Is Local 829 worth it?

[Esoteric]

My old Mentor and a couple of other LDs I work with from time to time were asking me if I would like to go through the peer review process for USA (they are all members of USA). But I would do at the most 3 gigs a year that I need USA membership for. Would it be worth it to those of you in USA?

[jstandfast]

The operating idea in force is that once you become a member you then cut union contracts for all your design work............ The Chicago office
would be your regional place.

[Footer]

Its just like joining any other union, once you join you should stick to it. You're in a right to work state, so there is no reason to join. If you want to do it for the benefits it brings, do. However, after you join, you should do all your work under their contracts. I'm sure there are ways around that, but that is at least the theory. Its just like joining equity. You have to do it in a time in your life where you feel you can get all your work under the banner of your union. If you don't think you can, don't do it. I'm not sure on how stringent 829 is with outside worker outside of a 829 contract. I know equity actors will come down on actors who do work without an AEA contract and the consequences can be severe. Do your homework before you go and pull the trigger,

[xander]

Its just like joining any other union, once you join you should stick to it. Your in a right to work state, so there is no reason to join. If you want to do it for the benefits it brings, do. However, after you join, you should do all your work under their contracts. I'm sure there are ways around that, but that is at least the theory. Its just like joining equity. You have to do it in a time in your life where you feel you can get all your work under the banner of your union. If you don't think you can, don't do it. I'm not sure on how stringent 829 is with outside worker outside of a 829 contract. I know equity actors will come down on actors who do work without an AEA contract and the consequences can be severe. Do your homework before you go and pull the trigger,

It's not like AEA. You don't have to use a union approved contract if you don't want to. It's just like the rest of IA in that regard. The only thing it can do is help you. It will never hinder you. The only downside is the cost. If you can't justify the several thousand dollars that it costs to join, then it's not right for you at the moment. But if you can make that money back because you have jobs waiting for you, you just need the card, then I think it is worth it. I'm not a member. I'm not a designer. But I have designer friends. Lots in 829, some not. A good friend of mine was just forced to join because he was doing a show on Broadway. He was not very happy about it at the time, but I should ask him how he feels about it now that it's been a while.

They are not really like other labor unions in that they don't really "protect" the worker in regards to hours worked and such and such. Designers just can't really fit into a mold like that. It's the nature of the work. What they can do is set minimum fees and housing standards and the like. And, perhaps the most important thing, if the employer doesn't live up to their end of the bargain (such as not pay you on time/at all) you actually a method of recourse with the threat of IA lawyers behind you. There's also the health benefits that you can buy into.

-Tim

[SteveB]

My wife's an 829 Scenic Artist and in that category they "frown" upon and do not encourage the SA's working non-union. They generally understand that there's not enough work to keep every SA working full, or even part time, but will take action if you are blatantly working a non-union gig in the region they have control, that would normally come under their jurisdiction. With designers, they do not enforce working without a contract.

Part of the reason 829 has become easier to join over the decades is that it eventually dawned on them that having many, many more designers as members A) Looks good for the union, even if the majority don't work under contract and B) Having many more members paying yearly dues (plus that initial initiation fee) while not earning enough to qualify for benefits, helps subsidize those members that are working, contributing to pension and collecting on the medical. Simple economics.

[Esoteric]

Yeah, there are only 3 theaters here that are 829 theaters, and I would end up doing one show at each under an 829 contract. I really want to design in those theaters, but I get the feeling that all the money I make on those gigs would pretty much go to my 829 dues. In addition 90% of my work is non theater (I do many more rig installs for clubs, theaters, churches, etc than I do actual theater design work) so I need to ask them if that will be a problem. But they all seemed to be pushing me toward it with a yeah, do it, its great, no problem, they don't really care about what you do most of the time type thing. So I wanted to check.

[xander]

I would think that if what you are doing is not under their jurisdiction, then they won't care, they can't care. It is when you are doing jobs under their jurisdiction without their contract that they can get uppity because they aren't getting their percentage. But, by all means, talk to your friends. They will know better than us just how your regional people handle it. I wouldn't take my word for it.

[derekleffew]

Saw this blog post, and felt it a good enough reason to revive this thread.

Joining the Union « Focus Notes

[This, and the following ten (10) posts have been moved here from another location.]

[Gern]

Thanks Derek,
That is a nice perspective.
When I came to Hollywood in 1998, I was non union, and didn't think I'd ever need/want to join the union because on my FIRST gig(non-union) a local 33 brother told me horror stories; he felt the unions would be gone in a few years. In 1994 when a feature film I was on struck, I didn't feel I'd join, BUT I DID support the crew and walked with them. We got the contract. It was a tough time(the year end Holidays), but we stuck together with great solidarity and won. Days later in January, I got a call to be a 2nd unit Best Boy @ Universal on a Janusz Kaminski Film. I took the gig, and payed my 1/2 initiation fee the first day of shooting.
I had come to realize that "In Hollywood" a union card was really more of a "right to work on 'anything' pass card".
I have since, come to believe it is even more than that, as like the 'pro's' mentioned in the blog above.
And of course I could work on non union gigs, but over the years I've just gotten tired of the crappy abuse that 'most' non union gigs in town heap on us.

Last non union gig I did was a little flick called Titanic. I called it "the biggest low budget movie ever made".
I was on VFX for a year. 2 antidotes:
A production coordinator actually was happy to "take' some trash cans from her apartment building to use on set for several months. Wow, the money they saved there!
The UPM said to me: "Hey, I just got the "BEST deal in town on porta potties: $35 each a week."
He was truly giddy with excitement. Problem was these units were for the 7 weeks of NIGHT shooting @ Polsa Rosa Ranch in Acton. PRR had NO running water anywhere to wash our hands. The crappy $35 blue room units had no sink to wash-no other portable sinks were provided either. They also lacked lighting and we where shooting nights. So I had to run power to them and install lights.
Wow, the money they saved with those cheapies over the(industry standard in Hollywood) units with lights & sinks!

[Esoteric]

First let me preface this by saying I live/work in Texas and theatrical lighting design is probably 5% of my total business.

That being said, about once a year I get one of my mentors calling me and wanting to talk to me about joining USA. The other two people that I consider "mentors" (who are both USA members) are very apathetic on the subject, but this guy is all in for 829. So every year I consider it (it would look cool on the website to put a Local 829 stamp), and I usually shelve it for later. For me, I do this for a few reasons:

1. I don't travel. I don't want to tour. If someone asked me to go to another city for a tech and opening I guess I would do it, but I am not interested in traveling more than 3-4 weeks a year.

2. There are only two theater companies here in Dallas that require Local 829 designers. Although I would love to work for them, they have been using the same rotation of 4-5 designers for 20-30 years and show no interest in letting anyone else new have a shot.

3. All the other companies here in Dallas hire designers without IATSE affiliation. I have worked for them all, so I don't see a benefit.

4. As I said, only about 5% of our business is theatrical design (I like to do 1 or 2 theater designs a year just for the fun of it). Another 30% is live music, but I have never been asked about USA by the producer for any of the bands I have worked with. In my experience (only 15 years, I will grant), no one in live music really cares. So yeah, it would be cool to be able to do a design here or there that requires it, but not for the money and effort it takes to get it done.

5. I have never had an architect ask me if I was a member of USA. Now they have asked if I was a registered electrical engineer. But never have they asked about that.

6. I don't like Unions. I think they are a relic of a bygone age. The best techs I know are non-union and the union techs I have worked with and hired in the past (5 years with local 207) were, overall, below average. In addition most of the union hierarchy I have dealt with is completely inept and the Locals are very badly run (I have asked for two electricians before and ended up with a Carpenter and a box pusher). Plus, every function the union was once needed for (health and safety, overtime rules, workplace conditions, work schedules, vacation, days off, etc) are now handled by the Federal Government.

7. Of course Texas being a right to work state, the threat of a strike is often met with a laugh.

8. Most good jobs, even if not union, pay union scale.

So, for me, in my situation in Texas (as a technician, designer, and business owner) being a member of USA just doesn't really have any benefits (other than looking cool on the website).

This is just my POV and another take on the subject.

[afgld]

Esoteric -

I appreciate your response, and some valid points were made until you starting getting very negative towards unions and it seems that you yourself are uneducated as to what exactly local 829 is. Here are my responses to your bullet points to help clear up some misconceptions:

2 - I assume you are speaking of LORT theaters? Even then you can be non union and design in those houses. In fact the only place where it's required you have your USA card is broadway and broadway tours. Where I design in DC we have 5 LORT theaters, but the rest of the theaters can and do Union contracts. For those of us full time in this industry, it allots us the basic benefits anyone else gets for their full time job, and given that this is what I do for a living, and I do it well, people are willing to pay the little extra so I can have a regular life.

3 - The benefit is you get benefits. You get a pension, healthcare, welfare, and many others, maybe you didn't read the article where it lays out a pros and cons list.

4 - To say no one in live music cares if you are USA, some very famous Broadway Designers light live music concerts and tours. They are in fact USA. All it is is a different contract to sign

6 - I am sorry that you don't like unions, and I am really sorry you currently trust the federal government to regulate corporations and workers in an era where the Feds are so clearly bought. We work in an industry where we are frequently taken advantage of, and Unions help protect us, and not just us, anyone other brother with a card. Does it mean the union system is perfect, by all means no, but I would much rather a brotherhood of my peers looking out for me than government officials being paid off by corporate america.
Further - to say union hands are bad is a gross over generalization. Sure your call may have been mis handled, but did you take the chance that day to see where the good electricians may be? Maybe there was a bigger national tour in, maybe there was an event that required more skill, or was better paying than your gig would be. There is a hierarchy they follow. I'm sorry your hands weren't up to snuff, but in my professional life I have encountered just as many bad Union as Non Union, but when I speak of elite technicians, all the ones I know are union.

7 - You should look up states with right to work laws. Those states have lower median wages and higher rates of injuries on the job. That should further prove the point in 6. Further, USA doesn't typically strike except for in sympathy with IATSE.

Other than that you make some good points - I don't understand why you need to be so negative and venomous towards unions in an article that was just meant to help people make up their minds about whether or not to join. Being a union designer is an honor. It is like being a guild, where you have put in your time, paid your dues, and proven your skills to be high enough to warrant inclusion into the group.

[Footer]

How many weeks/contracts do you have to work to get the benefits to kick in?

[Gern]

How many weeks/contracts do you have to work to get the benefits to kick in?

I cannot say for USA 829.
As I'm told, West Coast I.A.T.S.E. contract is new members need 600 hours to start coverage. Thereafter, a member needs 400 hours per qualifying period( every 6 months to maintain coverage.

[Gern]

...Plus, every function the union was once needed for (health and safety, overtime rules, workplace conditions, work schedules, vacation, days off, etc) are now handled by the Federal Government.

I respectfully say "RUBBISH!'' AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS.
Whoops, they heard me 100' away on set.

I'm thinking this might start a controversy, but here goes:
Two days ago a member was injured on set. As he lay prone on the floor awaiting transport to the hospital, Production was already telling the best boy to "Take him off the clock when he is taken off stage". I don't feel that is right. Neither does our Locals Business Agent. The BA said to leave him on the clock until he is either transported back to his vehicle, or home. Due to injury he was unable to drive.

I really don't think The Fed's would be helpful regarding this.
I also agree there are different regional philosophies regarding working conditions, and my(& West Coast I.A.T.S.E.'s) stance isn't well received everywhere.

One of the most common daily abuses of non union productions that comes to mind here in California is working 6 hours before a meal break. 6 hours between meals is a Union concession to producers. CA Labor Law states 5 hours!

[EBB]

One of the most common daily abuses of non union productions that comes to mind here in California is working 6 hours before a meal break. 6 hours between meals is a Union concession to producers. CA Labor Law states 5 hours!

I know in the union I am in on the other side of the states, we have our meals and whatnot set up through the houses we work at. Generally all of ours are at 5 hours- though a few are different. But it was all voted in on things like hour minimums, breaks, meals, etc. It seems to me that if that is a problem, the union needs to renegotiate contracts to fix those issues. And if said issues can't be fixed then either take the hit and keep working or just don't work there. Both options have some serious conversation and debate to them. but that's the gist of what I generally hear in situations like that.

[Esoteric]

Esoteric -

I appreciate your response, and some valid points were made until you starting getting very negative towards unions and it seems that you yourself are uneducated as to what exactly local 829 is. Here are my responses to your bullet points to help clear up some misconceptions:

2 - I assume you are speaking of LORT theaters? Even then you can be non union and design in those houses. In fact the only place where it's required you have your USA card is broadway and broadway tours. Where I design in DC we have 5 LORT theaters, but the rest of the theaters can and do Union contracts. For those of us full time in this industry, it allots us the basic benefits anyone else gets for their full time job, and given that this is what I do for a living, and I do it well, people are willing to pay the little extra so I can have a regular life.

3 - The benefit is you get benefits. You get a pension, healthcare, welfare, and many others, maybe you didn't read the article where it lays out a pros and cons list.

4 - To say no one in live music cares if you are USA, some very famous Broadway Designers light live music concerts and tours. They are in fact USA. All it is is a different contract to sign

6 - I am sorry that you don't like unions, and I am really sorry you currently trust the federal government to regulate corporations and workers in an era where the Feds are so clearly bought. We work in an industry where we are frequently taken advantage of, and Unions help protect us, and not just us, anyone other brother with a card. Does it mean the union system is perfect, by all means no, but I would much rather a brotherhood of my peers looking out for me than government officials being paid off by corporate america.
Further - to say union hands are bad is a gross over generalization. Sure your call may have been mis handled, but did you take the chance that day to see where the good electricians may be? Maybe there was a bigger national tour in, maybe there was an event that required more skill, or was better paying than your gig would be. There is a hierarchy they follow. I'm sorry your hands weren't up to snuff, but in my professional life I have encountered just as many bad Union as Non Union, but when I speak of elite technicians, all the ones I know are union.

7 - You should look up states with right to work laws. Those states have lower median wages and higher rates of injuries on the job. That should further prove the point in 6. Further, USA doesn't typically strike except for in sympathy with IATSE.

Other than that you make some good points - I don't understand why you need to be so negative and venomous towards unions in an article that was just meant to help people make up their minds about whether or not to join. Being a union designer is an honor. It is like being a guild, where you have put in your time, paid your dues, and proven your skills to be high enough to warrant inclusion into the group.

I did not mean to seem "venomous" toward unions. I apologize. In their day they were very useful, but have long outlived their usefulness. Maybe part of it is seeing the damage that union labor has done to my wife's home state of Michigan. But, on your individual points.

2. I did misspeak here. I meant companies not theaters. For example, I know that you can be non-union and design in the Wyly theater. But all DTC designers are USA (which I know is by choice, but that is their policy). So I should have said there are a couple of companies (like DTC) that I would love to design for, but a lack of USA membership keeps me from it. I apologize for my error.

3. I am not sure about anywhere else, but here in Texas all the benefits that unions provide are available to any self employed individual. Or you can incorporate yourself (not a bad idea anyway) and get the benefits because you are a corporation. I stand by my assertion that they provide no value in this area.

4. I know that. But having designed for some b level acts (never had a chance to design for a secular a list act) no Producer has ever asked me if I was a member of USA or insisted that I be one.

5. I am sorry, I just don't buy the apocalyptic view of the Federal Government. Perhaps because I am an "evil" corporation? If you feel you are being asked to do something unsafe then perhaps you should do what every other employee in America does and call OSHA and make a report? If your employers are violating state employment rules, again make a report to OSHA, I guarantee they will show up and investigate. If anything, another reason I do not like unions is that they create a dual level of behavior. They hold accountable those who have a contract with them, but they have created this sublevel of the theater world where employers think they can do whatever they want because there are no rules because they are nonunion. I say bull. There are rules that every employer MUST follow.

6. I tried to word that carefully. I suppose I did not word it carefully enough. There are exceptional union hands. There are rubbish nonunion hands. Want to know the difference? I can fire a rubbish nonunion hand and replace them ASAP. Have you ever tried to kick a union hand off a call? In my experience it is almost impossible, and when you do, you won't get another to replace them any time soon (and watch your priority fall down the table). Considering I pay 133%-175% of scale, I doubt there were any better paying gigs that day. However, there may have been higher priority gigs, but I doubt it because the guys I got had a combined 60 years in (at the time these IA's were on a seniority only system). But I asked for electricians and got a carpenter? That is a microcosm of what is wrong with the IA's that I have dealt with (in Texas, Tenn, and Georgia) and unions in general. Too many people lining their pockets and not providing any value in return. Again, no venom meant, just my take on Unions (my brother has been a Teamster for 25 years and I was in IA for 5). And yes, I know this has NOTHING to do with local 829 (except for the fact that I believe it provides no real value to me).

7. First of all median wages depends on the industry. They have higher median wages for blue collar jobs, but for white collar and tech industries it is actually lower. They also have higher cost of living. In addition, they have higher unemployment. My wife escaped a state with a heavy union presence. There were just no jobs. It is a wasteland. But again, that is neither here nor there on the 829 thing.

I guess I see union membership a little different. It is just a means to an end. And in this case it provides very little value for the money. That is my only point.

[derekleffew]

...I'm thinking this might start a controversy, but here goes:
Two days ago a member was injured on set. As he lay prone on the floor awaiting transport to the hospital, Production was already telling the best boy to "Take him off the clock when he is taken off stage". I don't feel that is right. Neither does our Locals Business Agent. The BA said to leave him on the clock until he is either transported back to his vehicle, or home. Due to injury he was unable to drive. ...

(Controversy makes for interesting discussion. )
Company Policy at one place I work is: If an injured employee leaves property to seek medical attention, he/she is paid until the end of his/her scheduled shift. Get injured at five minutes 'til wash-up? Too bad.
At another: Time worked or four-hour minimum, whichever is greater.

[shiben]

I can see where Esoteric is coming from, Especially having been in MI for a couple of years recently. The job market and economy are a joke, but I think that has to do with a union overplaying its hand and getting bitten in the arse, and less with unions being bad by nature. Especially when they get tied into the political culture, it becomes a huge problem.

[SteveB]

Esoteric,

You have somehow totally confused IATSE Local 829 with the many other IATSE theatrical and film locals. Local 829 represents Scenic, Costume, Lighting and Sound designers, as well as Scenic Artists and other crafts. Thus many of your comments have nothing to do with the OP.

The article as posted by Derek was a very well written blog/article by a (presumably) young and up-and-coming lighting designer, detailing his experiences working in the Washington D.C. area and his reasons for joining Local 829 and as such, is a useful article for any members of CB wondering why or when they would want to join.

I am sorry you feel as you do towards unions in general. To state that unions were the cause of the "damage that [union labor] has done to my wife's home state of Michigan" is extraordinarily naive of the myriad problems associated with manufacturing in a world economy. Are there unions that seemingly live in the dark ages and refuse to see the light as it were, and become their own worst enemies ?. Certainly and the United Auto Workers (one of the unions I assume you are blaming for the state of Michigan's largest manufacturing business - the auto industry being in decline) are typical, but are you stating that the management at GM or Ford or Chrysler are not to blame as well ?.

I would actually classify the IATSE as one of the smartest unions in the US today, having first hand witnessed the successful unionization of my own facility (I am no longer an IATSE member as BTW, having given it up when I took my current college position), where the union was very aware of the universities limitations in this initial contract, as well as the unions recognition of the need to get the foot in the door and to get representation now, for workers that had none. Are the employees better off ?. Absolutely. They get a meal penalty now for when the timing of an event or load-in forces them to work hours that are in violation of State of NY Labor Law. They get overtime when asked to work before 7AM. They get monies put into a welfare and pension fund. Do they make more per hour ?. No, but they get benefits now and didn't before. That's what a union provides for and in this case and many others is a success for the employees.

Is the US better off having had such a strong history of union representation ?. Yes it is. If you believe otherwise, you are buying into a load of BS as put forth by corporate America and the US government.

[Esoteric]

(Controversy makes for interesting discussion. )
Company Policy at one place I work is: If an injured employee leaves property to seek medical attention, he/she is paid until the end of his/her scheduled shift. Get injured at five minutes 'til wash-up? Too bad.
At another: Time worked or four-hour minimum, whichever is greater.

Yeah, in the real world no one gets paid if they have to be taken away. My dad had a heart attack at work, and they clocked him out when the ambulance was called. The company owner later decided of his own good will to pay him for the entire week without taking up vacation pay, but if you aren't on the floor working, no one owes you a check.

By the way, I did not confuse anything. If you read my responses I noted that many of them were neither here nor there. But considering that Local 829 doesn't provide any value, my overall feelings on unions effect my view of 829. I did a ton of research the first time someone asked me to join.

As far as the history of unionization? Absolutely. There was a time when unions were absolutely essential and drove America into having a safe and viable workplace. That time has passed now and unions serve no purpose that is not provided by either the USFG or numerous other private companies. We are absolutely better off for having Unions. But they have long outlived their usefulness.

By the way, and this is REALLY OT, but of course management is partly to blame for the state of the American auto industry. But even if management makes the necessary changes (which they are on their way to doing) they are handcuffed by UAW and will never be able to compete.

The only reason I put in my feelings on unions in general is because they effect my feelings on all union interactions including the prospect of joining local 829.

The example you give points out some of the flaws of unions. They drive up costs with ridiculous rules. Overtime pay for working before 7:00AM? What a ripoff. My dad used to start work at 5:30 every day. Should he get an hour and a half of overtime every day? Overtime is just that. It is compensation for working over the allotted work day (8 hours in the US). Not for arriving or leaving at a particular time or on a particular day. I once made over $100 an hour at a gig because of union bonuses. At the time I loved it. Now, I see how ridiculous that was and why that particular company started calling nonunion hands from then on. I use several union hands, but not under union contracts. I refuse to be handicapped like that. Again I know none of this has to do with the OP, but for a group that offers no real value anyway for me, my overreaching feelings on unions contribute to my thought every year to put the idea on the shelf and do other more useful things, like paying for workers comp coverage.

[shiben]

I would actually classify the IATSE as one of the smartest unions in the US today

Would you consider that the case when you look at the ludicrous situation in Chicago? I know its not just the IA, but they certainly are a big part of a very large problem here, and its costing us as a city a lot of work for all hands. It makes my non-union job nice, as there is plenty of work from people fed up with using Local 2, but at the same time, when one of the largest Show Halls in the country is loosing business due to an incredibly high cost (thanks to Unions), who are they serving?

[Footer]

Would you consider that the case when you look at the ludicrous situation in Chicago? I know its not just the IA, but they certainly are a big part of a very large problem here, and its costing us as a city a lot of work for all hands. It makes my non-union job nice, as there is plenty of work from people fed up with using Local 2, but at the same time, when one of the largest Show Halls in the country is loosing business due to an incredibly high cost (thanks to Unions), who are they serving?

And then you get responses from labor companies like Chicago Stagehand.

* We don't charge meal penalties, we are happy to keep working until there is a natural break that makes sense for all parties concerned.
* No department lines, we work as a team. All for one and one for all. Loaders can be hands, audio can help lighting, carpenters can help wardrobe, etc.
* We crew well balanced teams with people of various backgrounds and levels of experience in order to meet clients best interests.
* Your crew and technicians can handle their own gear and push their own cases if they choose. We're here to help, just let us know where and how you want something placed.
* We offer 5 and 8 hour minimums for stagehands and half and full day rates for our specialty positions.
* All hourly rates are inclusive of taxes, fees and insurance. We don't charge you vacation pay or retirement fees.

[Esoteric]

I agree, and like I said when a call asks for electricians and gets sent carpenters just because they have more seniority, I can't buy it as being a "smart" union. Also, see above.

[mstaylor]

I am not an IATSE member but I will concede that of the many unions, they are probably the best. That said, there some cities that take the rules to stupid level that is counterproductive. I assure you that guys in the business can easily name the good locals and the bad. I have traveled and used local crews, union and nonunion. Nothing more frustrating to walk into a union house, where you have higher expectations, and have to talk riggers through points. 22 in DC is definitely one of the better locals on the east coast. One thing that I take issue with is using the senority as a basis of getting calls. I agree that it is important but if I have a younger guy that is better, I will schedule him over a more senior but less talented tech or hand.

[derekleffew]

... but if I have a younger guy that is better, I will schedule him over a more senior but less talented tech or hand.

"I'm sure you'd like that, sir, but sixty-five year-old Ethel here has seniority."

[Esoteric]

"I'm sure you'd like that, sir, but eighty-seven year-old Gladys here has seniority."

I almost spit all over my monitor. You think you are joking but we had a projectionist who was about 50 or 60 years in I guess, and every now and then he would get an urge to try something new and since he had the right of first refusal you would get an 80 year old hand on an electrics call. It would take him an hour to get up the ladder. Actually he would spend most of his time talking and drinking coffee.

We also had a guy called Rocky the Ground Squirrel. He would get in on all the rigging calls, but would never go up. Hell he wouldn't climb to the top of a 10' ladder. But he was in on every rigging call even if there was no ground work to be done.

I had at least 3 or 4 tours roll through town and hire me directly because they requested me from the union and were told that there were people who would have to be called first. That really chapped the union guys.

Now, admittedly this was one of the worst run locals in the country probably, but what a collection of characters.

[Van]

I'm sorry Esoteric, but I just can't hold my tongue. Your Opinions and positions on labor and Unions are laughable.
why do we need unions when all the services they provide, "... are already provided by the Federal Government.." I'm sorry since when does the Government provide Health insurance? Since when does the Government provide ongoing training to maintain minimum standards in an industry ? You say that the Unions provide nothing that wait let me find a quote...

" I am not sure about anywhere else, but here in Texas all the benefits that unions provide are available to any self employed individual. Or you can incorporate yourself (not a bad idea anyway) and get the benefits because you are a corporation. I stand by my assertion that they provide no value in this area."
Really ? Really ? you're saying that a Self employed stagehand working in the Dallas FTW area can afford to,not only incorporate himself but pay for his own health insurance, Unemployment insurance, and retirement fund ? Oh but wait I forgot, " ...Considering I pay 133%-175% of scale..." So I can assume everyone working for you is able to pay for all the afformentioned. What is Scale in the Dallas / FTW Metroplex ?

I'm sorry I just delelted the rest of this post I spent the last 45 minutes writing. No matter what I say it's not going change your opinion. I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas.

[meatpopsicle]

Yeah, in the real world no one gets paid if they have to be taken away. My dad had a heart attack at work, and they clocked him out when the ambulance was called. The company owner later decided of his own good will to pay him for the entire week without taking up vacation pay, but if you aren't on the floor working, no one owes you a check.


As far as the history of unionization? Absolutely. There was a time when unions were absolutely essential and drove America into having a safe and viable workplace. That time has passed now and unions serve no purpose that is not provided by either the USFG or numerous other private companies. We are absolutely better off for having Unions. But they have long outlived their usefulness.


The example you give points out some of the flaws of unions. They drive up costs with ridiculous rules. Overtime pay for working before 7:00AM? What a ripoff. My dad used to start work at 5:30 every day. Should he get an hour and a half of overtime every day? Overtime is just that. It is compensation for working over the allotted work day (8 hours in the US). Not for arriving or leaving at a particular time or on a particular day. I once made over $100 an hour at a gig because of union bonuses. At the time I loved it. Now, I see how ridiculous that was and why that particular company started calling nonunion hands from then on. .

Nobody in my local gets o.t. for coming in prior to 7:00am (night differential) We used to, and some of the old timers like to bring it up that "we lost that one", but it's not anywhere in our contract. Our contract is, I would venture, one of the best in the industry. We have a very high cost of living here in NY and our negotiators have been able to maintain wages to compensate. And at the same time the employers make a huge amount of money in my end of the business and still cry about wages. One network show shooting right now has a theatrical unit building a show with a Broadway Lighting Designer, Broadway programmmer and they won't buy Coffee for the crew. This is a major network!

I'm not sure of what the ridiculous rules you speak of are. In my local we get a meal penalties if we arn't given a meal break every 6 hours. There is no coffee break in the contract. O.T. starts after 8 and goes to D.T. after 12. Do you find that ridiculous? That after 12 hours of working we shouldn't be compensated for the long hours? And generally we don't allow a shooting day longer than 16 hours. if it goes longer than 14 hours, producers are supposed to arrange for housing or transportation. This was after a number of members were killed getting into car wrecks driving home after a 16 hour day and 70 hour week.

I don't know how I would support my family if I didn't belong to the IA. Well, I do, but it would be a lot closer to the poverty line, with no health insurance besides what the Federal government offers children, if that hasn't already been stripped away in the fight over budgets. Certainly nobody in the FG or at any private company has maintained wages and working conditions the way the union has. Unions outdated? No way. They are needed now, more than ever.

A friend of mine's father had a saying "You eat alone, you choke"

[mstaylor]

Some of the actions of unions have been questioned but with few explanations.
1. Meal penalties: This happens mostly in union houses but in some nonunion houes as well. I don't see it as a problem, not breaking to eat should compensated.
2. High wages: While some areas have fairly high rates compared to other industries in the same area, it is the exception not the rule. Every house negotiates their contract and pay is one part.
3. Senority: I do see this often. Guys getting calls because they are senior not because they can do the job. I am 53, have had 4 heart attacks, two bad knees and a partially torn archilles. I can still get in a truck and load but my 19 and 23 yr olds are better at it.
4. Departmentalization: While being more knowledgable in an area is good, it can lead to bad things. I have seen houses where if a set is being built and it requires something to be plugged in it can only be done by an electrician. Or houses where Teamsters do the loading and they won't allow hands on the truck and viceversa.
5. Unusual rules: A prime example is not allowing a show to handle their gear.

Some of the rules make sense but as with many things, they get taken to an extreme and then they are counterproductive. There are other unions that are much worse about it but there are some locals that aren't good.
Even if the union isn't getting the hands more pay, most of the time they do get benefits for them. This is worth much more than a raise sometimes. They also do promote training, which is great.
There are some great advantages to unions but they can be their own worse enemy sometimes.

[Esoteric]

I'm sorry Esoteric, but I just can't hold my tongue. Your Opinions and positions on labor and Unions are laughable.
why do we need unions when all the services they provide, "... are already provided by the Federal Government.." I'm sorry since when does the Government provide Health insurance? Since when does the Government provide ongoing training to maintain minimum standards in an industry ? You say that the Unions provide nothing that wait let me find a quote...

" I am not sure about anywhere else, but here in Texas all the benefits that unions provide are available to any self employed individual. Or you can incorporate yourself (not a bad idea anyway) and get the benefits because you are a corporation. I stand by my assertion that they provide no value in this area."
Really ? Really ? you're saying that a Self employed stagehand working in the Dallas FTW area can afford to,not only incorporate himself but pay for his own health insurance, Unemployment insurance, and retirement fund ? Oh but wait I forgot, " ...Considering I pay 133%-175% of scale..." So I can assume everyone working for you is able to pay for all the afformentioned. What is Scale in the Dallas / FTW Metroplex ?

I'm sorry I just delelted the rest of this post I spent the last 45 minutes writing. No matter what I say it's not going change your opinion. I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas.

Yes, here in Texas self employed individuals can purchase health insurance, and even through the state if necessary. You can get career training from many private sources.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Incorporation only costs $900 one time fee. We pay $2k a year for all our insurance and stuff. They should be able to if they want. Scale in Dallas last time I checked was $27/hr.

I wouldn't care if someone posted them. I don't use the union anyway.

[Esoteric]

"I'm not sure of what the ridiculous rules you speak of are. In my local we get a meal penalties if we arn't given a meal break every 6 hours. There is no coffee break in the contract. O.T. starts after 8 and goes to D.T. after 12. Do you find that ridiculous? That after 12 hours of working we shouldn't be compensated for the long hours? And generally we don't allow a shooting day longer than 16 hours. if it goes longer than 14 hours, producers are supposed to arrange for housing or transportation. This was after a number of members were killed getting into car wrecks driving home after a 16 hour day and 70 hour week.

I don't know how I would support my family if I didn't belong to the IA. Well, I do, but it would be a lot closer to the poverty line, with no health insurance besides what the Federal government offers children, if that hasn't already been stripped away in the fight over budgets. Certainly nobody in the FG or at any private company has maintained wages and working conditions the way the union has."

Those rules are perfectly normal. Well, except for the transport thing, that is a bit ridiculous. My wife works 20 hour days and doesn't get a ride home from her employer. In fact, the state of Texas enforces those rules for every worker.

Well, I know many stagehands here in Texas that are not IA and support their families just fine. *shrugs*

[Esoteric]

Some of the actions of unions have been questioned but with few explanations.
1. Meal penalties: This happens mostly in union houses but in some nonunion houes as well. I don't see it as a problem, not breaking to eat should compensated.
2. High wages: While some areas have fairly high rates compared to other industries in the same area, it is the exception not the rule. Every house negotiates their contract and pay is one part.
3. Senority: I do see this often. Guys getting calls because they are senior not because they can do the job. I am 53, have had 4 heart attacks, two bad knees and a partially torn archilles. I can still get in a truck and load but my 19 and 23 yr olds are better at it.
4. Departmentalization: While being more knowledgable in an area is good, it can lead to bad things. I have seen houses where if a set is being built and it requires something to be plugged in it can only be done by an electrician. Or houses where Teamsters do the loading and they won't allow hands on the truck and viceversa.
5. Unusual rules: A prime example is not allowing a show to handle their gear.

Some of the rules make sense but as with many things, they get taken to an extreme and then they are counterproductive. There are other unions that are much worse about it but there are some locals that aren't good.
Even if the union isn't getting the hands more pay, most of the time they do get benefits for them. This is worth much more than a raise sometimes. They also do promote training, which is great.
There are some great advantages to unions but they can be their own worse enemy sometimes.

Fair enough.

[sk8rsdad]

I can think of a ridiculous rule that the local IATSE tried to institute with the City. They were trying to negotiate their presence for every rental of every city facility, including community centers, seniors centers, and all sorts of places that have nothing to do with IATSE other than they get used for performances from time to time. Can you imagine a cub scout troop having to pay for a 4-hour call so the IATSE guy could flick the light switch as they enter the room? Fortunately the other unions got into a jurisdictional turf war and IATSE backed down. The small community theatre groups were all looking at their budgets and thinking about folding since a single 4-hour call might be their entire revenue for a performance.

It's a shame, because a lot of those community groups would like to work with IATSE on things like safety, and hire them on a case-by-case basis when specific skills are required, but they are now all in the "give them an inch and they'll cause my group to fold" mindset. I'd like to get an ETCP Certified rigger out of the local chapter to come by every year or so for an inspection but it feels safer to pay to fly in a vendor rep from Toronto less frequently.

[SteveB]

I can think of a ridiculous rule that the local IATSE tried to institute with the City. They were trying to negotiate their presence for every rental of every city facility, including community centers, seniors centers, and all sorts of places that have nothing to do with IATSE other than they get used for performances from time to time. Can you imagine a cub scout troop having to pay for a 4-hour call so the IATSE guy could flick the light switch as they enter the room? Fortunately the other unions got into a jurisdictional turf war and IATSE backed down. The small community theatre groups were all looking at their budgets and thinking about folding since a single 4-hour call might be their entire revenue for a performance.

It's a shame, because a lot of those community groups would like to work with IATSE on things like safety, and hire them on a case-by-case basis when specific skills are required, but they are now all in the "give them an inch and they'll cause my group to fold" mindset. I'd like to get an ETCP Certified rigger out of the local chapter to come by every year or so for an inspection but it feels safer to pay to fly in a vendor rep from Toronto less frequently.

First off it's not a "ridiculous rule" it's a negotiating point that probably and often never gets into a contract. And isn't this what a union SHOULD be doing ?, finding work for the members ?. Every union makes an effort to get a contract with venues where the jurisdiction of the union applies. You stated "have nothing to do with IATSE other than they get used for performances from time to time". So where do you draw the line when a venue starts getting more and more technically sophisticated and requires trained and/or at least, skilled stagehands to safely operate the equipment. Certainly turning on a light switch is beyond the scope, but we all know and have experienced scenarios when that little cub scout troop turns into a musical with a rental and at that point, those audio and lighting console operators could well be represented by IATSE.

Now is that to state that every IATSE local is chock full of experienced stagehands, some with ETCP certification ?. Hardly. How many of these locals have enough work to allow it's members to gain the skill set found at the busiest locals ?. ****ed few typically. How many of these locals are made up of members that are moonlighting as stagehands, as they cannot support their families on the limited amount of work in the local. That's a typical scenario, sad to say.

As to my comment that some folks took exception too, about overtime prior to 7AM. Yes the Local One folks get that at this venue. They also have a negotiated salary range that starts at $12hr. with a top out at around $28 (that's a City University contract rate). If you are full time at that rate, it's about $50,000 per year and in this area you'd have a very hard time supporting a family and paying a mortgage on that salary. Plus there are exactly 2 folks working full time, the rest (about 12 to 20 or so) are lucky if they get 20 hrs regular for 40 weeks of work. So no medical paid unless they can find enough work in the local to finish out their $36,000 yearly requirement for minimum medical. I actually don't know any of our crew that make that in a year.

The meal penalty is an attempt to deal the problem of NY State Law requiring a 1/2 hr. break after 5 hrs consecutive worked, which is a huge problem when you come back from dinner at 7PM, work a 4 hr. show then strike. If you take the half hour, you stop the load-out, which then runs late, which then costs the promoter and then he don't want to come back. So the union say's OK, we'll keep working (against state law) and take the hour. I sat at the light console Wed, night for a Gospel show. Was at the desk at 6:20PM for a 6:30 show, which actually started at 6:45. It ended at 11:15PM, 4-1/2 hrs. later. Then we loaded out till 1AM. So 6-1/2 hrs. worked with no break. If I was non-union, I'd simply have to suck it up and work. Because I am union (teachers), I have someone to complain too, had my Production Manager not seen the light and promised to work in relief operators to avoid a complaint with the unions, Human Resources Dept and Labor Board. The IATSE folks took the meal penalty, which is straight time, and should by 1-1/2 time but isn't (yet), the concept being that the penalty should be just that, a penalty for working folks without relief.

[Esoteric]

Interesting. Here in Texas, if you work 6 hours you get a half hour lunch. But it doesn't matter when during the shift you get the lunch, as long as you get it. So it could be a half hour into the shift or nine and a half hours into the shift (I believe at 10 hours it becomes a 1 hour lunch). That is why I feel the meal penalty is a bit ridiculous. I could see it being useful if you had to take a lunch at the prescribed time.

We have the opposite problem here. The union get a 15 minute break every two hours (plus the half hour lunch) and will literally put down their tools and walk away when the steward calls time. I am on board for breaks as it keeps the body and mind fresh. But the IATSE breaks can come at very inconvenient moments, and they really don't care.

Add to that the other ridiculous (IMHO) rules above (like a venue not being able to operate its own equipment, having to call 4 techs for a job that would only take 2, etc, etc) and you can see why the IA down here gets no work (outside the one LORT theater in town).

[rochem]

We have the opposite problem here. The union get a 15 minute break every two hours (plus the half hour lunch) and will literally put down their tools and walk away when the steward calls time. I am on board for breaks as it keeps the body and mind fresh. But the IATSE breaks can come at very inconvenient moments, and they really don't care.

There are a lot of great points in this thread that I'd like to talk about, but since others seem to have them well covered, I won't add to the chorus. However, I will comment on this point by saying that perhaps you should reevaluate how you schedule your day. You knew a long time before you walked in the door that the union WOULD take a break at exactly two hours into the call. It's not coming as a surprise, so if you're in the middle of a critical project when that two hours hits, you have no one to blame but the person directing the work - namely, you. In my local, the steward usually comes around to the department heads with about 10-15 minutes before the break to make sure everyone is reminded about the break and will be able to plan around it - but even if he doesn't come around, the bosses are smart enough to realize that they shouldn't direct the locals to start hanging a three-point bridle with 5 minutes left until break.

Out of curiosity, if you had the power to set all these rules yourself, how would you suggest that it be done? Can you honestly say that you'd prefer it if every guy just got to choose when they wanted their own 15-minute break? Would you prefer if the steward just got to choose when he wanted to give everyone a break? Would you want to just have the head (you) decide when to give the break, regardless of when it is? I'm sure you are a good boss and would in fact give a reasonable break, but a large percentage of bosses are not, and would take advantage of the system without thinking twice. Most, if not all, of these rules are in place because somebody at one time abused the system. Also, in nearly every local, the breaks need to happen "no later than" the time specified, two hours in your case. If you reach a good stopping point at 1:45 into the call, talk to the steward and have them call coffee right then. But if the local decides to give you some leeway "just this once," then what happens when you come back for the next show and get angry because they're not giving you the same deal? Being even a little lenient on the rules is a very slippery slope, and it's usually not worth the risk.

[Gern]

One is a matter of frequency maybe. Think about working conditions as a way it will be everyday, day in day out, 5, 6 maybe 7 days a week. I actually worked 36 days strait on a film during a 11 month shooting period.
So, I'm a little confused about this part:

... Here in Texas, if you work 6 hours you get a half hour lunch. But it doesn't matter when during the shift you get the lunch, as long as you get it. So it could be a half hour into the shift or nine and a half hours into the shift (I believe at 10 hours it becomes a 1 hour lunch). That is why I feel the meal penalty is a bit ridiculous. I could see it being useful if you had to take a lunch at the prescribed time.

Wow, so you don't see a problem working people for 9 1/2 hours(or more) before giving a meal break. People that will be doing hard, dangerous work. What if your lucky enough to get the work for more than a day or two. What about a week. Or two weeks. Where do you draw the line. If it is just a small job it is OK to push people to great time lengths. Does this Texas Law mean a crew could be worked for 14 hours then given a 1 hour meal break. I MUST be getting that wrong. If you did a schedule like that for multiple days I feel it would get unsafe. I'm very fortunately constantly employed. My Films & TV shows all work over 50hour weeks, usually up to the mid 70 hour mark.
Am I a primadonna because I want a meal every 6 hours or I get COMPENSATED for it. I don't care if people think so. My CA state law is 5 hours so yes my IA contract GIVES that to the producer. My contract also has 1 15 minute break each 6 hour block of work. But in the 20 years I've been working professionally(meaning gigs I pay my bills with, as opposed to the many free shows I do for various charities across the southland every year) I have NEVER ever seen a shooting crew take a 15 minute break. Smokers will pop out for a smoke, but put out immediately when called. Which I feel get us to the meaning to some of the word professional. If a person chooses to call them selves a profession because that is technically correct if one is paid, as opposed to the attitude of work, so be it. I'm not one of those. Case in point, I was a "professional" photographer at the early age of 15. Sold my first of many prints to the local paper. I even took THE picture of Steve Wozniaks' plane crash that went world-wide AP. I still am in love with photography and shoot for some clients. I do not consider myself, nor represent myself as a "professional" photographer only because I do not have the attitude that all the professional photogs I know do. That mainly being the drive to learn the craft to the best of their abilities, not just point & click. To strive to do the best job possible. I mention all this to help illustrate the issue you mentioned about the union dropping everything at a un-opertune time. I think that sounds like a personality conflict. I always see discussions between departments when rigging as to when to COORDINATE our breaks. Sure, we like to take it maybe at 3 hours into the day, but if we need to work with other departments we talk AND work WITH them. That I feel is being professional. It isn't in our contract WHEN exactly to call coffee break. See what I mean?
I'm sure glad you're happy where you are, I'm happy where I am. Places are different.
BTW MP's pay was as follows;
$7.50 first 1/2 hour
$10.00 next 1/2 hour
$12.50 every 1/2 hour thereafter until a 30 min break.
Incorporating in CA does incur an annual fee over $500 in pretty sure.
I think the union has improved and protected working conditions, not created ways to 'stick it to the man'. I don't think they are perfect by any stretch. I think if a union member is going to 'act-out' and do the things like call a break when it clearly hinders the none break taking workers, they are just a person with a bad attitude about something anyway. They would be the type of person I'd wager that in the rest of their daily lives they looking everywhere for a way to scam themselves better or are bad in other ways. It is a greedy behavior trait I think. We can find examples all throughout society, from positions of power like Governors releasing murderers to the dregs of society preying on innocent victims, like the scum murderers who killed an ELS Lighting employee this week in a robbery in North Hollywood. Luckily, in life not everyone is like that.
I don't see this threads posts so much as a union induced problems, but more as personality conflicts.

[Esoteric]

There are a lot of great points in this thread that I'd like to talk about, but since others seem to have them well covered, I won't add to the chorus. However, I will comment on this point by saying that perhaps you should reevaluate how you schedule your day. You knew a long time before you walked in the door that the union WOULD take a break at exactly two hours into the call. It's not coming as a surprise, so if you're in the middle of a critical project when that two hours hits, you have no one to blame but the person directing the work - namely, you. In my local, the steward usually comes around to the department heads with about 10-15 minutes before the break to make sure everyone is reminded about the break and will be able to plan around it - but even if he doesn't come around, the bosses are smart enough to realize that they shouldn't direct the locals to start hanging a three-point bridle with 5 minutes left until break.

Out of curiosity, if you had the power to set all these rules yourself, how would you suggest that it be done? Can you honestly say that you'd prefer it if every guy just got to choose when they wanted their own 15-minute break? Would you prefer if the steward just got to choose when he wanted to give everyone a break? Would you want to just have the head (you) decide when to give the break, regardless of when it is? I'm sure you are a good boss and would in fact give a reasonable break, but a large percentage of bosses are not, and would take advantage of the system without thinking twice. Most, if not all, of these rules are in place because somebody at one time abused the system. Also, in nearly every local, the breaks need to happen "no later than" the time specified, two hours in your case. If you reach a good stopping point at 1:45 into the call, talk to the steward and have them call coffee right then. But if the local decides to give you some leeway "just this once," then what happens when you come back for the next show and get angry because they're not giving you the same deal? Being even a little lenient on the rules is a very slippery slope, and it's usually not worth the risk.

You can't control everything about a call no matter how hard you try. Perhaps you start a 3 point bridle with 45 minutes to spare, but you encounter problems and need another 10 minutes to finish. But the steward says "nope, sorry" and so you waste all the time of guys getting down, taking their break, going back up, etc. That is ridiculous. But I have had it happen.

I believe in the person with the overall view and plan of what is going on calling breaks and lunches.

If you don't get your mandated break, report the employer to OSHA just like every other worker in the nation has to.

I also had a steward tell me if I called the break at 1:00 (which I wanted to do) then instead of doing 3 hours of work when we got back, the clock would restart and there would be another break 2 hours from that point. Completely insane.

[Esoteric]

One is a matter of frequency maybe. Think about working conditions as a way it will be everyday, day in day out, 5, 6 maybe 7 days a week. I actually worked 36 days strait on a film during a 11 month shooting period.
So, I'm a little confused about this part:

Wow, so you don't see a problem working people for 9 1/2 hours(or more) before giving a meal break. People that will be doing hard, dangerous work. What if your lucky enough to get the work for more than a day or two. What about a week. Or two weeks. Where do you draw the line. If it is just a small job it is OK to push people to great time lengths. Does this Texas Law mean a crew could be worked for 14 hours then given a 1 hour meal break. I MUST be getting that wrong. If you did a schedule like that for multiple days I feel it would get unsafe. I'm very fortunately constantly employed. My Films & TV shows all work over 50hour weeks, usually up to the mid 70 hour mark.
Am I a primadonna because I want a meal every 6 hours or I get COMPENSATED for it. I don't care if people think so. My CA state law is 5 hours so yes my IA contract GIVES that to the producer. My contract also has 1 15 minute break each 6 hour block of work. But in the 20 years I've been working professionally(meaning gigs I pay my bills with, as opposed to the many free shows I do for various charities across the southland every year) I have NEVER ever seen a shooting crew take a 15 minute break. Smokers will pop out for a smoke, but put out immediately when called. Which I feel get us to the meaning to some of the word professional. If a person chooses to call them selves a profession because that is technically correct if one is paid, as opposed to the attitude of work, so be it. I'm not one of those. Case in point, I was a "professional" photographer at the early age of 15. Sold my first of many prints to the local paper. I even took THE picture of Steve Wozniaks' plane crash that went world-wide AP. I still am in love with photography and shoot for some clients. I do not consider myself, nor represent myself as a "professional" photographer only because I do not have the attitude that all the professional photogs I know do. That mainly being the drive to learn the craft to the best of their abilities, not just point & click. To strive to do the best job possible. I mention all this to help illustrate the issue you mentioned about the union dropping everything at a un-opertune time. I think that sounds like a personality conflict. I always see discussions between departments when rigging as to when to COORDINATE our breaks. Sure, we like to take it maybe at 3 hours into the day, but if we need to work with other departments we talk AND work WITH them. That I feel is being professional. It isn't in our contract WHEN exactly to call coffee break. See what I mean?
I'm sure glad you're happy where you are, I'm happy where I am. Places are different.
BTW MP's pay was as follows;
$7.50 first 1/2 hour
$10.00 next 1/2 hour
$12.50 every 1/2 hour thereafter until a 30 min break.
Incorporating in CA does incur an annual fee over $500 in pretty sure.
I think the union has improved and protected working conditions, not created ways to 'stick it to the man'. I don't think they are perfect by any stretch. I think if a union member is going to 'act-out' and do the things like call a break when it clearly hinders the none break taking workers, they are just a person with a bad attitude about something anyway. They would be the type of person I'd wager that in the rest of their daily lives they looking everywhere for a way to scam themselves better or are bad in other ways. It is a greedy behavior trait I think. We can find examples all throughout society, from positions of power like Governors releasing murderers to the dregs of society preying on innocent victims, like the scum murderers who killed an ELS Lighting employee this week in a robbery in North Hollywood. Luckily, in life not everyone is like that.
I don't see this threads posts so much as a union induced problems, but more as personality conflicts.

The laws on this are VERY complicated, and full of exceptions and such. But yes, you can work 13 hours a day (the maximum work day length unless you are exempted) every day (Monday - Friday) and there is no regulation on when your lunch break falls.

Perhaps the locals there in CA and in the film industry out there are different. But in MY EXPERIENCE with locals in Texas and Tennessee there is certainly a "stick it to the man" attitude. And as "the man" it bothers me when labor doesn't want to work with me. So I quit hiring union guys.

[Grog12]

The laws on this are VERY complicated, and full of exceptions and such. But yes, you can work 13 hours a day (the maximum work day length unless you are exempted) every day (Monday - Friday) and there is no regulation on when your lunch break falls.

Yet another reason not to live in Texas. Labor laws (not union rules) in Colorado state that for every 4 hour period you work you have to be broken for a half hour unpaid meal. For every 2 hours you work you are to be given a 15 minute unpaid break. They can be combined into a one hour unpaid lunch break for an 8 hour day.