good pre-made dmx cable

[Jeffhtg]

I buy my audio cable all the time from audiopile - and have been very very happy with their products.

Is there a lighting vendor comparable to them for dmx cable?

[SteveB]

TMB is very good, I get mine from Production Advantage.

They have prices on the web, Quality Theatrical Supplies and Equipment

BMI is also good.

[Jeffhtg]

TMB is very good, I get mine from Production Advantage.

They have prices on the web, Quality Theatrical Supplies and Equipment

BMI is also good.

$33 for a 25' DMX cable with gold cable / neutrik ends

compared to EWI's audio cable which is 30ft for $21.45 (they dont make a 25')

The audio cable is more expensive to make.. so the prices are not very good for that link.. any other shops that may have better pricing on similar quality products?

[SteveB]

$33 for a 25' DMX cable with gold cable / neutrik ends

compared to EWI's audio cable which is 30ft for $21.45 (they dont make a 25')

The audio cable is more expensive to make.. so the prices are not very good for that link.. any other shops that may have better pricing on similar quality products?

DMX cable is not audio cable, so comparing prices is pointless. Well made DMX cable should be Belden 9729 or equal (twisted pair), which would be more expensive. Plus the manufacture is using a 5 pin XLR, which costs more, plus the labor to solder the extra (un-used currently) pins.

As well, ProAdv is about as inexpensive and reliable as any of the on-line vendors, though Full Compass is good as well.

[derekleffew]

$33 for a 25' DMX cable with gold cable / neutrik ends

compared to EWI's audio cable which is 30ft for $21.45 (they dont make a 25')

The audio cable is more expensive to make.. so the prices are not very good for that link.. any other shops that may have better pricing on similar quality products?

$15.75/ea from cheaplights.com :

137-DMX25MP-L
25 foot MAXPRO, Pro Grade, Heavy Duty DMX Cable. Male 3 pin XLR to female 3 pin XLR. These are top of the line DMX cables! A true 22 gauge cable that is wound 5 times tighter than standard cable and is 120 ohms. You can pay more, but you can't get a better working DMX cable!

[chausman]

$15.75/ea from cheaplights.com :

I can't tell...is this sarcasm from Derek? Or an actual suggestion?

[SteveB]

$15.75/ea from cheaplights.com :

Don't forget the 3 to 5 and 5 to 3 pin adapters, around $20 ea.

[derekleffew]

I can't tell...is this sarcasm from Derek? Or an actual suggestion?

As the OP seems more concerned about price than quality, "Facts" about DMX .

TMB's ProPlex and Tour-Plex is the absolute best, but I've heard (never used) Elation Accu-cable is acceptable for light-duty applications.

[Jeffhtg]

As the OP seems more concerned about price than quality, "Facts" about DMX .

TMB's ProPlex and Tour-Plex is the absolute best, but I've heard (never used) Elation Accu-cable is acceptable for light-duty applications.

Sorry I should have specified 3 pin - I know thats not "pro"

But comparing it to real world pro DMX - well it should be cheaper shouldn't it? Is there an ansi standard for 3 conductor dmx or does it only exist for 5 pin?

[DuckJordan]

The standard only applies to the 5 pin although many manufactures use the same pinouts 1-3 for their 3 pin "dmx" lines.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[avkid]

Don't forget the 3 to 5 and 5 to 3 pin adapters, around $20 ea.

Or $5 if you know where to look.
DMX_5F3M-5M3F

[SteveB]

Or $5 if you know where to look.
DMX_5F3M-5M3F

Poor choice though in many applications due to the added strain the connector places on a chassis mounted connector. Thus the cable versions are a better choice and more widely used, but cost more.

[mstaylor]

Sorry I should have specified 3 pin - I know thats not "pro"

But comparing it to real world pro DMX - well it should be cheaper shouldn't it? Is there an ansi standard for 3 conductor dmx or does it only exist for 5 pin?

No, there is nothing about three pin cables. What you are looking for is cable that complies with the standard. Most people that use three pin XLR still use 5 wire cable. There is a twist and resistance requirement that 5 wire meets easily.
The pin has become common be cause the manufacturers started using them to control costs. There is many threads about the standards, how they have become bastardized, and how it is actually most costly to the end user.

[Jeffhtg]

No, there is nothing about three pin cables. What you are looking for is cable that complies with the standard. Most people that use three pin XLR still use 5 wire cable. There is a twist and resistance requirement that 5 wire meets easily.
The pin has become common be cause the manufacturers started using them to control costs. There is many threads about the standards, how they have become bastardized, and how it is actually most costly to the end user.

But it is a 2 pair twist correct? In 5 Pin DMX is the Common paired with something else or is it a shield? Wouldn't the appropriate Belden twist cable for the +/- using EIA-485 standard be a "correct" non standard way of using the bastardized 3 pin configuration? In both audio and DMX the common does not have to be a twisted pair correct? Does this not make sense? And then does anyone make this

[JD]

But it is a 2 pair twist correct? In 5 Pin DMX is the Common paired with something else or is it a shield? Wouldn't the appropriate Belden twist cable for the +/- using EIA-485 standard be a "correct" non standard way of using the bastardized 3 pin configuration? In both audio and DMX the common does not have to be a twisted pair correct? Does this not make sense? And then does anyone make this

To put it simply, DMX512 is a two pair cable with 5 pin connectors, anything else is not the DXM standard.

That being said, the second pair never got assigned. There are some that use it for non-standard purposes, but true DMX152 makes no use of it.

So, if your equipment will be in a stand alone environment, will using 3 pin connectors and single pair cable cause you any problems? No. As long as the cable is the correct impedance (Data 100 to 120 ohms) as compared to mic cable, you will not have any problems.

Pros:
Much cheaper

Cons:
Mixing equipment will require adapters.
Easy to mix up lighting and sound cables by mistake.
Thinner cable (single pair) may not be as durable.

Caution: If you are using two pair cable with 3 pin connectors DO NOT parallel anything! (If you do, you are creating a tuned RF tank circuit that may bite you in the you-know-where some day!) Just cut off the second pair. (Connecting both drain wires to pin one is ok.)

The big factors in using single pair cable is to use the right impedance cable and one that is durable enough. The circuit only cares about the impedance. For example, in metal conduit runs, Cat5 cable works great.

[JohnD]

From lurking at several other (mostly audio) forums some info.
For budget when 3 pin will do, Accu-cable/ADJ/Elation is not too bad. Cable is very flexible and the connectors are satin black. The quality of the connectors is in my opinion not that great, Neutriks they're not. They even include a velcro strap. Even Amazon sells them.
Some people also like the Platinums from this company:
NLFX*PSDMX3*::*Platinum*Series*::*NLFX*Professiona l*-*Audio,*Lighting,*Video,*Intercom
Prices aren't too bad and they have real Neutriks. I did get a laugh about their description:
" Our premium DMX cable features superior signal transmission while
meeting the USITT specifications for cable properties. Made in USA
with Neutrik connectors. Lifetime guarantee!"

[derekleffew]

...Most people that use three pin XLR still use 5 wire cable. ...

I doubt this, since there's no benefit whatsoever.

...Caution: If you are using two pair cable with 3 pin connectors DO NOT parallel anything! ... Just cut off the second pair. (Connecting both drain wires to pin one is ok.) ...

BOTH drain wires? Individually shielded pairs?

[MNicolai]

I doubt this, since there's no benefit whatsoever.

Depending on how you use your cables, there can be a slight benefit. Your DMX snake from FOH to stage can have half as many couple-hundred foot DMX cables if you use splitters at the front and back end of each run to put two universes of DMX into a single cable and divide them into separate cables at the end of the run.

I've only seen this done a couple times.

[derekleffew]

Depending on how you use your cables, there can be a slight benefit. Your DMX snake from FOH to stage can have half as many couple-hundred foot DMX cables if you use splitters at the front and back end of each run to put two universes of DMX into a single cable and divide them into separate cables at the end of the run.

How is this accomplished using (only) XLR3s? Which is what the discussion was about--using 5-conductor cable with 3-pin XLRs. I thought the two universe over one cable issue was settled here. I suppose though, if one allows the breaking of one rule (XLR3), one can't get too consternipated about another (two universes).

I've only seen this done a couple times.

And I've never seen it done, except for break-out adapters on the 5-pin output(s) of some Avolites consoles.

[JD]

BOTH drain wires? Individually shielded pairs?

If you cut your cable apart, it better have TWO SEPARATE PAIRS or it really isn't DMX512.

I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield. In the computer world, we would call that "dumpster fill." Lucky for the manufacturer, DMX is a hearty signal that is unidirectional, and in most cases only two of the conductors are used. The cable works fine. But....... IT'S NOT DMX! (Despite what is printed on the rubber!)

Proper Construction: http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/c...ml#DMX512CABLE

[Edrick]

What's the best belden to use for three pin dmx

[derekleffew]

If you cut your cable apart, it better have TWO SEPARATE PAIRS or it really isn't DMX512. The Belden cable has two individually shielded pairs with separate drain wires.
... The cable works fine. But....... IT'S NOT DMX! (Despite what is printed on the rubber!)

Look up the specs for Belden 9842, accepted by many/most as the defacto industry standard.
Or Belden 9729 (or equivalent, as specified by ETC). Also, see attached:

What's the best belden to use for three pin dmx

Depends on the intended use. In conduit or out? Plenum or non-plenum? Next to hot lights? As an FOH snake?

[STEVETERRY]

If you cut your cable apart, it better have TWO SEPARATE PAIRS or it really isn't DMX512.

I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield. In the computer world, we would call that "dumpster fill." Lucky for the manufacturer, DMX is a hearty signal that is unidirectional, and in most cases only two of the conductors are used. The cable works fine. But....... IT'S NOT DMX! (Despite what is printed on the rubber!)

Proper Construction: West Penn Wire Permanent Installation Bulk Cable

The E1.11 standard does not require a separate shield for each pair. There would be no advantage to a separate shield.

ST

[JD]

Look up the specs for Belden 9842, accepted by many/most as the defacto industry standard. Or Belden 9729 (or equivalent, as specified by ETC). Also, see attached:

I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make it right! Cable manufacturers, even Belden, have been getting away with murder! No surprise. Two data lines = Two individual twisted pairs, not four conductors twisted together!

[JD]

The E1.11 standard does not require a separate shield for each pair. There would be no advantage to a separate shield.
ST

We are not talking about the shield in this case! Steve, there is a LOT of DMX cable out there that have the four conductors twisted together, NOT as two separate pairs.

[STEVETERRY]

I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make it right! Cable manufacturers, even Belden, have been getting away with murder! No surprise. Two data lines = Two individual twisted pairs, not four conductors twisted together!

Correct. But two twisted pairs under one shield is fine, and not the same as four wires "twisted together" under one shield. There is no need for individual shields.

ST

[JD]

Correct. But two twisted pairs under one shield is fine, and not the same as four wires "twisted together" under one shield. There is no need for individual shields.

ST

Yes, agreed, although I would not use it. My own opinion. But, my original statement was:

"I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield."

There are several major vendor that are selling DMX that is indeed four wires twisted together as one pair.

[STEVETERRY]

Yes, agreed, although I would not use it. My own opinion. But, my original statement was:

"I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield."

There are several major vendor that are selling DMX that is indeed four wires twisted together as one pair.

JD--

I did not know that. It would be helpful if we could identify those vendors and part numbers to warn consumers ways from such a design of cable--which is clearly bogus for DMX-512 applications and will not work reliably.

EIA-485 has a twisted pair requirement. Not four wires twisted together, unless they are two twisted pairs, twisted together, which would be fine for DMX512.

ST

[JD]

I recall this discussion from about 6 months back on this site, but I do not remember the thread title. Derek was part of the discussion so he may recall it. In buying bulk cable it is always good to get a sample first.

EDIT:
Wow, maybe more like two years ago! See post # 19:
DMX Help!/Wire colors

I can confirm that the Gepco DLC224 does in fact not have 2 individual pairs. The 4 insulated conductors have a common twist. Needless to say, I was not thrilled to discover this, but luckily I only bought 80ft. We bought some Horizon/Rapco DMX cable at my church that does have 2 individual twisted pairs.

Some quick questionable Google finds:

http://www.chinesedepartmentstore.co...oducts_id/6595

http://www.cmpstore.com/DMX-4C-22GAS...t-CA-DMX4C.htm

[Edrick]

Depends on the intended use. In conduit or out? Plenum or non-plenum? Next to hot lights? As an FOH snake?

Live events, daisy chaining fixtures. For use along the edge of a room, temp setup.

[derekleffew]

Yes, JD, but I am in agreement with post #20 of the same thread:

I am not sure why for DMX that would be an issue, since you are only using one pair and the shield. The extra two wires are really not used This probably means that there is no problem with selecting any 2 of the 4 wires for use.

Unless/until there's widespread adoption and agreement as to the use of the second pair (which there never will be, as the standard is nearing the end of its lifecycle), I'm not going to worry about it.
Furthermore,

So once again getting assistance from Milton [Davis, of Doug Fleenor Design] here is the response:

...Until you get into running significant distances (over 500 feet), the twisted pairs or 4 wires twisted probably won't matter much.

Regards,
Milton Davis, Engineer, ETCP-CEE-RT

-----
Sorry for the confusion in posts 17-29 above. We're discussing at least three types of cable constructions:

1. 4 conductor + shield
2. 2 pair, individually twisted, + 1 overall shield
3. 2 individually, twisted, shielded pairs (2 shields)

IMHO, for current usage, any of the above will be just fine wired to XLR5s for DMX512 distribution, but #2 is the most preferable.

In most cases. IF I were building my own fixture jumpers, I'd use an appropriate (100-120Ω, 20-22g, heavy Black jacket, braided shield, but still flexible/coilable, ...) single pair + shield cable.

And even though this has little/nothing relevant, I did update the wiki entry star quad.

[JD]

Just came across this great video from Doug Fleenor on 1 pair vs 2 pair, 5 pin vs 3 pin, and when cat5 is ok to use. He also covers length limits and some other things.

He makes the case for two pair use in large production houses and then ... Surprise! Indicates his own opinion is that it is a waste of money. Pretty funny video from Dr. DMX!


Informational Video: DMX512 Cable - Part Two - YouTube

Yes, JD, but I am in agreement with post #20 of the same thread:

Unless/until there's widespread adoption and agreement as to the use of the second pair (which there never will be, as the standard is nearing the end of its lifecycle), I'm not going to worry about it.

Well, as I said earlier: "DMX is a hearty signal that is unidirectional, and in most cases only two of the conductors are used. The cable works fine."


but.... Then there are some of us that like to pop a second universe on the second pair, or even a com line....
Oh! what a tangled web we weave!

[derekleffew]

What's the best belden to use for three pin dmx

Live events, daisy chaining fixtures. For use along the edge of a room, temp setup.

Belden 9841, but I don't like that it's only 24 ga. (not for capacity, but for durability) for portable use. I'd look for a cable for EIA RS-485 application with all of the criteria above: "(100-120Ω, 20-22g, heavy Black jacket, braided shield, but still flexible/coilable, ...) single pair + shield cable."
Or, just bite the bullet and buy TMB ProPlex PC244T.
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten." --Benjamin Franklin

[Jeffhtg]

Belden 9841, but I don't like that it's only 24 ga. (not for capacity, but for durability) for portable use. I'd look for a cable for EIA RS-485 application with all of the criteria above: "(100-120Ω, 20-22g, heavy Black jacket, braided shield, but still flexible/coilable, ...) single pair + shield cable."
Or, just bite the bullet and buy TMB ProPlex PC244T.
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten." --Benjamin Franklin

So I really don't care about the opinions here.. 4 pair twisted vs 2 pair pairs twisted... all i'm really looking for is good quality inexpensive 3 pin dmx cable. back to topic - does anyone have any leads?

[derekleffew]

...TMB's ProPlex and Tour-Plex is the absolute best, but I've heard (never used) Elation Accu-cable is acceptable for light-duty applications.

https://www.google.com/search?q=elat...w=1228&bih=671

[mstaylor]

Any that I build, I use five pin connectors. If I do make some for three pin equipment I use two pair cable. I have never tried to find single pair cable that is 120 ohm.

[len]

Best I've found is custom made by Bill at Entertainment Systems. About the same price as pre-made stuff, but it comes in whatever length you need. I think he offers a lifetime replacement guarantee on it, but check with him.

Every one he made for me is still perfect.

I've also bot American DJ stuff, and for the price it's fine. Cheap enough to be disposable.

[SteveB]

So I really don't care about the opinions here.. 4 pair twisted vs 2 pair pairs twisted... all i'm really looking for is good quality inexpensive 3 pin dmx cable. back to topic - does anyone have any leads?

Well Jeff, all I could think of is there's really no such thing as "3 pin DMX cable" but if you actually paid attention to some of the posts by some of top people in the industry, you'd know that.

Sorry to have wasted your time and as BTW, welcome to Control Booth.

[65535]

So I really don't care about the opinions here.. 4 pair twisted vs 2 pair pairs twisted... all i'm really looking for is good quality inexpensive 3 pin dmx cable. back to topic - does anyone have any leads?

It's simple then. No cable for you.

As many others have said there is no such thing as "good quality inexpensive 3 pin DMX."

You have inexpensive DMX, good quality DMX, and XLR3 terminated data cable which does not fit under any standards and is NOT DMX cable.

Now if you need to send DMX over a cable with XLR3 termination.

NSI / Leviton DMX 3-Pin Cable - 25' DMX3P402025 B&H Photo Video

YMMV. The product description states not suitable for digital control.

Consider buying proper DMX cable and adapting each side. I wouldn't want any XLR3 terminated DMX around my space.

[sblair]

I get the very rare opportunity to quasi-correct Steve Terry on something

E1.11 actually says nothing about cabling. All cabling requirements were moved to seperate documents. Those are E1.27-1 for Portable Cables and E1.27-2 for Permanently Installed Cables. Available for purchase from: ESTA Foundation - Publications - About Publications, Browse & Purchase

What E1.11 does specify are connector types that are allowed. The use of the 3-pin XLR is specifically DISALLOWED. End of discussion.

Here is what E1.27-1 says on the cable construction:

Portable DMX512 cables shall use twisted pair conductors. Conductors shall be of stranded construction. The raw cable used for a DMX512 cable assembly shall be declared by its manufacturer as suitable for use with EIA-422/EIA-485/EIA-485-A systems. Shielding shall be on individual pairs or overall shielding of pairs, or both. The portable cable itself shall be flexible and rugged enough for the repeated coiling and uncoiling to which it will be subjected.

ANSI E1.27-1 - 2006 (R2011) also states that it is allowed to build portable cables that contain only the primary data pair provided they are marked with "Single pair" or "1-pair" and also marked with a violet band at least 1/2" wide within 2 inches of this marking. Of course, you still can NOT use the 3-pin XLR. You MUST use the 5-pin XLR (for what I hope are obvious reasons!)

So, that's the end of what the standards say. In Europe it is very common to build single pair portable cables which is why this is included in the standard. In the US most portable cables are wired for all 5 pins. Many(most?) permanent installs do not have all 5 pins wired. Back in my day at ETC, standard procedure was NOT to connect pins 4/5 in the wall plates in installs. I do not know what current practice on their installs is.

In reality, aside from a few legacy proprietary uses pins 4/5 are not being used for anything. They are generally a landmine of incompatabilities for the few that tried using them.

In regards to shielding, I believe portable cables should all be shielded, but according to Steve Lampen from Belden at the speeds we are running for DMX512, the shielding provides relatively little noise immunity compared to the pair twisting, which is what provides the most immunity. This is another reason it is important to use proper data cables and not audio cables. Audio cables may be well shielded, but they don't have the proper twisting to provide good noise immunity for DMX512 (not to mention the high capacitance issue!).