Vintage Lighting - Century-Strand #3413 Fresnel

[rustystuff]

Does anyone out there have a data sheet (or ANY type of documentation) for a Century-Strand #3413 Fresnel? I got one at a local junk shop, and I think all it needs is a lamp. Lens, reflector, and socket look to be in good shape.

Thanks!

[derekleffew]

Well, from the brand name we know it's from 1969-1976.
It's in the Photometrics Handbook, Second Edition, page 59. A basic 2kW, 8" Fresnel (very similar to an Altman 75Q screw-feed 175Q) with mogul prefocus socket.
Spot Beam Spread: 9° beam, 16° field. Flood Beam Spread: 21° beam, 33° field.*
Standard lamp: BVW; Other lamps: BVT (cf=0.39)
Spot focus: mf=0.29, bcp=392,000; Flood focus: mf=1.60,* bcp=68,800.

I'd say it's worth <$50. A new lamp will cost more than that. Does it have asbestos wiring? If you intend to use it, that will need to be removed and replaced.


*Error in book?
Something is amiss with the Flood photometric specifications: A fixture with a 33° field angle cannot have an mf of 1.60.

[rustystuff]

It's already had the asbestos wiring removed and replaced with a 5' long 12/3 cable. It could stand a repaint, too. Based on what you said, I guess I got a pretty good deal: I paid $5 for it....

[derekleffew]

It's already had the asbestos wiring removed and replaced with a 5' long 12/3 cable. ...

You have more work to do. The inner conductors of 12/3 Sxxx (anything) ARE NOT appropriate to withstand the heat inside the fixture. I forget--ask ship (or use the search) for what wire he recommends using.

EDIT: Perhaps this post: Replacement wiring for fixtures and the rest of the thread might help.

[ship]

It's already had the asbestos wiring removed and replaced with a 5' long 12/3 cable. It could stand a repaint, too. Based on what you said, I guess I got a pretty good deal: I paid $5 for it....

Nope, I have a 1989 #3680 8" Strand.
Might be willing to trade - your's as is, mine back to factory spec. but I'm keeping the lens. (Off line). Been looking at the later 80's and early 90's section of the museum lately and thinking I should just trade them off in creating space for older gear. Obviously would have to keep the 360 collection together in having all four lots of it. Stuff like a brand new and never used 1993 Strand #2240 also though are not old enough to need. On the other hand... might just keep what I have and search to see if we have any origional ETC S-4 575w lamp caps left at work. I'm sure Wifie could build me an origional fixture from there to present. Should probably add that if I do retain the early 90's stuff on the fence about that given the 100+ year old gear, and holes filled in between periods and brands I'm acquiring without much space for.


Back on-topic:
The 12/3 cable if type S with letters following it or not is bad - only rated for 90c at best in temperature - you need wiring rated for 200c.

Good price, bad news is the lens will run around $100.00 or more but any brand of lens aka Altman, L&E etc. will fit. (If creative though, could make it into a "Go Fres" in not buying a lens.) See Q of the day.

On the other hand a new 8" Fresnel would cost lots more so with the work you need to do in wiring, painting, probably taking the whole thing apart and re-tapping or surfacing everything, than high temp oiling etc. You are still probably at least breaking even if not better.

Not trying to sell/trade but frank as I work endlesss hours - like eight hours or more per fixture on old gear constantly. Somewhere around thinking... 400 or more older fixtures of all type and brand under the belt at this point within the past three years in telling you it isn't just that simple as a $5.00 fixture that is ready for use.

Have a good look at the lamp socket - if corroded or arched, it don't persay have to be replaced but does need a proper cleaning and resurfacing. Otherwise you will be putting perfectly good lamps into bad socket which will quickly turn them into perfectly bad lamps quick. That along with the fixture cord changed in probably wrong making you suspicious of the proper parts like crimp terminals etc in use and other stuff as done to it.

Good news it's a Century Strand - good quality fixtures and once in good condition should last forever. Search back in Controlbooth to the various notes I have done on Fresnel service calls or re-wiring. Different socket - same techniques. 12 ga. wire would be fine as long as the proper type.

Start a new topic and take lots of step by step pictures for what you do and members can learn and help you along the way if wanted a fun project fixture to work on. Good education for all.

Your fixture might be in the The University of Exeter School of Performance Arts, UK Stand Archive (website) The Strand Archive

I also have some old Strand and Strand/Century & older catalogues that I'm TBA about to get copied to PDF and added to Controlbooth Wikk. Nope, your fixture isn't in the binders - sorry.

[kcraigie]

Here are two of the Strand Century #3413 datasheets, one from 1970 and one from 1977. Looks to be pretty much the same info, but I'll admit that I didn't look incredibly close at either one.

Hope it helps.

[derekleffew]

Wow, thanks Kim!

The second sheet confirms the error/typo in the Photometrics Handbook:

*Error in book?
Something is amiss with the Flood photometric specifications: A fixture with a 33° field angle cannot have an mf of 1.60.

The mf stated as "1.60" should be "0.60".

But the first sheet really shatters my reality. I don't really know where I got that the Century Strand name changed to Strand Century in 1976, but your sheet clearly says "Copyright 1970" and in another place "H-5M-7-74" (1974). Strand - Chronology says

1969: In the USA, Rank takes over Century Lighting which becomes Strand Century.

but we know equipment from that time is branded Century Strand. Kim, or anyone, any thoughts on this?

[kcraigie]

Derek, I was puzzled too! So I went straight to the source, Strand Lighting, to get an answer. Here's what I learned.

1963 CENTURY acquired by Progress Ltg
1964 CENTURY bought by Walter Kidd
1967 STRAND ELECTRIC bought by Rank in UK
1971 CENTURY bought by Rank, Name change to Century Strand
1974 CENTURY STRAND flipped over to STRAND CENTURY
1985 name change to STRAND LIGHTING

There were some internal politics that disagreed how the name should display. People knew the products by the Century name, but Rank wanted Strand to get top billing. It appears Strand won over in 1974.

As I would imagine, it took some time to recast the dies and switch over the metal plates on the equipment, much longer than it would take to update the logo and reprint a datasheet. I'm guessing on this, but it's possible that the datasheets were printed at a later date (hence the newer Strand Century logo), but that they left the "copyright 1970" mark on it for either protective or financial reasons.

So, in essence, Derek, your dates weren't that far off. Considering I have difficulty remembering when I last had the oil changed in my car, I applaud your memory.

[derekleffew]

Thanks again Kim. I've incorporated your info into the timeline at Memory Lighting Control Systems, History - ControlBooth . I'm still a little fuzzy on Progress Manufacturing, Walter Kidde*, and Lighting Corporation of America**, however.

*Interesting research on Walter Kidde & Company and its subsidiaries...

From WAYNE TP. BD. OF ED. v. STRAND CENTURY, INC.*-*Argued January 8, 1980. :

This appeal is taken from a summary judgment in favor of Walter J. Kidde & Co., Inc. (Kidde), defendant-respondent. The claim of liability against Kidde was premised on its alleged ownership and control of a subsidiary, Century Lighting, Inc. (Century), which allegedly participated in the design and manufacture of the dimmer panel and its electrical components.

From Lifetime Brands, Inc. Company Profile, Information, Business Description, History, Background Information on Lifetime Brands, Inc.

In 1966 Farberware [brand of stainless steel cookware] was acquired by Walter Kidde & Co., which sold the company to British conglomerate Hanson PLC in 1987.

From Walter Kidde & Company, Inc. Bond Certificate - Stocklobster.com :

Walter Kidde & Company was incorporated in the 1930’s and became one of the world’s leading suppliers of fire and safety products. The company’s aerospace division, designed the emergency flotation bag for NASA’s Mercury spacecraft.

How very curious that Walter Kidde & Company, owner of Century Lighting AND a fire safety company, would be named in a lawsuit concerning a dimmer fire. History, thou art a tempting mistress.

**From 462 F2d 1265 Hadco Products Inc v. Walter Kidde & Company | OpenJurist :

The appellee originally brought this action against the Lighting Corporation of America, Inc., a Pennsylvania corporation which had operated under the trade name of Progress Manufacturing Company until 1966 and was referred to as such by the District Judge in his opinion. After suit was instituted, the Lighting Corporation of America, Inc. merged with Walter Kidde & Company, Inc., a Delaware corporation, thereafter substituted as defendant-appellant herein.

[rustystuff]

Nope, I have a 1989 #3680 8" Strand.
Might be willing to trade - your's as is, mine back to factory spec. but I'm keeping the lens. (Off line). Been looking at the later 80's and early 90's section of the museum lately and thinking I should just trade them off in creating space for older gear. Obviously would have to keep the 360 collection together in having all four lots of it. Stuff like a brand new and never used 1993 Strand #2240 also though are not old enough to need. On the other hand... might just keep what I have and search to see if we have any origional ETC S-4 575w lamp caps left at work. I'm sure Wifie could build me an origional fixture from there to present. Should probably add that if I do retain the early 90's stuff on the fence about that given the 100+ year old gear, and holes filled in between periods and brands I'm acquiring without much space for.


Back on-topic:
The 12/3 cable if type S with letters following it or not is bad - only rated for 90c at best in temperature - you need wiring rated for 200c.

Good price, bad news is the lens will run around $100.00 or more but any brand of lens aka Altman, L&E etc. will fit. (If creative though, could make it into a "Go Fres" in not buying a lens.) See Q of the day.

On the other hand a new 8" Fresnel would cost lots more so with the work you need to do in wiring, painting, probably taking the whole thing apart and re-tapping or surfacing everything, than high temp oiling etc. You are still probably at least breaking even if not better.

Not trying to sell/trade but frank as I work endlesss hours - like eight hours or more per fixture on old gear constantly. Somewhere around thinking... 400 or more older fixtures of all type and brand under the belt at this point within the past three years in telling you it isn't just that simple as a $5.00 fixture that is ready for use.

Have a good look at the lamp socket - if corroded or arched, it don't persay have to be replaced but does need a proper cleaning and resurfacing. Otherwise you will be putting perfectly good lamps into bad socket which will quickly turn them into perfectly bad lamps quick. That along with the fixture cord changed in probably wrong making you suspicious of the proper parts like crimp terminals etc in use and other stuff as done to it.

Good news it's a Century Strand - good quality fixtures and once in good condition should last forever. Search back in Controlbooth to the various notes I have done on Fresnel service calls or re-wiring. Different socket - same techniques. 12 ga. wire would be fine as long as the proper type.

Start a new topic and take lots of step by step pictures for what you do and members can learn and help you along the way if wanted a fun project fixture to work on. Good education for all.

Your fixture might be in the The University of Exeter School of Performance Arts, UK Stand Archive (website) The Strand Archive

I also have some old Strand and Strand/Century & older catalogues that I'm TBA about to get copied to PDF and added to Controlbooth Wikk. Nope, your fixture isn't in the binders - sorry.

Thanks, Ship - I'll start taking pictures tomorrow. Not sure how long this project will take, since I'll have to squeeze it in between other commitments (work) and whatever SWMBO ("She Who Must Be Obeyed") decrees.... The "before" pictures should be simple enough; the "during" and "after" pix may take a little longer!

[ship]

Thanks, Ship - I'll start taking pictures tomorrow. Not sure how long this project will take, since I'll have to squeeze it in between other commitments (work) and whatever SWMBO ("She Who Must Be Obeyed") decrees.... The "before" pictures should be simple enough; the "during" and "after" pix may take a little longer!

I am very glad to see you taking this Fresnel on for a personal project. Should be a great thing to work on and see brought back to fully working condition. Believe me, I already have a huge backlogged amount of gear to work on. Be looking for that play - seems appropriate for my conditions. No I don't have the option to spend a few $K in our money on antique or investments.

For me, it's not as much about what I collect but what I work on in learning from it. Recently learned after like the third fixture that the LECO brand Leko from the late 50's was using per shutter retainer a slight bend to the shutter so as to end as tensioner. Wonder how many fixtures in the past I just flattened out that bend and thought they were weak in shutter retention later.

Learn stuff every day from old fixtures - literally. Also on these fixtures, that they used a sort of plaster to block light between the body any radial lamp snout casting. Metal pineapple. I used high temp. silicone instead - have the plaster type stuff, just cannot see important enough to mix up given a mis-fit betweeen cast alumium lamp snout and the steel pineapple body casting. Silicone if high temp. works just as well.

But I did learn stuff like technique and history.

[rustystuff]

Here's the promised pictures.

BTW - just got another "project" fixture: Kliegl Bros #3606 Fresnel. It needs a lens & reflector; everything else mechanically sound.

[derekleffew]

Yep, DO NOT use the fixture before replacing the 12/3 SO cord with appropriate 12 AWG heat-resistant wire! Let's not talk about what mineral that whitish pad under the socket might be. Unless you need the extra punch of the 2K BVW ($39-$59), I'd use the 1K BVT ($27-$34).

Fairly definitive dating, from WFTY-DT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

WFTY first signed on November 18, 1973 as WSNL-TV, transmitting on channel 67 out of Patchogue. ... After a year of operation, inadequate revenue meant the cutback to five-minute news briefs several times a day and the department shrunk to just a few employees before the station went bankrupt and signed off for the last time on June 13, 1975.

I wonder how it got from Long Island, NY to Orlando, FL? And kept the owner ID paint all these years?

[rustystuff]

Yep, DO NOT use the fixture before replacing the 12/3 SO cord with appropriate 12 AWG heat-resistant wire! Let's not talk about what mineral that whitish pad under the socket might be. Unless you need the extra punch of the 2K BVW ($39-$59), I'd use the 1K BVT ($27-$34).

Fairly definitive dating, from WFTY-DT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :
I wonder how it got from Long Island, NY to Orlando, FL? And kept the owner ID paint all these years?

I was wondering how it made it down here, too. "A long and winding road", no doubt. When I do the repaint on it, I'm going to leave the markings on there. Side note: When I bought this, the seller tried to make me believe that it came from the set of "Saturday Night Live".
I'll probably stick to the 1K lamp, since I really have no need for the 2K. "Whitish pad"? I don't see no stinkin' pad... (Just kidding, ship....) Since the socket is in good shape, I'm leaving it (and the "pad") where it is.

[ship]

Now Kliegl #3606 I do have a sample or two of.

1) Kliegl #3606 6" Fresnel, c. 1978, - Texture Black: 500w G-9.5 EHD Medium 2Pin Lamp. (Replaced 6.1/4" Lens for fabricated 6" lens in stepping down.) (B.Bean)
1) Kliegl #3606 6" Fresnel, c.1978, - Texture Charcoal Gray: 500w G-9.5 EHD Medium 2Pin Lamp. (B.Ship as provided from ASU collection)

Nice fixture - imagine a Fresnel with a Leko lamp in it. Not an Altman 65Q but that's a bench mark. Not a bad Fresnel and a standardized lamp to boot.

[ship]

I'll probably stick to the 1K lamp, since I really have no need for the 2K. "Whitish pad"? I don't see no stinkin' pad... (Just kidding, ship....) Since the socket is in good shape, I'm leaving it (and the "pad") where it is.

No apologies needed to me in not having any badges...

Socket in good shape - seen that and under that not so good. Recommended full stipping of the fixture and re-wiring of it but each of us is a TD onto ourselves and what you do I don't and what I do you don't. We all come together on a basic sense of safety though as well expressed in ready to do so.


Whitish pad = asbestos pad under the lamp socket, this unless coming from me as ceramic fiber as similar but not asbestos in replacement pad. Lots of asbestos about an old light. Per percentage of what one might see on a water pipe or fire curtain - certaily not as much. On the other hand if even survived the like 20 year exposure - new exposure to it ain't making you super hero in resitant to asbestos - just means you like me been lucky over the years. Next chance exposure to it is your nexxt 20 years later conformation that that last exposer wasnt cancer related to you if you didn't get it.
Asbestos a bad thing in only like 15 to 20 years following exposure to it will you know if you were effected by it.

My Whitish pads are ceramic pads and I replace all asbestos I find.

[Nelson]

Sorry to get off topic, but I just brought an old Kliegl 3606 back into service after some minor repairs. Nice fixture except the beam it a little uneven at full flood because of the holes in the reflector that accept the lamp. As I intend to use it primarily for video lighting, I would like to find barndoors for it. I posted a note in the classifieds a while back if anyone has barndoors that fit the 3606 7" color frame holder.

[ship]

Sorry to get off topic, but I just brought an old Kliegl 3606 back into service after some minor repairs. Nice fixture except the beam it a little uneven at full flood because of the holes in the reflector that accept the lamp. As I intend to use it primarily for video lighting, I would like to find barndoors for it. I posted a note in the classifieds a while back if anyone has barndoors that fit the 3606 7" color frame holder.

Off topic or many topc at a time is part of the fun. What is the measurement your gel frame is will make it easy to figure out what you need to start in fabricating it.

Mostly it's not a difficult project in such a 7" shutter assembly no-longer on the market. Not available and sorry but unless you want to direct copy your own - not something you can buy.


So up to 8" in barn doors, now with them parts how to adjust mounting brackets to mount such a frame. Could be as simple as old gel frame or could get complex. Such a smaller gel frame attached to something else.

That or barn doors are not that difficult to make.

[derekleffew]

Oh, how I do miss the idiosyncrasies of Kliegl fixtures. The colorframe for a 6" Fresnel (which is really a 6 & 3/8" Fresnel, why?) is 7" square, while a 6" ERS uses 6.5" colorframes. So much more fun in the gelroom than those rigid, stick-to-the-standards manufacturers with no imagination or creativity.

/sarcasm off

[Nelson]

I certainly could fabricate barndoors, or better yet, just modify an existing set. However, I don't have an extra barndoor that I want to modify right now!

Talking about standards, you have to give Kliegl credit for using standard EHD/EHG lamps in the 3606! Wouldn't it be nice if all of your fresnels used the same lamp as your ellipsoidals? Although because the socket sits perpendicular to the lens, you can't use GLA-style planar filament lamps in the 3606.

[rustystuff]

No apologies needed to me in not having any badges...

Socket in good shape - seen that and under that not so good. Recommended full stipping of the fixture and re-wiring of it but each of us is a TD onto ourselves and what you do I don't and what I do you don't. We all come together on a basic sense of safety though as well expressed in ready to do so.


Whitish pad = asbestos pad under the lamp socket, this unless coming from me as ceramic fiber as similar but not asbestos in replacement pad. Lots of asbestos about an old light. Per percentage of what one might see on a water pipe or fire curtain - certaily not as much. On the other hand if even survived the like 20 year exposure - new exposure to it ain't making you super hero in resitant to asbestos - just means you like me been lucky over the years. Next chance exposure to it is your nexxt 20 years later conformation that that last exposer wasnt cancer related to you if you didn't get it.
Asbestos a bad thing in only like 15 to 20 years following exposure to it will you know if you were effected by it.

My Whitish pads are ceramic pads and I replace all asbestos I find.

Thanks AGAIN, ship! Tell me more about the ceramic pads you use, i.e. source, cost, etc. I'm guessing the purpose of this pad is heat insulation? Further visual examination shows that this pad seems to be the only asbestos left in this fixture. My plan is to begin the teardown of this 3413 this weekend. (SWMBO permitting, of course!)

[ship]

Thanks AGAIN, ship! Tell me more about the ceramic pads you use, i.e. source, cost, etc. I'm guessing the purpose of this pad is heat insulation? Further visual examination shows that this pad seems to be the only asbestos left in this fixture. My plan is to begin the teardown of this 3413 this weekend. (SWMBO permitting, of course!)

Sorry if too late but stuff like the McMaster Carr #87575K83 is a direct and easy to use replacement as with other thicknesses.

[rustystuff]

Ship - I started the dis-assembly yesterday; pictures to follow. As you probably know, this fixture uses a crank on the back connected to a wormdrive-type screw to move the lamp socket assembly from "spot" to "flood". Do you happen to know how this is held to the wormdrive screw? I don't have an exploded drawing for this, so I'm flying blind at the moment. I'd really hate for some spring-loaded thingy to go flying off someplace.... Thanks again for all your help so far!
(BTW - I'll start a new thread with the dis-assembly pix, as you suggested in an earlier reply.)

[ship]

Nothing gonna explode on you as by now I am sure you have seen.

Very user friendly if you think first than do, than remember the puzzle in assembly. Old lights are fun to work on and figure out, kind of like a puzzle every night - only what pieces did others replace?

[derekleffew]

...Whitish pad = asbestos pad under the lamp socket, this unless coming from me as ceramic fiber as similar but not asbestos in replacement pad. ... My Whitish pads are ceramic pads and I replace all asbestos I find.

From a post to the SML by a Brit:

A fault such as you describe will not necessarily trip either a GFI or
the circuit breaker. I once had a Strand Patt.23 catch fire, over the
audience. Those of you who remember them will say: "What's to catch
fire?"

The post-mortem revealed that it was the paxolin (SRBP) disc under the
base of the P28 lampholder. There was a bad connection, which turned
into a maintained arc. With the bulb in series, it didn't draw enough
current to trip the breaker. It got hot enough to melt the brass
terminal where it occurred.

Paxolin disc? SRBP?

[shiben]

From a post to the SML by a Brit:
Paxolin disc? SRBP?

FR-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you know how to use Google?

[ship]

FR-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you know how to use Google?

Yes, after insulting both wiring to the terminal by way of silicone insulated sleeving over the SF-2 wire, and wrapping the berrel of the terminal with at last three layers of 3M Scotch #69 fiberglass electrical tape, I than use something as my insulator under my lamp socket for it's padding an electricacal conductive materal that I'm insulating against while also shock padding for.

Fully admit that should everything else I so far used to insulate and further to ground - why bother, that I'm using a padding that is conductive for insulator and padding, I just shorted around it by way of padding/insulators. Gee, what didn't I see before and thanks - years of stuff wired old and new now in doing everything else but having a copper foil now to pad the bottom of the lamp socket... never saw that and thanks.

Or more realistically are we on the same subject?


Why bother to ground at that plate anyway in if you are going to make a short, it should be un-grounded. Someone's talk about bad circuit boards in clad with copper that I know nothing about? 87575K83 from McMaster.com is what in a broad sense of materials in use. Such materials is what I am using to replace the asbestos. No copper with it applied to the surface and no idea of the other materials.

Lost in concept of safety concern presented from someone UK in mis-understanding at best. Yea, a short would be bad. I got that like years ago. Sorry if I don't fully understand the caution posted.