Stage Pin Quad Box

[DMXpro]

Hi all,
I am making a stage pin quad box, but I'd like help before I start. Since all in/out connections are stage pin and therefore 20A, I know 12/3 SO or SOOW cable is required. Other than that, I need a stage pin plug and four female surface-mount receptacles. Are there plates that will accept stage pin sockets AND mount to a 2-gang box? Are they out there/legal? To boot, I have just read that metal quad boxes are a no-no for portable distros. (This makes no sense to me, but I'm not going to raise a stink about it.) Thus, what is a good, inexpensive solution? (And, where would I buy female stage pin outlets?)

Thanks.
PS-- An alternative option is to have one "half" Edison duplex (20A) and the other half stage pin.

[MPowers]

Don't make it, buy one from LEX.
PowerHOUSE™ Portable Distribution Boxes: 20 Amp "Break Out Box" with Tail Input to Edison and Stage Pin Receptacles | Lex Products

Before you actually build any of these yourself, do a bit more research on code and "why" the code, for portable (can be used outdoors) equipment. Also check out codes for proper sizing of feed cable for distro boxes, it will help you understand the whys and wherefores of the size requirements.

Metal is a No-Go for case material in outdoor use as it is a conductor. Get it wet (it does occasionally RAIN out doors) it can conduct a current from any internal lugs or contacts to the metal case, either shorting out or making the case lethally charged. High impact plastic of many various compositions is the answer.

Flush mount stage pin receptacles are available from any source that sells stage pin plugs and bodies. Plates can be obtained from companies like LEX but for shop built units such as you are describing and thinking of building, plates are custom made in the builders ( your shop) shop. High impact plastic can be easily machined with all cutting, drilling and milling tools including table saw, jig saw, band saw, drill (hand drill and drill press) routers, etc.

[DrPinto]

Am I understanding you correctly? You need 4 instruments with stage pin plugs that draw less than 20 amps total on the same circuit?

I would use a two-fer or three-fer instead.

[DMXpro]

four 575W instruments on a single 2.4kW dimmer, if the 1st electric is only twofered.

[DMXpro]

Well, I guess twofering each twofer would work, then.

[DMXpro]

Don't make it, buy one from LEX.
PowerHOUSE™ Portable Distribution Boxes: 20 Amp "Break Out Box" with Tail Input to Edison and Stage Pin Receptacles | Lex Products

Metal is a No-Go for case material in outdoor use as it is a conductor. Get it wet (it does occasionally RAIN out doors) it can conduct a current from any internal lugs or contacts to the metal case, either shorting out or making the case lethally charged. High impact plastic of many various compositions is the answer.

I wouldn't be using it outdoors, but that's a good point and thus I won't argue it. As for the LEX products, I need something that's more of a four-fer and less of pipe-mounted distro. I have no way to use socapex, unfortunately.

[DrPinto]

That's 2300 watts/115 volts = 20 amp draw on a 20 amp rated wire and plugs. There's no wiggle room there.

[DrPinto]

I think I found what you're looking for, only in a 3 circuit setup:

Altman 3 Circuit Plug Box with Pipe Clamps and Stage Pin Plugs | eBay

Personally, I wouldn't go over three 575 watt instruments or 15 amps on a 20 amp circuit just to be safe.

A 3-fer would do the same thing.

[DMXpro]

Yes, that's basically what I need, but with chassis-mount connectors rather than cable-mount. I drew a picture in MS paint (excuse my drawing "skills") of what i am picturing in my head with the 1/2 and 1/2 idea. Essentially, it's an "ambiguous twofer": I can use it as a stage pin twofer or an Edison twofer, depending on the present situation. It can be loaded for 20A total, (like a four-fer) but I only need it to act as a twofer.

[DMXpro]

Don't make it, buy one from LEX.
PowerHOUSE™ Portable Distribution Boxes: 20 Amp "Break Out Box" with Tail Input to Edison and Stage Pin Receptacles | Lex Products

Before you actually build any of these yourself, do a bit more research on code and "why" the code, for portable (can be used outdoors) equipment. Also check out codes for proper sizing of feed cable for distro boxes, it will help you understand the whys and wherefores of the size requirements.


Metal is a No-Go for case material in outdoor use as it is a conductor. Get it wet (it does occasionally RAIN out doors) it can conduct a current from any internal lugs or contacts to the metal case, either shorting out or making the case lethally charged. High impact plastic of many various compositions is the answer.

Flush mount stage pin receptacles are available from any source that sells stage pin plugs and bodies. Plates can be obtained from companies like LEX but for shop built units such as you are describing and thinking of building, plates are custom made in the builders ( your shop) shop. High impact plastic can be easily machined with all cutting, drilling and milling tools including table saw, jig saw, band saw, drill (hand drill and drill press) routers, etc.

Thank you. I figured I could always cut the plates of impact plastic to fit the 2P&G receptacles, but I just wanted to know if that was okay to do (ie, legal).

[gafftapegreenia]

http://www.unionconnector.com/pdf/Pi...r-Brochure.pdf

Item #G3255. It's a cable mount Stagepin 3-fer block.

The problem with metal J boxes is the knockouts can get punched in thus exposing the connections within. Lots of equipment uses metal bodies and boxes, properly grounded of course, just WITHOUT easily punched in knock outs.

[DMXpro]

http://www.unionconnector.com/pdf/Pi...r-Brochure.pdf

Item #G3255. It's a cable mount Stagepin 3-fer block.

The problem with metal J boxes is the knockouts can get punched in thus exposing the connections within. Lots of equipment uses metal bodies and boxes, properly grounded of course, just WITHOUT easily punched in knock outs.

So essentially, it's a stage pin cube tap?

[derekleffew]

... I need something that's more of a four-fer and less of pipe-mounted distro. ...

Sounds like any quad box wouldn't work so well. You can build a "four-fer" using 12/3 SJO cable. Don't try to stick four cables in the male; use only two and then do the same at two of the females.

I'll try some bad ASCII art:

F F M F F
_V_V_V_V
The V's are 18" to 5' lengths of 12/3 SJO cable

The male can be anywhere in the chain, although if it's at one end, the device may be mistaken for an ACL Harness. I once built four of these in custom lengths for a 4-color, 16-unit wash. Sure the same could be accomplished using three two-fer s, but that's a lot of extra connections, and jumper s will probably be needed also.

I can see these four (or more)-fers becoming more useful as low current draw LED units (those without power pass-thru) become prevalent.

Some NEC code issues to consider:
Strain relief on connectors is not listed, by NRTL for more than one cable.
If the device qualifies as an adapter or two-fer, limited in length to 1m (each leg).
If considered a break-out, maximum length from male to farthest female is 6m.

-----

...Personally, I wouldn't go over three 575 watt instruments or 15 amps on a 20 amp circuit just to be safe.

Is it acceptable to put 4x S4s on a dimmer?

[JChenault]

I'm missing something here.

Why do you want to make a distribution box instead of an appropriate number of Two-fer / Three-fers?

It would seem to me that making / purchasing three two-fer's - or a three-fer and a two-fer would be simpler, easier, and cheaper than making a custom box. It is not clear to me what a box is giving you.

As to the comment re four 575 watt instruments taking 20 amps. Note that this depends on which lamp you have in them. If the lamp is a 115 volt lamp this is correct, and if your mains voltage is greater than that, my understanding is that you could pull too many amps. On the other hand, if the lamp is a 120 volt lamp, you should have no problem ( especially if the mains voltage, is 115 volts).

[DMXpro]

I'm missing something here.

Why do you want to make a distribution box instead of an appropriate number of Two-fer / Three-fers?

It would seem to me that making / purchasing three two-fer's - or a three-fer and a two-fer would be simpler, easier, and cheaper than making a custom box. It is not clear to me what a box is giving you.

As to the comment re four 575 watt instruments taking 20 amps. Note that this depends on which lamp you have in them. If the lamp is a 115 volt lamp this is correct, and if your mains voltage is greater than that, my understanding is that you could pull too many amps. On the other hand, if the lamp is a 120 volt lamp, you should have no problem ( especially if the mains voltage, is 115 volts).

Please see the drawing above, it explains what I am trying to say a little better. Also, all lamps are 120V, so I figured I would be fine.

[gafftapegreenia]

I understand the desire to have such a box, as many new theatres are built with such boxes in the wings and floor pockets. However wouldn't a few adapters be far cheaper than a custom box? Anyway, http://www.oawindsor.com/ may already have the parts you need to build such a box. Perhaps a twofer made with a male Stagepin and two female Edisons would suite your needs?

Certainly one of the things that's always irked me is "wasting" a twofer to make a fourfer. There are seldom enough twofers to begin with let alone use in such a fashion.

And Derek, my college had some twofers and threefers built in that style (out of three individual rubbed covered wires, instead of cable. I wasn't ever able to see the code on them as it had rubbed off long ago) I found the twofers especially useful for cabling cyc lights. Certainly easier and much cleaner to tie up than the molded Y style.

[chausman]

Please see the drawing above, it explains what I am trying to say a little better. Also, all lamps are 120V, so I figured I would be fine.

Even then, can't you just use the correctly rated connector of your choice, in place of a 2P&G stagepin?

[DMXpro]

I understand the desire to have such a box, as many new theatres are built with such boxes in the wings and floor pockets. However wouldn't a few adapters be far cheaper than a custom box? Anyway, O.A. Windsor may already have the parts you need to build such a box.

Not if I already have most of the parts.

[DMXpro]

Even then, can't you just use the correctly rated connector of your choice, in place of a 2P&G stagepin?

Yes, but I'd like to have the option if I am using instruments fitted with stage pin. Or did you mean the male end?

[chausman]

Yes, but I'd like to have the option if I am using instruments fitted with stage pin. Or did you mean the male end?

I meant, do something like what Derek suggested, but use NEMA 5-20 on two ends, and Stagepin on the other two.

[DMXpro]

I meant, do something like what Derek suggested, but use NEMA 5-20 on two ends, and Stagepin on the other two.

Sure, I could do that. I guess I want a box because it's a little more convenient if I am running practicals that have edison plugs; if I made a four-fer with two different female connectors, I'd have an Edison and two stagepins getting in the way (like physically obtrusive) if I'm running just one practical off the box.

[derekleffew]

...(out of three individual rubbed covered wires, instead of cable. I wasn't ever able to see the code on them as it had rubbed off long ago) ...

I built a number of them myself, to replace asbestos two-fer s. Would not fly today, as NEC prohibits single conductor cable smaller than AWG #2.

I didn't braid mine, but a number of shops did.

Used Lighting - Used Stage & Theatrical Lighting Equipment, LED Lighting, Trussing

The wire was a #12 high-heat, double-insulated, silicone or PTFE sheathed. I thought it better than tufer s made of less insulated wires in a fiberglass sheath.

[JChenault]

Sure, I could do that. I guess I want a box because it's a little more convenient if I am running practicals that have edison plugs; if I made a four-fer with two different female connectors, I'd have an Edison and two stagepins getting in the way (like physically obtrusive) if I'm running just one practical off the box.

Getting back to my earlier question - why a box instead of twofers and adapters?

(And time for my slight off topic rant). In a prior life, I helped software engineers design software. The most common problem I saw was when a user presented a solution instead of clearly defining the problem they were trying to solve. Sometimes their solution was correct, but frequently if you took the time to dig a litter deeper you found a totally different solution that better solved the need.

It feels to me like this may be happening here.

If what you are trying to do is to power multiple fixtures from a single outlet - I would argue that two-fers or three-fers are simpler and easier. Plugs into a box on a pipe are a pain in that there is no real good way to tie down the box without it flopping around. The plugs are apt to get pulled out by mistake, and there is no easy way to tape the connection like there is with a twofer. You have more flexibility in using them as you can split them up as needed.

If you are trying to make it easy to power edison practicals - build some adapters. That way you can plug in an edison practical on any circuit - not just the one where you have put the box.

For my two cents - the only time a box is better would be if you plan to permanently fasten it to a pipe or a wall. In that case we need to be talking about how you see that connection working. Even if you were to try and do that, I would suggest you think about using pigtails from the box instead of flush mounted receptacles. A pigtail is just easier to work with (IMHO)

I hope you don't feel like I am raining on the parade here. I just want to make sure that you end up with something that solves the need, and I am not sure what that need is yet. If you could take a moment to explain what problem you are trying to solve, without suggesting a solution - you might find a much simpler path.

[DMXpro]

Getting back to my earlier question - why a box instead of twofers and adapters?

(And time for my slight off topic rant). In a prior life, I helped software engineers design software. The most common problem I saw was when a user presented a solution instead of clearly defining the problem they were trying to solve. Sometimes their solution was correct, but frequently if you took the time to dig a litter deeper you found a totally different solution that better solved the need.

It feels to me like this may be happening here.

If what you are trying to do is to power multiple fixtures from a single outlet - I would argue that two-fers or three-fers are simpler and easier. Plugs into a box on a pipe are a pain in that there is no real good way to tie down the box without it flopping around. The plugs are apt to get pulled out by mistake, and there is no easy way to tape the connection like there is with a twofer. You have more flexibility in using them as you can split them up as needed.

If you are trying to make it easy to power edison practicals - build some adapters. That way you can plug in an edison practical on any circuit - not just the one where you have put the box.

For my two cents - the only time a box is better would be if you plan to permanently fasten it to a pipe or a wall. In that case we need to be talking about how you see that connection working. Even if you were to try and do that, I would suggest you think about using pigtails from the box instead of flush mounted receptacles. A pigtail is just easier to work with (IMHO)

I hope you don't feel like I am raining on the parade here. I just want to make sure that you end up with something that solves the need, and I am not sure what that need is yet. If you could take a moment to explain what problem you are trying to solve, without suggesting a solution - you might find a much simpler path.

My idea was to have a quad box to run Edison practicals, and also have the option of stage pin output for use as a twofer in a catwalk or beam position. (In a catwalk, the box could just sit on the floor.) Yes, a twofer would be easier in beam position--I wouldn't have to clamp the box down or anything. Now that I think about it, it's just easier to have an adapter for the practicals, and a twofer for for the other position(s). I guess I just wanted a device to make things easier, but it ended up just being more complicated.
In retrospect, running multiple practicals off the same circuit could be as simple as adapting the circuit to Edison, and then adding a powerstrip or cube tap at the end. Don't know why I chose such a counter-intuitive solution in the first place.....

[BillESC]

This is a rubber boxes pin twofer. It can be made as a feed through so you could plug in a second twofer giving you four outputs close together.

[STEVETERRY]

Sounds like any quad box wouldn't work so well. You can build a "four-fer" using 12/3 SJO cable. Don't try to stick four cables in the male; use only two and then do the same at two of the females.

I'll try some bad ASCII art:

F F M F F
_V_V_V_V
The V's are 18" to 5' lengths of 12/3 SJO cable

The male can be anywhere in the chain, although if it's at one end, the device may be mistaken for an ACL Harness. I once built four of these in custom lengths for a 4-color, 16-unit wash. Sure the same could be accomplished using three two-fer s, but that's a lot of extra connections, and jumper s will probably be needed also.

I can see these four (or more)-fers becoming more useful as low current draw LED units (those without power pass-thru) become prevalent.

Some NEC code issues to consider:
Strain relief on connectors is not listed, by NRTL for more than one cable.
If the device qualifies as an adapter or two-fer, limited in length to 1m (each leg).
If considered a break-out, maximum length from male to farthest female is 6m.

-----
Is it acceptable to put 4x S4s on a dimmer?

It cannot be a breakout, as it does not meet the requirements of NEC 520.68(A)(4). It would need to contain two or more branch circuits. Therefore, it is an adapter or a twofer, so overall length of SJ cord is limited to 1m, not "each leg".

ST

[derekleffew]

...It can be made as a feed through so you could plug in a second twofer giving you four outputs close together.

Umm, wouldn't that then make it a three-fer?

[gafftapegreenia]

So if I understand you correctly, you aren't using the Edison and Stagepin outlets at the same time, you just want them in the same place? If that's so, no offense, but just build some adapters! And if you are using both at the same time on this box, changing the connector on a practical isn't that hard, especially if you are already competent enough to build such a box.

A stock of adapters would likely be much more versatile than a box.

[Edrick]

I believe he's saying it could be made with a feedthrough, most probably a tail coming out that has a stagepin or edison that could then feed another box?

[gafftapegreenia]

Would not fly today, as NEC prohibits single conductor cable smaller than AWG #2.

Per the usual, rules don't apply in Hollywood,

Some of ours were braided, some weren't. I had to take about half out of service due to age or poor construction. One can only cram so many conductors into an old fiber body connector!

[gafftapegreenia]

I believe he's saying it could be made with a feedthrough, most probably a tail coming out that has a stagepin or edison that could then feed another box?

Yes, that's what I gathered too. Thus, if the tail coming out of the feedthrough has a Stagepin on it, it is essentially a reinvention of the block derek pictured!

[Edrick]

Ah well yes the item he was describing would basically be a trixpher / threepher.

As mentioned though above in Hollywood / Film they get away with murder. Live events come in next.

Theater however seems to be very bound by rules and regulations.

[DMXpro]

So if I understand you correctly, you aren't using the Edison and Stagepin outlets at the same time, you just want them in the same place? If that's so, no offense, but just build some adapters! And if you are using both at the same time on this box, changing the connector on a practical isn't that hard, especially if you are already competent enough to build such a box.

A stock of adapters would likely be much more versatile than a box.

Yes! You've got it, that's what I'm saying. And yes, I now realize adapters are a little easier. I just wanted to gauge whether buying all the cable-mount connectors and extra 12/3 SO would be monetarily worth it. I already have the edison duplex and a male stage pin. Just need the box and the stage pin receptacles. I might just go ahead and build the box to further hone my wiring skills. It's probably good practice.

[StNic54]

Also remember that if you are maxing your 20amps at 2300 watts or more, you run the risk of overheating over time. Whether building boxes, or three-fering two-fers, just know that your weakest point will melt over time, so if you have any 15-amp connectors in line (you did mention edison), it will melt quickly. Ever think about lamping down a bit on your fixtures? LEX is your best resource, more than likely.

[DMXpro]

Also remember that if you are maxing your 20amps at 2300 watts or more, you run the risk of overheating over time. Whether building boxes, or three-fering two-fers, just know that your weakest point will melt over time, so if you have any 15-amp connectors in line (you did mention edison), it will melt quickly. Ever think about lamping down a bit on your fixtures? LEX is your best resource, more than likely.

I did mention edison, but I'd use the T-neutral 20A configuration for safety. All connections will be 12/3, and yes, I can lamp down to 600w or 575.
Also, 120VAC service @ 20A is 2400 watts. (Assuming fully loadable magnetic breakers, I should be fine.)

[derekleffew]

It cannot be a breakout, as it does not meet the requirements of NEC 520.68(A)(4). It would need to contain two or more branch circuits. Therefore, it is an adapter or a twofer, so overall length of SJ cord is limited to 1m, not "each leg".

Let me see if I have this straight:
A multi-circuit break-out can contain up to 120' (six 20' lengths; 240' if Pyle-National) of junior hard service cable, [NEC 520.68(A)(4)(2)]
BUT
an adapter, two-fer, three-fer, four-fer, "other single- and multiple-circuit outlet devices," etc. is limited to one meter TOTAL of cable, if hard usage [NEC 520.69(C)] ???

How can I get this changed? Where do I write my congressperson?

And while we're on the subject of adapters, I'm seeing more and more LED fixtures equipped with panel-mount PowerCon ins and outs (I think ETC makes some). Is the male 5-15 to female PowerCon power cord an adapter, and therefore limited to 1m? Are the fixture interconnects (even if they have non-mating ends?) considered cables and thus must be extra-hard usage cord regardless of length and load?

[MNicolai]

LED[/AUTOLINK] fixtures equipped with panel-mount PowerCon ins and outs (I think ETC makes some). Is the male 5-15 to female PowerCon power cord an adapter, and therefore limited to 1m? Are the fixture interconnects (even if they have non-mating ends?) considered cables and thus must be extra-hard usage cord regardless of length and load?

The summary response is don't buy adapters from ETC. Last I heard/experienced, they could only provide heavy-duty PITA adapters because if someone can use the power loop-thru for connecting fixture to fixture to fixture, all cables have to be rated to at least 15A to ensure if too many fixtures get plugged into each other, the circuit breaker trips before the conductors burn up. Try plugging one of those heavy duty cables into the back of a Desire-series fixture and then tilting the fixture up and down -- you can't. The powerCon connector plus the bend radius of the the heavy-duty cable coming out of the back of the fixture get in the way of the yoke bracket. You have to unplug, then tilt the connections past the yoke, then re-plug. Similar issue with DMX. Makes it near impossible to point the fixtures straight down because the connectors/cables will definitely be obstructed by the yoke bracket. Only sane thing to do is go to your dealer and have them swap the stock cables with lighter duty input and loop-thru cables, and then hopefully not forget your loop-thru cables may not support the full 15A.

[derekleffew]

Mike, see the document referenced at NEC Changes for 2014--Public Review, in particular the section 15-117 Log #1396 NEC-P15 (520.68)

[MNicolai]

Mike, see the document referenced at NEC Changes for 2014--Public Review, in particular the section 15-117 Log #1396 NEC-P15 (520.68)

I saw that just an hour ago. Still don't know it'll make enough of a difference. Almost need a right-angle DMX and/or powerCon connector IIRC.

[STEVETERRY]

Let me see if I have this straight:
A multi-circuit break-out can contain up to 120' (six 20' lengths; 240' if Pyle-National) of junior hard service cable, [NEC 520.68(A)(4)(2)]
BUT
an adapter, two-fer, three-fer, four-fer, "other single- and multiple-circuit outlet devices," etc. is limited to one meter TOTAL of cable, if hard usage [NEC 520.69(C)] ???

How can I get this changed? Where do I write my congressperson?

And while we're on the subject of adapters, I'm seeing more and more LED fixtures equipped with panel-mount PowerCon ins and outs (I think ETC makes some). Is the male 5-15 to female PowerCon power cord an adapter, and therefore limited to 1m? Are the fixture interconnects (even if they have non-mating ends?) considered cables and thus must be extra-hard usage cord regardless of length and load?

1. You can propose a new change to the NEC, but earliest opportunity would be for the 2017 Code. You would have to make your proposal by fall of 2014.

2. If the fixture uses SJ cord, the adapter is limited to 1m. However, under current code and UL1573, it needs to use extra hard usage cord. I have proposed a change for the 2014 code to allow hard usage cord as a luminaire feed, but still only 1m long. You can make a public comment to my proposal (See NEC thread of today), suggesting the length limit be changed, with a technical substantiation as to why it would be OK.

ST