Conventional Fixtures - Pan Bolt Discussion

[jglodeklights]

As I am both a designer and technician, I understand the need to put lights in crappy places, but understanding of the need to take time to focus them safely and properly when I'm the LD on the deck and not the electrician on the ladder. That said, as a technician, I tell the designers I work with to put the light where they need it. Exactly why I default to the pan bolt/set screw, but have no problem going to the yoke bolt if need be. Lights will end up in weird positions like on a 37 degree diagonal, but lack the proper hardware to hang them straight. I've had to pan units via the pan/set screw, yoke bolt and Clamp Bolt; while having half my body though an extension ladder. Thus, why I don't expect technicians to do anything I would not do, or to do things exactly how I would. I will make suggestions as either a designer or technician based on my experience in a space, but I don't try to force technique on anyone.

[derekleffew]

... or O clamps ...

...I am totally down with the O clamp thing. ...

Let's nip this in the bud right now. It's called a half-coupler, not an O clamp. If you want to call it that, Google "o clamp" and see which manufacturers are returned. I rest my case.

[shiben]

Let's nip this in the bud right now. It's called a half-coupler, not an O clamp. If you want to call it that, Google "o clamp" and see which manufacturers are returned. I rest my case.

Well thank you mr. correct. It looks like an O, and Im in a terrible mood (also, the googling I did had all sorts of variations of a half coupler, if yours is returning some form of porn I just have to ask what the majority of your google searches are).

[Footer]

if yours is returning some form of porn I just have to ask what the majority of your google searches are.

I just needed to reply to this in some way, shape, or form. I'll leave it at that. I must resist, I really, REALLY must.


....and T-handles are great... as long as they are from the Lightsource.

[mstaylor]

Actually an O clamp is a plastic DJ coupler. That was what I think he was referencing.

[Gern]

Actually an O clamp is a plastic DJ coupler. That was what I think he was referencing.

I once heard of an 'o-clamp' being used on camera in a porno once...
course it didn't look anything like the images in this thread.



JK
just trying to lighten the mood...

We call them Grid Clamps...made by Mathews

[shiben]

I once heard of an 'o-clamp' being used on camera in a porno once...
course it didn't look anything like the images in this thread.



JK
just trying to lighten the mood...

We call them Grid Clamps...made by Mathews

LOL! Im pretty much a noob when it comes to things like this (at least in WoW you get to stop calling yourself a noob after 4 years...) and have only used them a few times, but I liked those thingies (whatever they might be called) whenever I used them. I really need to get out on the road or something and get some "Real" experience.

[chausman]

Well, as an unpaid "technician" I don't like the mega-clamps. The extra turns don't help me. Especially when I'm the only person doing anything as far as lighting. But, that's not as common for most of the people on here.


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- Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tex]

Let's nip this in the bud right now. It's called a half-coupler, not an O clamp. If you want to call it that, Google "o clamp" and see which manufacturers are returned. I rest my case.

Looks like a Cheeseborough clamp to me...

[headcrab]

A cheeseborough would be two of those connected.

[Tex]

A cheeseborough would be two of those connected.

... and that's why there's a winking smiley.
You will, however hear a half coupler called a half cheeseborough or just a cheeseborough. My post was simply an attempt to get a rise out of our resident pedantist.

[Esoteric]

Yeah, we used to call those half cheese.

The only reason I care is because of the time it takes to bring the unit down and replace the clamp if it is broken.

[Grog12]

While we're on the subject of names what does everyone call the piece of hardware that connects a light to a side arm?

[derekleffew]

While we're on the subject of names what does everyone call the piece of hardware that connects a light to a side arm?

Can't say for sure, but I would think everyone who's anyone would call it a Sliding Tee.

Why do you ask? Do you have some fake, made-up jargon, or regional slang, for it?

-----

... My post was simply an attempt to get a rise out of our resident pedantist.

Did it work?

[Tex]

While we're on the subject of names what does everyone call the piece of hardware that connects a light to a side arm?

That would be a "T".

[sk8rsdad]

tee, tee-slider, or slider, if I'm understanding correctly.

P.S. Am I the only one that finds it funny that a thread about PARs was hijacked, spawning a thread about f-nuts which has now been hijacked into a thread about cheeseboroughs and sidearms?

[DuckJordan]

tee, tee-slider, or slider, if I'm understanding correctly.

P.S. Am I the only one that finds it funny that a thread about PARs was hijacked, spawning a thread about f-nuts which has now been hijacked into a thread about cheeseboroughs and sidearms?

aren't mods supposed to be guiding topics?

Well I've used Cheese boroughs once, and never used a T bar so, I'm not qualified to answer to those.

[dvsDave]

aren't mods supposed to be guiding topics?

Active discussions that grow organically are fine, it's only if they get really off-topic or devolve into a flame war do we try to step in, but if questions are getting answered and everyone's happy, they we are too.

[DuckJordan]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Tex]

Did it work?

It made you ask if it worked...

[Grog12]

Derek I've always called them t clamps. But as always I like to hear what the rest of the world has names them.

Also I find mega clamps and cheesebouroughs a logical through line when we're talking about c clamps.

[derekleffew]

Derek I've always called them t clamps. ...

Well then, you've always been wrong. (Must have gone to public school.)

There's C-clamp, G-clamp, bar clamp, pipe clamp, Anderson clamp, Clancy clamp, gridlock clamp, hook clamp, Jorgensen clamp, trigger clamp, trim clamp, batten clamp, spring clamp, test clamp, amp clamp, hose clamp, and likely others; but no T clamp.

[mstaylor]

I have no idea what to call them either but T clamps seemed as descriptive as any.

[gafftaper]

Okay, I strongly discourage my techs from panning the unit with the set screw. It is too easy to break the head off, it is very easy to pull all the way out and strip it putting it back in, it is easy to create grooves in the shaft which effect focus, sometimes it takes too long to het a wrench on it when you can do a yoke bolt focus with just your hands, eventually the bolt will not tighten fully anymore. There is a laundry list of reason not use it for focus.

Wow what a strange thread.

Esoteric you are a cool guy and I generally agree with you. But, I'm completely stunned by your post. I've never met anyone who says don't use the pan bolt. In fact my experience has been exactly the oposite. I've known T.D.'s who would yell for days if they caught someone twisting on the fixture using the yoke bolt, because it's not safe. A properly tightened yoke bolt should be cranked down so tight that you can't move the fixture. If it's loose enough to move it's loose enough to potentially fail and fall. The pan bolt was designed for a job, use it correctly and it does that job well. I've been 4 years now in a brand new theater with all new gear. I've probably had 50 students hanging lights in that time. Some were great, some were terrible, but all were been properly trained. I haven't had a single broken pan nut or grooved spud shaft in that time. If you carry your wrench on some sort of proper lanyard, you can't leave it far away and you won't drop it so there's no reason that using it will slow you down. If c-clamp is so old the pan nut doesn't hold, it's time to buy a new c-clamp. I think we can all afford a $18 C-clamp every 30 years or so.

I respect you buddy, but have to completely disagree with you on this one.

[Les]

The main time I am guilty of panning with the yoke bolt is when a fixture is overhung, such as on a balcony rail. Otherwise, I really do try to use that pan bolt (not that it always happens). Do I believe yoke bolt panning is unsafe? Well, potentially, especially in the wrong hands (it takes about eight full turns to remove a yoke bolt). More so, it has the ability to put a lot of stress on the hanging bracket and the C-clamp, which may mar things up if care isn't taken.

[derekleffew]

... if they caught someone twisting on the fixture using the yoke bolt, because it's not safe. A properly tightened yoke bolt should be cranked down so tight that you can't move the fixture. If it's loose enough to move it's loose enough to potentially fail and fall. ...

So the minimum 1" long 1/2-13 yoke bolt that's 13 TPI is unsafe? During focus, rotating the yoke a max. of 45° L/R of center (1/8 of a revolution) will somehow cause the bolt to completely unscrew (min. 13 revolutions) and crash to the floor, causing immediate and painful injury/death to all occupants of the venue?

How do you rationalize that using the yoke bolt for pan on a Mega-clamp IS acceptable, but not on a "__me nut"-equipped clamp?
Is it the magic Belleville washer? (For the record, I think every yoke bolt should come with either a Belleville, or split lockwasher, but that's a (slightly) different discussion.)

There are many valid reasons for choosing to use one over the other, but I don't feel safety reasons are applicable criteria in either case. An electrician knowing when and where he/she has to apply a tool, and when not to, can make or break a focus session. It's easy and immediately apparent, to distinguish the beginners from the veterans.

[gafftaper]

So the minimum 1" long 1/2-13 yoke bolt that's 13 TPI is unsafe? During focus, rotating the yoke a max. of 45° L/R of center (1/8 of a revolution) will somehow cause the bolt to completely unscrew (min. 13 revolutions) and crash to the floor, causing immediately and painful injury/death to all occupants of the venue?

How do you rationalize that using the yoke bolt for pan on a Mega-clamp IS acceptable, but not on a "__me nut"-equipped clamp?

There are many valid reasons for choosing to use one over the other, but I don't feel safety reasons are applicable in either case.

My T.D. in college and mentor... who yelled a lot but not at me... taught me that the yoke bolt was designed to be tight. If it was meant to be loose it would have a different design. What exactly? He didn't know because the Mega-clamp didn't exist. The Mega-clamp is designed to work differently. It is safe because it was designed to work that way. True there is a big difference between just slightly loose yoke bolt and yoke bolt so loose the instrument falls and kills all occupants of the venue. However the way some theaters (especially schools) are maintained and operated, I can easily see a scenario where a fixture just gets tugged and tweaked for years and years. Gradually, that yoke bolt could work it's way loose and the fixture (which also probably doesn't have a safety cable in this school theater of doom) falls.

In my book the proper use of yokes and c-clamps is a branch of rigging. Anytime you are rigging you always carefully choose the right tool for the right job because when you cut corners, eventually something bad happens. If using the c-clamp the way it's designed to be used causes you to break off an "f-nut" or groove a spud beyond useable once in a while, that is just the cost of safely doing business.

[derekleffew]

... I can easily see a scenario where a fixture just gets tugged and tweaked for years and years. Gradually, that yoke bolt could work it's way loose and the fixture (which also probably doesn't have a safety cable in this school theater of doom) falls. ...

I guess I just can't envision that scenario, as I assume any rational person (even middle school graduate chausman) has enough sense to tighten the yoke bolt with a wrench if the fixture is loose enough that it won't hold its focus.

So what is the appropriate torque setting for a yoke bolt?

[STEVETERRY]

Well then, you've always been wrong. (Must have gone to public school.)

There's C-clamp, G-clamp, bar clamp, pipe clamp, Anderson clamp, Clancy clamp, gridlock clamp, hook clamp, Jorgensen clamp, trigger clamp, trim clamp, batten clamp, spring clamp, test clamp, amp clamp, hose clamp, and likely others; but no T clamp.

Bravo!

ST

[Les]

First off I have never broken a pan bolt in my 11 years of focusing, if you break one your probably doing it wrong.

I'm just going to bring this up in Esoteric's defense in that the pan bolt could have been stressed before he got to it. I'd imagine that years and years of various overzealous techs wrenching on that bolt, said hardware gets stressed and eventually fails. I once had the head of one literally fall off just by touching it with my wrench. Come to think of it, that may have given me a bad stigma about the things.

To give my 2 cents regarding how tight a yoke bolt is when I'm hanging the lights-- I usually like them tight enough that the fixture won't move if bumped, but not so tight that it can't be 'slightly adjusted' is the fixture is barely off its mark. The only time I really wrench them down is if the fixture is in an area where it is easily accessible (such as on a balcony rail AND/OR if the fixture has a very specific mark and needs to stay put).

[STEVETERRY]

So the minimum 1" long 1/2-13 yoke bolt that's 13 TPI is unsafe? During focus, rotating the yoke a max. of 45° L/R of center (1/8 of a revolution) will somehow cause the bolt to completely unscrew (min. 13 revolutions) and crash to the floor, causing immediate and painful injury/death to all occupants of the venue?

How do you rationalize that using the yoke bolt for pan on a Mega-clamp IS acceptable, but not on a "__me nut"-equipped clamp?
Is it the magic Belleville washer? (For the record, I think every yoke bolt should come with either a Belleville, or split lockwasher, but that's a (slightly) different discussion.)

There are many valid reasons for choosing to use one over the other, but I don't feel safety reasons are applicable criteria in either case. An electrician knowing when and where he/she has to apply a tool, and when not to, can make or break a focus session. It's easy and immediately apparent, to distinguish the beginners from the veterans.

I am somewhat shocked not to have seen the most compelling reasons for not using the setscrew as a focusing tool, never mind breaking the bolt:

1. The cast surface of the c-clamp is irregular and rough.
2. There is considerable tolerance between the OD of the c-clamp shaft and the ID of the casting.
3. The result is completely unpredictable focus when rotating that shaft in that casting and then locking it with the setscrew.
4. I have $1000 in cash for the first person that can produce a professional stagehand who uses the setscrew at all.
5. We use the yoke bolt. Period.

ST

[derekleffew]

... 4. I have $1000 in cash for the first person that can produce a professional stagehand who uses the setscrew at all. ...

Is this the same $1000 that you owe to either sblair, pathway, or some yet-to-be-identified un-indicted co-conspirator?

Sorry, you can only pull that scam once.

[jstandfast]

About this time last year I was building 100 sidearms. I'm fairly certain that both the vendor and the manufacturer refered to that hardware item in dispute as " Tee, Sidearm "

[calkew5]

Generally, if the c-clamp of the fixture I'm focusing has a nice, happy tension washer on the yoke bolt, I don't use the set screw. This has been pointed out before (in a thread about c-clamp maintenance I belive): mega clamps come default with a tension washer. So you can nudge the fixture in the right direction and it usually holds; if it doesn't hold, a slight tighten of the yoke bolt does the trick without screwing up your nice, new focus too bad.

Now if there's not a tension washer, or - god forbid - no washer at all, then the yoke bolt is so loose and stupid and finicky that all I want to do is crank it down hard and hope it stays that way. So then I default to the set screw/f-it nut/whatever. Needless to say I try to get tension washers on everything I can in my particular venue.

Side note: I cringe every time I have to tighten the t-handles on an instrument without these magical washers...usually these instruments are 360(Q)'s featuring a nice broken set of locking dogs.

[derekleffew]

About this time last year I was building 100 sidearms. I'm fairly certain that both the vendor and the manufacturer refered to that hardware item in dispute as " Tee, Sidearm "

From the Altman document http://www.altmanlighting.com/altman...ccessories.pdf :


I've seen at least one other manufacturer of a similar item, but can't think of it so don't know what they call them. The Light Source, of course, and its Mega-Baby Sidearm MDBL Sidearm Slider, Black Anodized .


And BTW, how does one pan a fixture when using an Altman sliding tee? How would your TD mentor have done it, Gafftaper? Gee, there's no pan bolt, and Gafftaper told me using the yoke bolt was unsafe, so I guess I have to rotate the entire sidearm on the vertical pipe to pan the instrument. Oh yes, that's so much easier and safer! /sarcasm off

[techieman33]

There are plenty of occasions where the only option is to use the clamp bolt to adjust the pan of an instrument, but if you have a PAN bolt then it should always be used first.

[Grog12]

4. I have $1000 in cash for the first person that can produce a professional stagehand who uses the setscrew at all.


ST

I'll pm you my address so you know where to send the cashiers check.

[Grog12]

Well then, you've always been wrong. (Must have gone to public school.)

There's C-clamp, G-clamp, bar clamp, pipe clamp, Anderson clamp, Clancy clamp, gridlock clamp, hook clamp, Jorgensen clamp, trigger clamp, trim clamp, batten clamp, spring clamp, test clamp, amp clamp, hose clamp, and likely others; but no T clamp.

Frankly when I googled t clamp I came up with pictures of what we're talking about. So call me wrong all you want but honestly we all hear new terms everyday.

[jglodeklights]

If c-clamp is so old the pan nut doesn't hold, it's time to buy a new c-clamp. I think we can all afford a $18 C-clamp every 30 years or so.

I respect you buddy, but have to completely disagree with you on this one.

$18?!?!?!? You're paying too much! THIS BMI Supply carries Mega, Mega Pan, and standard C Clamps for $10-$11.

As for "T Clamp"....................

THIS is primarily what I get images or links for when I look up a T Clamp on google. Additionally, keep in mind that just because you find it on Google does not mean what you've found is correct, nor does it being local jargon make it correct.

Everyone I have worked with and everywhere I have worked have referred to them as sliding T's/Tees or simply T's/Tees.

[gafftaper]

And BTW, how does one pan a fixture when using an Altman sliding tee? How would your TD mentor have done it, Gafftaper? Gee, there's no pan bolt, and Gafftaper told me using the yoke bolt was unsafe, so I guess I have to rotate the entire sidearm on the vertical pipe to pan the instrument. Oh yes, that's so much easier and safer! /sarcasm off

Yes you have to use the yoke bolt equivalent on a sliding Tee. BUT, you are using that product the way it was designed to be used. ...and I don't believe in rotating the sidearm I believe in rotating the entire vertical pipe.

So am I right or wrong to consider safe C-clamp, yoke usage and safety cabling a fixture to be part of rigging? If I'm wrong why? Is it okay to use any product designed for overhead lifting in a way it was not designed to be used? I love arguing with Derek.

$18?!?!?!? You're paying too much! THIS BMI Supply carries Mega, Mega Pan, and standard C Clamps for $10-$11.

About $18 is the standard price for an ETC clamp online. Which is one of the higher priced C-clamps. Yes there are cheaper options many as low as $10. However, in order to make the point as fair as possible to the other side, I chose a higher end product at a non-package price.