Opinions on permits

[Esoteric]

Okay, so I had a discussion with a church "electrician" today (not licensed, more a handyman who has been an electrician's helper and does some light electrical work for them).

Now we normally error on the side of permitting. We permit our dimmer rack installs, and any electrical work we have to do for the install (new breakers, etc).

Well, this guy has the church convinced that there really isn't a reason to permit installing a 150A breaker and an ETC 12x10A SmartPack Wall Mount rack, along with 12 circuits. They are pressuring me to forgo the permitting and the resulting costs.

I know what I am going to do, but I wanted to get the thoughts of some other contractors on your permitting guidelines.

[Footer]

....This is not even a question..... I don't know why you are bringing it here. We all know the obvious answer. Code is not vague on this. If your opening a panel and making changes, permits are required. Why are you even asking? No one is going to say you don't need a permit.

[Esoteric]

Interestingly enough, I just got off the phone with a Master Electrician here in town (owner of a largish electrical company) and he said he would never permit a job that small.

I am (and had already decided I would) say no permit no job. That is my policy.

But the more people I talk to, the more it seems that is not everyone's policy. Apparently there are largish electrical companies doing work of a certain scale without permitting and I have also talked to two of the largest ETC installers in the Southwest and they have said that they would not ask for a permit for that job.

I am just looking at what code says, versus what people actually do and thought it made for interesting conversation. I thought code was clear on this, but maybe I am missing something.

Going to ask a city inspector friend of mine about it later. I know what the official position will be, but I am wondering what he will say after a couple of beers.

[DuckJordan]

Interestingly enough, I just got off the phone with a Master Electrician here in town (owner of a largish electrical company) and he said he would never permit a job that small.

I am (and had already decided I would) say no permit no job. That is my policy.

But the more people I talk to, the more it seems that is not everyone's policy. Apparently there are largish electrical companies doing work of a certain scale without permitting and I have also talked to two of the largest ETC installers in the Southwest and they have said that they would not ask for a permit for that job.

I am just looking at what code says, versus what people actually do and thought it made for interesting conversation. I thought code was clear on this, but maybe I am missing something.

Going to ask a city inspector friend of mine about it later. I know what the official position will be, but I am wondering what he will say after a couple of beers.

If i'm not mistaken, No permit = no warranty, 150 amps is not a small job. It may be to companies who work on a regular basis of 700+ Amp installs but anything with wiring that is install or actually anything that is a permanent attachment to an existing structure or a brand new build requires a permit. Period.

anyone who tells you differently should immediately be reported to your local authority, permits exist so if you have someone install something that it gets checked over by a professional. Even if the electrician has been licensed for 20+ years and never once failed an inspection its still required.

Codes vary but if i were to open up a wall in my home or business and change even one routing of a wire to a different path it would require inspection. BEFORE drywall went back up.


So stick to your guns... no permit = no work.

[Esoteric]

Yeah, these are guys I respect.

But that is our policy.

Just like we have an engineer examine any rigging we do for safety.

We go by the book.

But yeah, 150A isn't that big of an installation.

[Van]

Sorry, I'm closing this.
There is NO justification for improper procedure in the permitting process. I personally will refuse and refutre any attempt to justify or defend anyones in ability to conform with code. Control Booth does not nor will it condone the promotion of improprer procedurtes such as this. Esoteric you asked for an opion you got it, discussion closed.

[museav]

I think there was some confusion as I believe what Esoteric was looking for was help in presenting an argument as to why a permit was required when others were saying it was not.

The reality is that what has to be permitted or may be exempt as well as the related process are determined and defined at a local level. You probably need to talk to the local permitting agency that has authority for the project and get their interpretation of what does and does not have to be permitted. I doubt the work described would be exempt from permitting or inspection, however there often are some exceptions for things like simply adding receptacles or performing limited low voltage work.

And based on experience I would also guess that the handyman/electrician is pushing not needing permitting as they may need to be a licensed Electrical Contractor in order to pull the related Building or Electrical Permit and thus may not be able to pull a permit if it was required.

[mstaylor]

I think the difference may be the handyman is doing work in his building so doesn't require permits. Esoteric is a contractor coming in from the outside so it does need to be permited. It is a local question that needs to be asked in any case. I know I have run many sub panels at 100 amps and lower. I would get inspections for anything above that, in house or not. In my area the inspectors are private contractors that are required but you have a choice who it is. The funny thing is the guy that gets the most work is the toughest, pickiest inspector but if you pass his then you know it's right.
Esoteric's argument should be that as an outside contractor the only way he can back up his install is to have it inspected. I think this true for anyone that isn't an employee of the facility.

[Edrick]

Here in MA you're required to permit all electrical work (legally), and you cannot work on another persons property unlicensed. So that's why I posted the question before wether it was worth being licensed if you're working in entertainment. Here in MA we couldn't install any type of dimming system or even swap out a light switch (legally) without pulling a permit and being licensed when working for someone else. So I'm a bit confused are you just pulling permits, are you a licensed Electrical Contractor that does this work? I know things are different over in Texas.

[Esoteric]

My original point was actually that you should always ask if a contractor doesn't mention permitting why they don't believe that a job needs permitting. Be a well informed consumer.

After talking to more than half a dozen licensed Master Electricians (including my dad), apparently here local codes are very relaxed about what needs to be permitted and what does not. I did not know this. We will continue to error on the side of permitting, but the local codes here are more relaxed than they are in other parts of the country.

We actually called a local jurisdiction about a job down here installing a 150 amp breaker and a small dimmer rack, and the city inspector told us not to bother. We installed one 3 months ago in a different city that had to have a permit and inspection.

After speaking with a City Inspector that I know, he said what must be permitted vary's wildly by jurisdiction. But always call and ask.

We always error on the side of asking about permitting, but it is a local issue and not a national issue. Check with your local jurisdiction.

I always thought this was a cut and dry issue. But after talking to many respected professionals it appears it is not.

[Esoteric]

Here in MA you're required to permit all electrical work (legally), and you cannot work on another persons property unlicensed. So that's why I posted the question before wether it was worth being licensed if you're working in entertainment. Here in MA we couldn't install any type of dimming system or even swap out a light switch (legally) without pulling a permit and being licensed when working for someone else. So I'm a bit confused are you just pulling permits, are you a licensed Electrical Contractor that does this work? I know things are different over in Texas.

We are a licensed electrical contractor.

You have to be a Master Electrician here in Texas to pull permits, but you can be a Journeyman and be a contractor. We subcontract a Master Electrician to pull permits for us when we have to have them.

We have always pulled permits, but like I said, last week we had a City Inspector tell us not to bother on a job because it was too small.

I also had an experience a year ago of getting green tagged because the inspector had no idea what he was looking at. He asked why we needed a permit, and after examining the conduit just green tagged us.

Then this "electrician" made a fuss of us not needing permits, and so I started asking well respected Master Electricians I knew, and they told me that not every job needed permits (in these locales) and I was shocked. But after sitting with them and talking, I kind of see why now.

We will continue to call the cities that we do work in to check on permitting, but we will no longer automatically pull permits without asking.

[Chris15]

Just a semantics thing, but you err on the side of caution rather than error on the side of caution...

[Esoteric]

Just a semantics thing, but you err on the side of caution rather than error on the side of caution...

Hahaha... You are absolutely correct.

[Footer]

If your local jurisdiction has a building inspector who does not care what you do, fine. However, the rest of the country is not like that. If that guy is OK with getting a call because someone installed a sub panel that burnt down a building that he did not want to inspect because it was to small, fine. Thats his own bag. The code allows for people to do their own work in their own house without pulling a permit, however, it does not allow for employees to do work in their places of work who are not licensed. If someone burns down their own home because they swapped a ground for a hot or overloaded a wire, thats their own thing.

Your working in a building that has public assembly. There is no reason to be jacking around here. A volunteer should not be doing this work, period. It should be done properly by a licensed electrician, as you are doing. If the permit office says go ahead, fine, but the permit should not change anything. The work should still be done as if it was a permitted and inspected job. The reason the handyman does not want the permit is because he does not want the risk of getting called out.

So, the "final thought" of this thread.

-Always call your permitting office to see what you should do regarding permits. Always assume you need a permit unless told otherwise in writing by the permitting office.
-Don't do any infrastructure related electrical work at work unless you are a licensed electrical. (ETCP does not mean you are licensed)
-Permit or not, the work still has to be to code
-We work in venues that hold hundreds to thousands of lives, do you really want your electrical work to threaten those lives?


Thread closed. This thread can not go anywhere else it currently has not gone.