I needed two electricians for 6 hours. First off I had to hire 3 guys. Secondly they were only going to work 4:45 minutes out of the 6 hours. Then they sent me 2 carps and a box pusher. I sent them back and they tried to tell me I owed the 4 hour minimum anyway. The whole thing was a farce (I never signed the labor contract, so I owed them nothing). I ended up hiring 2 local theater electricians who were union hands but never got a call from the labor manager and a local industrial electrician. And I am glad I did, I would hate to have heard what the Union hands would have said when we had to do a 500' wire pull. I am sure they would have walked off the job.
5. Shiben I hear what you are saying, but I have two responses.
a. Like workers in every other job they have multiple layers of protection. First of all they can look out for themselves. Don't like working conditions? Go somewhere else. Secondly, they can call OSHA. Down here at least OSHA LOVES to investigate.
b. They work in a dangerous industry. Sure. but they chose to work in that industry. Don't like the risk? Get into another line of work.
6. Also Shiben, again, unions create an adversarial atmosphere. That just isn't acceptable. You have to work with management (and labor) not against each other.
7. By the way my crews take frequent breaks, we sometimes take two meals (if we work through lunch and dinner), which I usually provide, I pay very well, everyone does what needs to be done to get the job done, we work in a spirit of cooperation to get the job done. I wish I had worked with some of the Stewards you guys have. Mine have all been completely unforgiving on the rules.

IMHO unions provide no value to anyone, promote an adversarial atmosphere, and I would not be upset if every union in the nation was broken.

[shiben]

Unfortunately, simply being a union member no longer speaks of the member's skill sets. Especially when you move away from the larger markets into areas that don't get a ton of work, the talent pool from which to pull from becomes smaller and more diluted. The guys that are good get snapped up by houses, often leaving a crew of guys that don't get enough work to really develop their skills. Which, in turn, makes people who are in the position to give those guys work hesitate to do so because their skills aren't developed. It's a vicious cycle.

I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.

[Esoteric]

I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.

Yup, because no one has to be in the union no one wants to.

[Footer]

A labor union is there to protect their members. They are there to keep their members in work. They are there to train there members and keep their numbers strong. They are not there to be a labor company. Unfortunately, in our world many of the IA locals are more of a labor company then a union. When I was in Georgia, the IA local competed against two other labor companies (both of these other companies 1099'ed all of their employees). If you expect a great workforce, hire them for 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year. If you just need a few guys now and then, you can't expect them to know everything. This is true with IA and outside of IA. Just looking down my call list, I have 60 guys on it. 10 are stellar. 20 are great. 20 can do the work. The last 10 I would rather have my cat come in and work then call them. Same thing goes for IA. However, they keep the 50 guys working and give the guy who calls once in a blue moon the 10. If you start hiring guys constantly, then your going to get better guys. Also remember your dealing with a labor union, not a labor company. If you want to deal with a labor company, call your local temp labor supplier.

[Esoteric]

Good post Footer. Which is why I prefer to deal with companies that only have 20 exceptional hands. If they don't have anyone then they don't have anyone and I call the next company. If all the good guys are out of hands then I call a day labor company, but they don't charge me $25/hr. They don't send me trash and try to pawn it off (and charge me as much) as the crown jewels.

[SteveB]

Good post Footer. Which is why I prefer to deal with companies that only have 20 exceptional hands. If they don't have anyone then they don't have anyone and I call the next company. If all the good guys are out of hands then I call a day labor company, but they don't charge me $25/hr. They don't send me trash and try to pawn it off (and charge me as much) as the crown jewels.

Esoteric

I could not help but wonder, having read all of your posts here on this subject, that possibly your anti-union attitude comes off during your dealings with the IATSE local ?, and that might be part of the problem with the attitudes of both the BA at the local in terms of who they send you, as well as any attitude and/or work ethics the crew gives you.

I'm, speculating off course, but humans are pretty good at picking up vibes and possibly they get a big negative off you.

Mind that I don't know you except here on CB so could be totally off-base, but throughout all this sometimes heated discussion, I could not help wondering just how much real effort you put in, actually trying to make the union situation work. Have you ever sat down with the BA and discussed your issues with the crew and work rules ?. The BA's are there to get their members work, and the attitude of the IA International office on down is generally to bend over backwards to get their members work. Many. many locals, including IA 1 here in NYC have contracts with venues that some of the older members would shake their heads at, what with pay scale, relaxed hours, coffee breaks, overtime, no minimums, etc... our facility including. I know for a fact that Jim Claffey, currently the head at Local One, worked our contract negotiations to the extent that our Prod. Manager, who had a lot of prior experience negotiating IA contracts, was actually surprised at how favorable the contract was for management. The Local wanted it's foot in the door and understood they were dealing with a state agency that was used to playing hardball with it's unions, thus there is and was a big reality check that Local One was not going to get the same contract they had at the Met. Opera. That is not unusual in today's economic environment and was the reason I stated that IATSE was one of the better unions in terms if understanding the economic realities.

Just food for thought about what comes across as a blatant anti-union attitude in a business where union representation has generally been a good thing.

Especially for designers, as the OP was seemingly happy to have joined.

[mstaylor]

I run a non union crew, one for my home arena, the other for a local company. Many of the guys overlap because we are in a small area. A few of my guys make a living at it, most others have regular jobs and work for me as needed. I have some that have been with me for 10 to 25 years, others work a few shows and are never seen again.
Our standard work rules are 4 hour minimums, a midmorning break and a midafternoon break, both 15 minutes. Lunch is between four to five hours, one hour nonpaid if they go offsite, 1/2 hour paid if catered. All that is flexable, we let the show take the lead unless they get stupid about it, then I insist on the break. Many times the breaks are staggered if that is what the show wants. Some union houses insist the the room goes dark during lunch, we have no such rule. My general rule is once the riggers go in the air, they stay in the air. If they take a break, they do so on the steel. For a normal show, they do not break for meals until they are done.
I have a mix of very good, experienced guys to good hands to box pushers. I make no secret of that when I advance a show. When I go to another building, I assume the same thing is true there.

[Esoteric]

I haven't had this attitude always. It has taken years to get to this point. I was on the IA call list for over 8 years. I was an apprentice rigger. I am always cordial with those supplying labor to me. My vendors all love me. I am always looking for solutions.

On the other hand I used to love some of the stupid rules when I was on a union call. I once made $100 an hour because of all the penalties I racked up. But now that I am management, I see the damage they do. I think I have a unique view having seen both sides of the situation. If I went back to being labor, I would not join the IA.

The answer I always got from BAs? Those are the rules. Take them or leave them. You don't want (or do want) _______________? Call a day labor company. Sure we will send you 3 electricians (and 2 carps and a box pusher show up). The stewards I have dealt with are just as bad. You want a carp to plug in that light sitting under a piece of scenery 6 inches from his hand? Nope, the electrician has to come down off of his 30' ladder and do it.

I was not always like this. The IA has made me this way.

Of course we have really gotten OT as none of this really applies to USA.

[shiben]

I haven't had this attitude always. It has taken years to get to this point. I was on the IA call list for over 8 years. I was an apprentice rigger. I am always cordial with those supplying labor to me. My vendors all love me. I am always looking for solutions.

On the other hand I used to love some of the stupid rules when I was on a union call. I once made $100 an hour because of all the penalties I racked up. But now that I am management, I see the damage they do. I think I have a unique view having seen both sides of the situation. If I went back to being labor, I would not join the IA.

The answer I always got from BAs? Those are the rules. Take them or leave them. You don't want (or do want) _______________? Call a day labor company. Sure we will send you 3 electricians (and 2 carps and a box pusher show up). The stewards I have dealt with are just as bad. You want a carp to plug in that light sitting under a piece of scenery 6 inches from his hand? Nope, the electrician has to come down off of his 30' ladder and do it.

I was not always like this. The IA has made me this way.

Of course we have really gotten OT as none of this really applies to USA.

I can see that. My personal feeling is that it all comes back to Right To Work rules. If the union is busted, why bust their ass to make contracts that make sense for both parties? They have to offer some advantage to their workers, and so they do that by being hard liners on the rules. What incentive is there to not do it? Now, if the RTW rules were not there, you might be looking at a situation where the union would want to organize your house, and do so in a way that worked with you on it. If they are forced to just be another labor contractor but one that relies on having members, not always working, just dues paying, they need to offer their members something to keep them around, and that is strict adherence to the rules.

[Esoteric]

I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.

As far as what the union has to offer to stay in business, who cares? If they can't provide enough benefits for their members to stay in business they should go out of business. Really, the only reason unions are still around is governmental protection (in the form of closed shops). And if slavish adherence to the rules is all the have to offer, I don't think they would last very long.

Unfortunately there are enough "union guys" and governmental protections that unions stick around even though they have long outlived their usefulness. I would like to see how unions would do if closed shops were abolished across the nation. Without that protection I wonder if unions could function?

I know there are a lot of cities in Texas where the unions are constantly operating in the red or just in the black.

Without a closed shop you can work more, get paid better, and still have all the benefits without being in a union. They just can't compete. Which is why all the best technicians down here are nonunion freelancers and work for the production houses, while the union gets the leftovers (which explains why calls are so bad out here, heck as recently as 2004 in order to meet a call for WWE RAW it took the combined San Antonio and Austin Locals PLUS temps).

Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.

[DuckJordan]

I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.

As far as what the union has to offer to stay in business, who cares? If they can't provide enough benefits for their members to stay in business they should go out of business. Really, the only reason unions are still around is governmental protection (in the form of closed shops). And if slavish adherence to the rules is all the have to offer, I don't think they would last very long.

Unfortunately there are enough "union guys" and governmental protections that unions stick around even though they have long outlived their usefulness. I would like to see how unions would do if closed shops were abolished across the nation. Without that protection I wonder if unions could function?

I know there are a lot of cities in Texas where the unions are constantly operating in the red or just in the black.

Without a closed shop you can work more, get paid better, and still have all the benefits without being in a union. They just can't compete. Which is why all the best technicians down here are nonunion freelancers and work for the production houses, while the union gets the leftovers (which explains why calls are so bad out here, heck as recently as 2004 in order to meet a call for WWE RAW it took the combined San Antonio and Austin Locals PLUS temps).

Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.

I agree with most things but when you say all the best techs are non union i have to call the BS flag on, I know of at least 2 Union members from that area who are working broadway shows. Oh and btw could easily beat you in knowledge and skill in almost any part of the industry. Unions did have their time, But when states started enforcing labor laws. (SD is also a right to work state) there really isn't a place for it.

I know the local 220 union here in sioux falls is on the verge of bankruptcy and utter collapse due mostly by companies having issues spending $17 a head when an average worker here makes 13-16$ for skilled trades. OH by the way that 17$ that the union charges per head I get about $11 from on top of having to pay dues on what I actually make. I'm not a card holder and considering they work in about 3 venues around town. That are very likely to be shut out of soon no reason for it. I also know for a fact 80% of the union guys know little to nothing about shows. They are mostly neck down guys. Who can't even figure out how to push a **** road case. I've worked 3 events with them. There are about 3 guys who know what they are doing. And thats out of a pool of 20 active members.

This same union is responsible several times for filing for bankruptcy because of the "head" decided it was okay to line his pockets with the union dues. I'm sorry but this is getting more and more common. Yeah there are a few bad apples the problem is, unlike apples when one goes bad it attracts others.

I don't feel unions fill a role anymore. You can get life insurance for the same amount as the union charges on your own personal time, you can get more contracts and work days by not being union, and workers comp here at least in SD is required by the owners of the company you are working under. If you are freelancing at a certain venue I work in and you get hurt on the job, we are required to pay you workman's comp.

Sorry if I piss some of you off but when I looked at joining the union here and read how much I'd be paying in and what I'd be getting out. Its better that I find my own work.

[mstaylor]

I agree with most things but when you say all the best techs are non union i have to call the BS flag on, I know of at least 2 Union members from that area who are working broadway shows. Oh and btw could easily beat you in knowledge and skill in almost any part of the industry.

I know many guys touring that are union, many were not when they got the job. Many guys get cards once they get on the road, then move company to company from there.
Companies like Feld and Troika not only help you get a card, they cross train and send techs to schools to improve. I have several guys that went that route, including my son.

[Esoteric]

Yeah Jordan I wasn't clear. I know a few local guys who are great and have their cards, but they hardly ever work under their cards. I always get them through a local labor house.

There might even be a couple of great card carrying, IA tattoo sporting, true believer union hands here, but I have never had the pleasure to meet him. I was using absolutes for emphasis. Of course there are good union hands and bad nonunion hands, but here, good union hands are a small, small minority.

As I am sure you know though, working on Broadway is not a measure of skill or knowledge. I know some dumb as rocks guys that work on Broadway because they knew someone.

[meatpopsicle]

I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.

Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.

I take issue with this statement. I don't know about SD or Texas but letting the freemarket provide all the protection that a worker needs here in NY is a recipe for being taken advantage of. I don't see the freemarket making sure that my pension and healthplan are paid into nor that they are protected at all. In how many industries have corporations re-organized specifically in order to get out from under contracts that they have obligations too both for current workers and retirees? Kodak is an example here (one appropriate for Gern and I)

When I was working Non-Union for a major cable network I worked on several TV shows, the last of which was very successful (until the star took a powder). All during production the producer lamented that she was afraid that the Union might come and organize the show. The rates were the same 5 years after the 1st show I worked on because "that's all this network will pay" Having the union come down would "end the show for the network". After the second season the network ponied up a 4 million dollar signing bonus for the star and calculated that there was a 10 million payoff for him in merchandising. We got, as department heads, a 25.00 per week raise. There were no benefits. That show is still being sold in re-runs and is still making the network money.

My first TV show in the union I made twice as much money as a 3rd than I did as a non-union Department head, plus there were contributions to my healthcare plan that I got through the union and towards a pension for my retirement. I looked at that check and realized that I had been hosed by the prior show. In my end of the business its the IA that is looking out for workers and their futures. No one else.

Still, I see a major difference in the experiences that different people have with different locals around the country. Certainly the work rules and compensation for Gern and I are different than a union stagehand in the middle of the country. Markets are different and locals are different. That is certain. It makes it harder to talk about work rules. Sort of Apples and oranges (or bad apples and oranges if you like).

And finally a word about OSHA. In my experience they have offered no protection before the fact to my industry. They might be called if there were an accident and then fines might be levied. But prior to the fact? Not once here. Its laughable to bring up OSHA as a protection to workers here in my end of the business. Truthfully the only input to safety is the Network safety guy that comes around from NBC/Uni. And that's to protect them from litigation. Still there is more effort put into education on Sexual Harassment in the workplace than into safety.

[Esoteric]

This is nothing personal, but what I hear from a lot of union people is a lack of personal responsibility. Does the free market protect your pension and health plan? It sure does, by giving you the ability to protect yourself. Don't like your pension plan? Get a new one. Don't like your health plan? Switch.

No offense to anyone, but there is no such thing as objective worth. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. In the case of a tv show, without the star the show doesn't exist. So they get a big paycheck. Grips and hands are a dime a dozen. Even good ones, and so are paid accordingly.

As far as the union shutting down a show, I could see that. Plus you have to look at the big picture. They are like a virus. Once they get in and get a foothold it is that much harder to get them out, and they begin to spread and consume.

Down here OSHA loves to investigate. Call them with a complaint and they will be there in a flash. But again it is up to the worker to be responsible for their own safety.

Once again no offense, the IA film guys on this board seem like great guys and I would totally buy you guys a round of beers to hear your stories. But I stand by my assertions of unions as a whole. And this is from a guy who was a union hand for 8 years and who's brother is a Teamster for life (we don't talk about unions at family gatherings).

[shiben]

This is nothing personal, but what I hear from a lot of union people is a lack of personal responsibility. Does the free market protect your pension and health plan? It sure does, by giving you the ability to protect yourself. Don't like your pension plan? Get a new one. Don't like your health plan? Switch.

No offense to anyone, but there is no such thing as objective worth. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. In the case of a tv show, without the star the show doesn't exist. So they get a big paycheck. Grips and hands are a dime a dozen. Even good ones, and so are paid accordingly.

As far as the union shutting down a show, I could see that. Plus you have to look at the big picture. They are like a virus. Once they get in and get a foothold it is that much harder to get them out, and they begin to spread and consume.

Down here OSHA loves to investigate. Call them with a complaint and they will be there in a flash. But again it is up to the worker to be responsible for their own safety.

Once again no offense, the IA film guys on this board seem like great guys and I would totally buy you guys a round of beers to hear your stories. But I stand by my assertions of unions as a whole. And this is from a guy who was a union hand for 8 years and who's brother is a Teamster for life (we don't talk about unions at family gatherings).

Dude, the free market does not protect you for anything. Free markets got pension plans sold by companies as assets. Free markets are cutting healthcare and wages, making you have to go buy it yourself on a shrunken paycheck. Free markets are great for lots of things, but not a single one of those is protecting the worker. And you always mention that workers need to protect themselves, thats kind of why you join a union: to protect yourself. That way you dont have a dozen people trying to decide whats a safety violation, there are just straight rules for that. Everyone negotiates as one for contracts, so you dont get hosed by the contract. Everyone gets pensions taken care of and that helps protect your pension and others, same for welfare and if you get hurt. The free market and federal government do absolutely nothing to protect you. The feds do what they have to do to keep their jobs, then go right back to looking the other way. The free market is biased towards viewing labor as expendable and super cheap. Unfortunately, that means the vast majority are screwed in a free market system. Unions help to balance it out a little bit.

[Esoteric]

I can't agree Shiben. The free market is the ultimate protection. You don't like your working conditions? Work somewhere else. You don't like the product you are getting? Go buy somewhere else. In a strict labor union situation you have no choice. Don't like the product you get from the union? Too bad, it is the only product available, you will take what you get and like it. Don't like your working situation, or think you could earn more on your own? Too bad, you have to work under the current union contract (one reason I left the local, I could make more as a freelance electrician/rigger than I could being sent out as a box pusher by the local). Want to keep working and feeding your family because you don't agree with the ridiculous strike? Too bad, you have to walk and watch your family starve because the Union management wants an extra 2% on the contract to line their pockets with.

What a lot of people don't see if that at some point in the hierarchy, the Union becomes management. They have their own interests in mind as well, not just that of the labor.

Give me a free market where I am in charge of my own destiny any day of the week.

Unions aren't necessarily the problem though. Like every other Production and Labor house they are only looking out for their employees. Closed shops are the problem (although keep in mind power is always with labor).

Production and labor houses serve the same function as unions for their employees, and without the ridiculous rules and slavish adherence to them. All the production companies I hire from serve the same purpose and their workers have the same benefits as unions. What is the difference?

Closed shops and slavish adherence to tradition.

I am not anti-union. I am anti closed shop.

Unions can continue to exist and that is fine, but make every state a right to work state and let unions compete in an open and free market. If anything it would make the unions better. The free market makes everyone who participates in it better.

We actually have Teamsters and UAW here in Texas (an odd sight to be sure), but all their power derives from their ability to call strikes in other states where closed shops are legal.

[mstaylor]

I'm kind of the middle ground guy in this. I overlist with 22, I generally work nonunion. I see advantages and disadvantages in both systems. I do want to bring up one instance that I disagreed with when it was said and runs counter to everything union guys believe in.
After the Indiana disaster last year one of the hands said they didn't feel good about going up but if they didn't they wouldn't get anymore work. My stance is if you feel something is dangerous, even life threatening, don't do it. I don't care if it hampers the show refuse to do it. Then the union backed away from their training records. That disappointed me, they pride themselves on the quality of their training then ran away from it when it hits the fan.

[Footer]

I can't agree Shiben. The free market is the ultimate protection. You don't like your working conditions? Work somewhere else. You don't like the product you are getting? Go buy somewhere else. In a strict labor union situation you have no choice. Don't like the product you get from the union? Too bad, it is the only product available, you will take what you get and like it. Don't like your working situation, or think you could earn more on your own? Too bad, you have to work under the current union contract (one reason I left the local, I could make more as a freelance electrician/rigger than I could being sent out as a box pusher by the local). Want to keep working and feeding your family because you don't agree with the ridiculous strike? Too bad, you have to walk and watch your family starve because the Union management wants an extra 2% on the contract to line their pockets with.

What a lot of people don't see if that at some point in the hierarchy, the Union becomes management. They have their own interests in mind as well, not just that of the labor.

Give me a free market where I am in charge of my own destiny any day of the week.

Unions aren't necessarily the problem though. Like every other Production and Labor house they are only looking out for their employees. Closed shops are the problem (although keep in mind power is always with labor).

Production and labor houses serve the same function as unions for their employees, and without the ridiculous rules and slavish adherence to them. All the production companies I hire from serve the same purpose and their workers have the same benefits as unions. What is the difference?

Closed shops and slavish adherence to tradition.

I am not anti-union. I am anti closed shop.

Unions can continue to exist and that is fine, but make every state a right to work state and let unions compete in an open and free market. If anything it would make the unions better. The free market makes everyone who participates in it better.

We actually have Teamsters and UAW here in Texas (an odd sight to be sure), but all their power derives from their ability to call strikes in other states where closed shops are legal.

This is what the free market has done:

Crew One Productions is the largest technical staffing agency for concerts and corporate events in the southeast. Crew One contracts with workers for all areas of live entertainment including audio, staging, lighting, carpentry, wardrobe, forklift operators, and rigging. Crew One has locations in Nashville, Atlanta, Memphis and Chattanooga. Workers are retained on a free-lance basis, are required to have reliable transportation, an independent business, and may be asked to perform heavy lifting.

In other words, you show up, you get at 1099, you leave. You get hurt, not our problem. We caused you to get hurt? Not our problem.

Because the market sucks in general, people will do this work. Odds are they don't know what they are getting themselves into... they just want to feed their family. So, you take a chance... a scafolding falls on you... your out, your familys out, its all over.

[Scarrgo]

My old Mentor and a couple of other LDs I work with from time to time were asking me if I would like to go through the peer review process for USA (they are all members of USA). But I would do at the most 3 gigs a year that I need USA membership for. Would it be worth it to those of you in USA?

If the 3 or so gigs are worth the money and the feather in your cap, than by all means do it, if not, say no thanks. You can think about it again the next year the ask.

I can be a bit long winded, so you have been warned, this is my personal feelings ONLY, and I can change as I see fit. If you dont like them, thats fine by me. You have your right.

On a side note, I have done several tours in my short time on this earth, I have worked with High School kids, homeless people brought in off the street, men in orange jump suits(who gave that guy a power saw?), boot camp kids, college kids, cadets, Local 1 to Local # whatever.

They all have really good folks, and really bad folks. The one thing I have learned along the way is, we all have to get along, we dont have to like each other, we will be leaving in a couple of hours anyway. There are places I would really like to stay at and others I just cant get away from fast enough.

This forum has the ability to help our young up and comers and our slightly older friends learn how to make their show the best it can possible be.

We need to be careful on how we as a group come across when we have a disagreement on things like is the union a good idea to join.

We can not and should not tell anyone that they have to join or not. We dont walk in their shoes or maybe even live in that city, a civil conversation is a good thing, listing pros a cons, as that is what how every decision should be done. I have made my share of very bad decisions.

I have my position on unions, but thats my position, if you really want to know, PM me or start a new thread. I will be glad to talk about it. Untill than, I have left my advise to the OP above and good luck.

Have a great day.
Sean...

[Esoteric]

This is what the free market has done:



In other words, you show up, you get at 1099, you leave. You get hurt, not our problem. We caused you to get hurt? Not our problem.

Because the market sucks in general, people will do this work. Odds are they don't know what they are getting themselves into... they just want to feed their family. So, you take a chance... a scafolding falls on you... your out, your familys out, its all over.

A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.

B. Getting set up as a business is free, and getting your own workmans comp is cheaper than union dues for a year. In fact, in Texas you can get life, liability, workmans comp, and health insurance cheaper than union dues for a a year.

C. If you take a job and don't know what it entails that is on you. Again, personal responsibility.

So your post only proves my point. The free market has produced the better solution.

And, if you don't like the system Crew One has set up, you can work for another company.

However, what choice do I have if I want to work in a closed shop but not be a union member? That is another thing unions destroy, the right to choose.

The free market is always the best solution. If unions can compete in the free market, so be it. If not they deserve to go under.

[EBB]

I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.

Actually I have to disagree. I am not saying that you aren't right. But there are cases like Local 115- which I am out of, where crews are happy to come through. Even though it's a right-to-work state, we have a great union of skilled and unskilled people. But it's a well balanced union. Even when we have large shows that come through town- such as Wicked at the moment. We still have very good people working arena shows and other theatre shows at the same time that are all skilled and can handle the normal tours that come through.

But of course you are right. I have heard of places that have that issue. But I never count right to work states as having more issues than places that have 3 different unions working the same show and houses that can only let union hands touch the tours gear.

edit- I want to point out Local 115 is the IATSE local out of Jacksonville. But we have Northern Florida since Tallahasee doesn't have it's own local.

[meatpopsicle]

A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.

B. Getting set up as a business is free, and getting your own workmans comp is cheaper than union dues for a year. In fact, in Texas you can get life, liability, workmans comp, and health insurance cheaper than union dues for a a year.

C. If you take a job and don't know what it entails that is on you. Again, personal responsibility.

So your post only proves my point. The free market has produced the better solution.

And, if you don't like the system Crew One has set up, you can work for another company.

However, what choice do I have if I want to work in a closed shop but not be a union member? That is another thing unions destroy, the right to choose.

The free market is always the best solution. If unions can compete in the free market, so be it. If not they deserve to go under.

So your postition is that workman's comp takes the place of health insurance? Really?

Health insurance for my family would be in excess of 1500.00 per year, no dental, no perscription. That's 6 times what my dues are.

Even a DBA, no incorporation, is at least 150.00 (more than half my union dues) and carrying my own comp and liability would be in excess of 2000.00 per year.

If being a hand is what I do and the company that has the whole town is a 1099 shop that has no benefits and only workman's comp, where's the choice there? Your view of personal responsibility says that I have to work there or go somewhere else. And that I have to have my own insurance for my family and liability for the job. Pretty Anne Randian bro.

Union means we all band together to make things better for each of us. If that isn't happening down in your neck of the woods I'm sorry. But I think you have a pretty narrow view of the union, and the state of the entertainment business in general, to be making sweeping statements like these.

[DuckJordan]

So your postition is that workman's comp takes the place of health insurance? Really?

Health insurance for my family would be in excess of 1500.00 per year, no dental, no perscription. That's 6 times what my dues are.

Even a DBA, no incorporation, is at least 150.00 (more than half my union dues) and carrying my own comp and liability would be in excess of 2000.00 per year.

If being a hand is what I do and the company that has the whole town is a 1099 shop that has no benefits and only workman's comp, where's the choice there? Your view of personal responsibility says that I have to work there or go somewhere else. And that I have to have my own insurance for my family and liability for the job. Pretty Anne Randian bro.

Union means we all band together to make things better for each of us. If that isn't happening down in your neck of the woods I'm sorry. But I think you have a pretty narrow view of the union, and the state of the entertainment business in general, to be making sweeping statements like these.

How are you paying that little in dues? Don't you get charged per "paycheck" a certain percentage that the union takes out? I'm sorry your situation is by far not the norm. Union dues per year here are roughly $350 per year, and 5% on top of taxes take out of each paycheck you receive. Not to mention they require us to pay in to get life insurance, workman's comp, and other such benefits. sorry the union here would take more than half of my yearly salary.

[meatpopsicle]

How are you paying that little in dues? Don't you get charged per "paycheck" a certain percentage that the union takes out? I'm sorry your situation is by far not the norm. Union dues per year here are roughly $350 per year, and 5% on top of taxes take out of each paycheck you receive. Not to mention they require us to pay in to get life insurance, workman's comp, and other such benefits. sorry the union here would take more than half of my yearly salary.

Our dues are 245.00 and we pay 2 1/2 % of our check to the union. We don't have a contribution to our health plan. We have a huge market and a lot of members.

For arguments sake lets say that your yearly salary is 30,000. You would have too pay in 15,000 a year? How do you explain that?

[shiben]

Our dues are 245.00 and we pay 2 1/2 % of our check to the union. We don't have a contribution to our health plan. We have a huge market and a lot of members.

For arguments sake lets say that your yearly salary is 30,000. You would have too pay in 15,000 a year? How do you explain that?

Being in some place like North Dakota or Wyoming where IA has like 3 members?

[DuckJordan]

Pretty much 20 active members. 10th of which are either not paying in due to them "running" it or not working enough to afford to pay in.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[Esoteric]

Yeah out of $40k that I earned my last year in the union I ended up paying more than $8k.

[SteveB]

Esoteric, you need to check your facts.

1) You stated:

"A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period."

Here's a quote from the Texas Dept. of Insurance website: Workers' Compensation Resources for Employers

"Workers’ compensation is a state-regulated insurance program that provides covered employees with income and medical benefits if they sustain a work-related injury or illness. Texas private employers can choose whether or not to provide workers’ compensation insurance coverage for their employees. In most cases, your employer is required to notify you whether or not
they provide coverage."

Further reading elsewhere indicates that while many companies purchase their own private insurance, mostly to limit liability and usually as a requirement by their general liability insurance companies, it is not out of the goodness of their hearts as it were, and the fact remains that Texas does not require WC and that leaves the employees vulnerable.

2) 1099 "Employees" are not employees, They are contractors and possibly that little distinction escapes you and many employers who choose to hire people as independent contractors to escape their obligations under federal law, in terms of when someone working for you is an employee.

Beyond pointing out those simple little errors in your argument, I'm finished with this discussion. I think the lesson learned is that closed minds tend to stay closed.

[Esoteric]

You are correct Steve. You are not required by law to have workers comp. My liability company requires that I have it. But you are totally right that state law does not require it. That being said, all the companies I work with carry it (because of insurance requirements). I actually never bothered to check why I had to have it. I just knew I did.

When did I ever say anyone did anything out of the kindness of their hearts?

No one (besides charities) do anything from the kindness of their hearts. That is why the free market works. It is based on self interest. That is why it works.

I know very well the difference between a contractor and an employee (probably better than 99% of the people on this board). There are many, many intricacies that most people don't realize. But, for ease of discussion I was using the coloquial meaning of employee.

You and I disagree on one more thing. I believe that there can be intelligent, open minded, well meaning people on both sides of this issue. I don't have to agree with them (I believe they are dead wrong), but honest, civil conversation doesn't have to end with conversion to one side or the other to be fruitful. Sometimes the conversation in itself can be fruit enough. Even though you disagree with me, I still consider you (and most of the pro union guys on this board) intelligent, honest, hard working, open minded, and well meaning people and I am better off for having known you.

[xander]

A. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.

I gave my opinion on the OP 6 months ago when this thread started, and I have kept my opinions on unions to myself because just reading this thread makes me so angry I have to walk away sometimes. I just felt the need to point out that the statement above is just blatantly, 100% false.

-Tim

[Esoteric]

I gave my opinion on the OP 6 months ago when this thread started, and I have kept my opinions on unions to myself because just reading this thread makes me so angry I have to walk away sometimes. I just felt the need to point out that the statement above is just blatantly, 100% false.

-Tim

You are absolutely correct.

[DavidNorth]

There is more thing to keep in mind that I have yet to see discussed. The federal government has continued to tighten the description of contractor to the degree that what used to be a contractor years ago would now be called an employee. Companies have found that by using contractors, and not employees, saves a lot of money.

The basis for this is loss of payroll tax and benefit issues such as Social Security, health care and unemployment insurance.

The number of investigations continues to rise. If you have people working for you as contractors and they are doing employee level work, be aware of getting caught and fined.

Seems to me that for specific individuals being hired on contract, the government will frown upon a lot of yearly 1099 work from a specific company but could probably support a labor company of some sort.

David

[Esoteric]

There is more thing to keep in mind that I have yet to see discussed. The federal government has continued to tighten the description of contractor to the degree that what used to be a contractor years ago would now be called an employee. Companies have found that by using contractors, and not employees, saves a lot of money.

The basis for this is loss of payroll tax and benefit issues such as Social Security, health care and unemployment insurance.

The number of investigations continues to rise. If you have people working for you as contractors and they are doing employee level work, be aware of getting caught and fined.

Seems to me that for specific individuals being hired on contract, the government will frown upon a lot of yearly 1099 work from a specific company but could probably support a labor company of some sort.

David

You are absolutely right. My accountant and lawyer gave me 5 questions to ask to make sure that my contract labor is actually contract labor.