replicating a 1970s lighting rig.

[Aman121]

Heres one for the older gentleman on CB.
Our school is planning a "blast from the past" battle of the bands to be held in our auditorium. It will include student and local bands. They asked me to do lights and sound. A major mandate is keeping everything as vintage looking and sounding as possible. I actually happen to have several older type bass bins and horns as well as some older crown amps so I can definitely get the sound right, but im a little stuck on lighting. From what I can see of old concert videos rock lighting rigs primarily consisted of par cans. It also looks like follow spots were used extensively. Can anybody elaborate on what older lighting rigs consisted off and how I might be able to replicate them? I do have a decent budget available to rent lights rigging cable ect. Yay, I can finally use the SOCA breakouts that we have but never touch!
The video I was looking at was AC/DC rock and roll ****ation, that look is really what were trying to achieve, not something huge and over the top.

[DuckJordan]

Can cans and more cans pick 3-5 colors, front wash and back wash. Spots on singer and solos keep em white.

[Aman121]

Sounds easy enough. Thanks!

[JD]

Par cans, beam projectors, lots of ACLs and lots of followspots. In the days before movers, having two of the followspots elevated at the rear of the stage was a classic functional look. Often used two or four FOH and two rear.




Older gentlemen??

[derekleffew]

...Spots on singer and solos keep em white.

Not necessarily. A blue stage with red followspots on the singer/solo, or the reverse, works just as well. One Van Halen concert, spots were bumping color like no tomorrow. Next tour, no color-changes at all, stayed in CTO the entire night (due to IMAG).

For the PAR washes: Red, Blue, Turquoise, Straw, Green, Amber... Use the most garish colors you can find, and in EVERY possible combination. Rather than 1K PARs, hang twice as many 500W!

...Older gentlemen?? ...

If you have photos of carbon-arc Troupers taken in your garage, you qualify.

[Aman121]

So no colors are wrong and too many pars is impossible? I can handle that! We also have some border strips, Ill use them as footlights. I guess ill get some trees for additional hanging space. Our local rental place will rent pars for quarters a day so I think we can do this under budget too! For follow spots, ill probably throw some of our ERSs on sticks in addition to our Troupers. This seems almost too easy.....
Other question- were the lights just manually flashed, or was it common to programs chases and such? How crazy did things get? Seems to me with all those lights you could do some fun stuff, but I guess they would have been limited by the consoles of the day.

[MPowers]

I was crew on a Santana tour in '69. We used 6 carbon arc troupers for most venues, 2 troupers and 4 super troupers for large venues. Stage Lighting IIRC was 100% cans th brand new innovation in concert lighting!!!!, mostly on pipes hung with block and fall, no chain hoists then, but I was rigging and spot op so I could be wrong. The two always troupers were on upstage towers (scaffolding then, not truss) and the FOH changed from trouper to super as the distance changed.

On a stop in Oklahoma city at OCU (Oklahoma City University) I had a very unusual experience. The concert was in a small basketball dome stadium, intended for about 2,500 watching basketball. With end stage and floor seating they managed to cram about 6,000 into the space. The space was so small we only had two FOH spots and the two up stage spots. We were almost together, only about 15' apart and right at the peak of the dome. Paul was 6'-2" and he could touch the roof from his tower I'm only 5'-7" so I was just short.

Now, this was the 60's....... the tag line is "if you remember the 60's you weren't there!". The reported crowd was 6K I suspect crashers and such made it closer to 7.5K and a VERY large percentage were partaking of cannabis. Paul and I were at the top of the dome, the only air-vent out. What I recall was roughly 2/3 through the first half Jim the SM changed all the cues to "aim it where you think the singer is, pick a color!" We were told to stay on the towers at intermission, someone would bring us food and a bucket. At the end of the show they sent someone up to bring us down....so I've been told. I was one of the few who did not smoke (tobacco or weed) during that time, or since, but I can truthfully say I probably got higher that once than any of my friends ever did. History 101.

[Aman121]

wow that's quite a story! a little OT but what kinda sound system were they touring with? I'd assume altec/jbl bins with crown dc 300s or perhaps still tube amps? what did they use for dimming/control?

[JohnD]

For more on audio in the day, check out this from prosoundweb:
HistoryOfConcertSound.org
Also check out this from The Who:
PA and Foldback Introduction | The Who Equipment | The Who’s PA & Foldback | Whotabs
Also check out the link to their stage lighting.
Probably one of the best known LD's at the time was Chip Monck, You can see him in action in the Woodstock movie. He also may have been the first to use par cans.
When he did the Stones "Altamont" tour (for film see Gimme Shelter), in which he used an upstage truss of pars, (ground supported with hydraulic telescoping lifts, not the co2 powered Genies) and 8 super troupers upstage, shining onto a mylar mirror over the audience, reflecting back onto the stage.

Also at the time, Mac Mcmanus(sp) was using an upstage truss of pars and downstage scaf towers with baby spots (I remember seeing 6 per side). You know 5K fresnels do give a lovely light.. In the Who link they were also using baby's as blinders.
On a smaller scale, a common special was a fresnel without lens on the floor behind the drummer for backlight on drum solo's. We didn't need no stinkin' hazers, the audience provided the "haze".

[JD]

wow that's quite a story! a little OT but what kinda sound system were they touring with? I'd assume altec/jbl bins with crown dc 300s or perhaps still tube amps? what did they use for dimming/control?

Lots of DC300's Large horn loaded bass bins, JBL and ALTEC drivers on Community Light and Sound horns:


Most dimmers were early EDI and TTI packs in huge un-liftable racks.

In defense of the LD: Although equipment was limited back then, do not underestimate the artistic usage of the equipment. There were many "Flash & Trash" shows, but there were also many well though out and breathtaking shows as well.

Older gentlemen??

If you have photos of carbon-arc Troupers taken in your garage, you qualify.

Why Derek, Whatever do you mean by that?

[len]

Finding pars would be no problem. Keep them chrome if at all possible. But not only would it be more difficult to find old speaker boxes, quality might be an issue. Maybe build some fake fronts to give it that look, but use modern sound equipment. Although I'm sure you could find a padded, orange bass rig somewhere.

[Aman121]

I actually own 2 old altec bass bins as well as some homeade subs and some newer 18 inch horns, I use them for DJing and sound reinforcement all the time. They have a nice sound but they weigh a ton.


Thanks to everyone for the insight, this will be a fun project!

[JD]

Chrome cans were more the "Glam Rock", black cans were more "Hard Rock."

Some of those old bass bins and horns were really great! Back then, amplifier power was limited, so the cabinets had to be large and heavy to be efficient. These days, wattage is plentiful, so cabinets can be smaller and more portable. Back then it was "Stack", now it is "Line Array." Sound is far more consistent these days due to the technical improvements, but as with lighting, that didn't preclude some great sounding systems back then! Altec A7's were a great sounding mid-bass unit, although the JBL version was easier to carry and less awkward. The Altec 511 /811's with the 808a driver was rather anemic, but change that to a 311 with a 291G driver and it was sweet !

[BillESC]

This was my rig mid/late 70's out with Teddy Perdergrass.

[JohnD]

Don't forget that there was always some dude in front of the stack of folded "W" bass bins dancing!! And it was always someone who must have studied at the Joe Cocker school of dance.

[avkid]

I know where you can get a whole rig circa 1978.

[Aman121]

Chrome cans were more the "Glam Rock", black cans were more "Hard Rock."

Some of those old bass bins and horns were really great! Back then, amplifier power was limited, so the cabinets had to be large and heavy to be efficient. These days, wattage is plentiful, so cabinets can be smaller and more portable. Back then it was "Stack", now it is "Line Array." Sound is far more consistent these days due to the technical improvements, but as with lighting, that didn't preclude some great sounding systems back then! Altec A7's were a great sounding mid-bass unit, although the JBL version was easier to carry and less awkward. The Altec 511 /811's with the 808a driver was rather anemic, but change that to a 311 with a 291G driver and it was sweet !

Cant remember the number on mine, but they are baisically cut down a7s without the horn section. I had the drivers rebuilt at Great Plains Audio; GPA services and provides replacement parts for all the old altec speakers.Wow we've gotten a little OT here, but whatever! This is a great discussion! I love hearing about the old days......

[STEVETERRY]

This was my rig mid/late 70's out with Teddy Perdergrass.

You guys are just too old for me. :-)


ST

[BillESC]

I'm too old for me :-(

[JD]

Cant remember the number on mine, but they are baisically cut down a7s without the horn section. I had the drivers rebuilt at Great Plains Audio; GPA services and provides replacement parts for all the old altec speakers.Wow we've gotten a little OT here, but whatever! This is a great discussion! I love hearing about the old days......

Someone's going to yell that this should be on the sound thread, but yea, GPA is the modern extension of the old ALTEC. Something very sweet about the 421-8H LFs and 291/288 drivers. Still have a bunch of the later back in the shed. (Along with bins and a couple of the BRH90's from the picture way above. DC300s too. All still works. I think those cut-downs are referred to as Perkins bins.

[gafftaper]

Thanks for sharing guys, there are some great stories in this thread.

[TimMiller]

I know where you can get a whole rig circa 1978.

Isnt that a qm500? I know it's definately an avo console. I have a diamond1 I can't wait to restore.

[avkid]

I believe it is.
Owned by Naked Zoo Enterprises of Minneapolis/St Paul and still touring with The Commodores.
Everything down to the motors is vintage. (a few 1/4 ton silver Loadstars)

Proof that you don't need all the latest toys to put on a good show.

[MPowers]

wow that's quite a story! a little OT but what kinda sound system were they touring with? I'd assume altec/jbl bins with crown dc 300s or perhaps still tube amps? what did they use for dimming/control?

Not really OT, I described the light rig just before the 70's. As for sound system?????? How on earth would I know? Technology, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from Magic. When sound moved beyond reel to reel tape an white leader for setting up cues, it was magic for me. I was a squint and a rigger, but never a squeak.

As for dimmers, we were one of the last tours (AFAIK) to still use old world technology. We had 6 Luxtrol "6-Packs"
Dimmer, Autotransformer - ControlBooth Second picture down.
Six 1K auto transformer dimmers and one 6K dimmer. The 6K dimmer could be a stand alone dimmer or a master for the other 6. We use them as stand alone dimmers giving us 42 total dimmers.

As for the lights them selves, it's been a while. We had a mix of par-cans and fresnels but I really don't remember how many of each.

[Aman121]

Sorry I meant my question was OT!!! Thanks again for sharing! My b. That's kinda nuts, I didn't think auto transformers ever toured. I have to use one in a church auditorium regularly, it's a huge pain to run.

[derekleffew]

... That's kinda nuts, I didn't think auto transformers ever toured. ...

As the legend goes: Prior to 1956, all Broadway theatres, as well as most large road houses across the country, had DC power, which necessitated the use of piano boards. My Fair Lady opened at the Mark Hellinger Theatre in NYC on 3/15/1956 with Dimmer, Autotransformers. Thus, if a theatre owner wanted to book the enormously successful production, he simply had no choice but to put in AC power.

Although there's not a lot of operational difference between ATDs and Dimmer, Resistance, I contend that MFL (lighting by Abe Feder) was more significant to stage lighting history than that 1975 disjointed play about dancers and its lighting computer. Grease, closing in 1980, was the last show on Broadway to use piano boards.
-----
Tying the topic of control back to the thread; in the seventiues, lighting control would have been a two- or three-scene preset console with possibly a pin patch (pin matrix, aka Battleship patch), and bump bottoms on every channel and submaster. British companies Alderham and Electrosonic were the leading manufacturers (Celco and Avolites came later). In the US, See Factor, Bill McManus, James Moody, and others built their own consoles from scratch in their garages. It was relatively easy to build a console that output 0-10vDC to control EDI, TTI, Skirpan dimmers. Search for the history of Leprecon, I'm pretty sure we've discussed it here.

Concert Lighting by James Moody contains lots of R&R lighting history. Hopefully you can get your hands on a copy before your gig, Aman121. Regarding something said above (and in the above book, which the author promises to correct in the next edition), about Chip Monck, McManus, or Altman having invented the PARcan, Ariel Davis Manufacturing Company in Salt Lake City had a ParLiter at least six years before any of the others. See the thread/post: PAR, ACL, and PAR Can invention .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StFhvAIv3Js
Watching the above, one sees carbon-arc Super Trouper s, and Kliegl lekos hung from pipe; not a parcan to be found. (I think I read in an interview with Chip Monck that, due to time restraints and the rain, the stage lighting was never used, followspots lit the entire show.) By the end of the 1970s, PRT and the par-bar had taken over.

[MPowers]

......... That's kinda nuts, I didn't think auto transformers ever toured. I have to use one in a church auditorium regularly, it's a huge pain to run.

They were 1/6 the size and weight of a Piano Board, didn't need ghost loads if not fully loaded. Like piano boards they were bullet proof, drop them off the back of a truck and when they stopped bouncing, they still worked. Yeah they toured. A lot of the Ariel Davis 6 pack units (6 taps on a single coil) toured, really small and light by comparison, only about 100# (IIRC) for 6 dimmers. A/B switches but total capacity was not 6 times the capacity af any one dimmer. The few tours that tried to use electronic boards back then carried 2 or 3 extras. Century EdKotron was out there but was a terrible tour board. The dimmers had a sand filled cartridge fuse which the SCR in the dimmer protected nicely, if you get my drift.

They (AT dimmers) were only a pain to run because you are used to a solid state dimmer with a console FOH. If you had learned on piano boards, you viewpoint would be a bit different. Auto Transformers don't convert low light levels like a night scene or romantic interlude into 14 3KW room heaters in the dimmer room. The light board ops for "Student Prince" North Shore '69, (5 guys and one lady for 70 dimmers) ran Piano Boards in sandals and swim suits cuz the whole show was night and romantic and dream sequence, it was WARM in the control room. Piano Boards had 14 3KW plates on a single board, most "portable" AT boards had 6 or 7. Piano boards were so named because they were roughly the size and shape and heavier than a spinet piano. Piano Boards ran on any power source, AC or DC, any voltage. AT dimmers had to have AC power. 2 BIG guys (or one REALLY BIG guy, saw it once) could hump a Luxtrol 6 pac around, 4 guys couldn't budge a piano board unless it was on wheels. As mentioned, AT dimmers did not need to be load balanced or supplied with a ghost load to completely dim to dark. If there were 4 lights on a dimmer and one blew, it did not change the dimming curve or require switching off to go to black. Both AT and Resistance dimmers continued to tour into the 80's as they were RE-liable, IN-destructible. Plug 'em in and they always worked.

I know Kliegl had electronic dimmers in '69 but I don't remember if they had a tour version of the dimmer or console.

[JChenault]

I know Kliegl had electronic dimmers in '69 but I don't remember if they had a tour version of the dimmer or console.

I started college in 1967 and my school ( University of Alabama) was installing a Kliegl portable system. As I remember it was 24 channels on a two scene split faders. A/B switch on each fader so you could assign the channel to a sub master.

The dimmers were in a rolling rack about 2 1/2 feet square and 3 feet tall. The dimmers were not any kind of module that could be removed without tools.

I have no idea how successful it was in the marketplace but it did exist.

[JD]

I started college in 1967 and my school ( University of Alabama) was installing a Kliegl portable system. As I remember it was 24 channels on a two scene split faders. A/B switch on each fader so you could assign the channel to a sub master.

The dimmers were in a rolling rack about 2 1/2 feet square and 3 feet tall. The dimmers were not any kind of module that could be removed without tools.

I have no idea how successful it was in the marketplace but it did exist.

In the early 1970's, your best friend was the hydraulic liftgate on the truck!! Moving a rack full of early EDI SCRimmers on anything other than a level surface was a bone crushing experience! Good solid dimmers, but a twelve-pack weighed in at more that 120 pounds! A few of those in a rack and you had to paint a skull and crossbones on the side!

[StNic54]

Check youtube - watch the video "Journey: Frontiers and Beyond"

It's from 1984 and can give you a good idea of where music and lighting were beginning to take a new form, but much of the older style is still there

[Arez]

(I think I read in an interview with Chip Monck that, due to time restraints and the rain, the stage lighting was never used, followspots lit the entire show.)

PLSN's interview with him in the May 2012 issue touched on it, "What many don't realize is that Woodstock was originally to be held on another farm, but the organizers were kicked off that land and had to set up on Max Yasgur's farm for the event. So there was an entire lighting design that never got put up because tehy ran out of time to put the roof on the stage. Scores of lights sat under the stage, unused" (32-33). There's a few interesting stories in the article, it's a good read.

[JohnD]

This link just got posted at prosoundweb, and I thought it might be of interest to this thread.
New and Hot Video: Premiere: Grateful Dead Play 'Going Down the Road' at 1974 Show | Rolling Stone
After a while, the get to the setup of the famous "wall of sound".

[museav]

Probably one of the best known LD's at the time was Chip Monck, You can see him in action in the Woodstock movie."

A rather interesting pairing as I have read that Chip Monck felt the lighting was to support the live audience and was generally not amenable to compromising that in any way in order to accommodate Michael Wadleigh and the film crew, which is apparently why the movie includes a limited number of scenes shot after dark and why acts such as Janis Joplin had to be dropped completely from the original film.

Consider that not just the technology itself but also how it was used was different.

What I also find interesting in many such exercises is that the context has changed so much, and those around at the time may remember things not wuite as they actually were, that accurately recreating period tech can give an other than intended result. When you remember or perceive something as having looked and sounded so great it can be rather disappointing to find that from a technical perspective how it looks and sounds are so bad compared to what modern technology allows. And that can be even more of a factor if the performers also can't live up to the perceptions and memories. It can all too easily become a satire rather than an homage.

[techieman33]

The rig George Jones was carrying sounded amazing earlier this year. They were carrying McIntosh 2300 amps that were built in '71, and the pa was from that period of time as well. The whole setup was pretty cool to see and hear about even thought a lot of it went over my head since I'm a lighting guy.

[SteveB]

A rather interesting pairing as I have read that Chip Monck felt the lighting was to support the live audience and was generally not amenable to compromising that in any way in order to accommodate Michael Wadleigh and the film crew, which is apparently why the movie includes a limited number of scenes shot after dark and why acts such as Janis Joplin had to be dropped completely from the original film.

Consider that not just the technology itself but also how it was used was different.

What I also find interesting in many such exercises is that the context has changed so much, and those around at the time may remember things not wuite as they actually were, that accurately recreating period tech can give an other than intended result. When you remember or perceive something as having looked and sounded so great it can be rather disappointing to find that from a technical perspective how it looks and sounds are so bad compared to what modern technology allows. And that can be even more of a factor if the performers also can't live up to the perceptions and memories. It can all too easily become a satire rather than an homage.

It was only in the past few years that I learned the story of how the Woodstock lighting rig never got installed. It totally explains why all the film lighting was from 12 Super Troupers on the 4 front scaffolds. No back, top or side lighting to be found anywhere.

@ Derek, and as reply to the importance of Abe Feder bringing in AT dimmers for My Fair Lady versus ACL using a computer, no chance the AT's were more or even as important.

Not many of the Broadway theaters converted to AC as a result of MFL using AT's. There simply was no overwhelming advantage when compared to DC (for Broadway). There was no overwhelming decrease in space required, no reductions in crew sizes, no increase in dimmers and resulting control flexibility.

Chorus Line changed EVERYTHING and we never looked back.

[gafftapegreenia]

The rig George Jones was carrying sounded amazing earlier this year. They were carrying McIntosh 2300 amps that were built in '71, and the pa was from that period of time as well. The whole setup was pretty cool to see and hear about even thought a lot of it went over my head since I'm a lighting guy.

It's certainly what we have said time and time again, that just because equipment is older does not mean that shows done with it will be bad, and that just because someone has top of the line gear at their disposal glorious art is not guaranteed.

SO MUCH depends on the choices made by the people who use the equipment, and a myriad of factors determines these choices. Especially in older gear, maintenance plays a big part as well.

[derekleffew]

...@ Derek, and as reply to the importance of Abe Feder bringing in AT dimmers for My Fair Lady versus ACL using a computer, no chance the AT's were more or even as important.
Not many of the Broadway theaters converted to AC as a result of MFL using AT's. There simply was no overwhelming advantage when compared to DC (for Broadway). There was no overwhelming decrease in space required, no reductions in crew sizes, no increase in dimmers and resulting control flexibility. ...

(Not arguing, just playing devil's advocate) So WHY? did Feder insist on autotransformer dimmers for My Fair Lady? The only advantages I can think of are less heat and ghost load not needed.

[Aman121]

I realize your concerns about quality, but I think we will do fine. I have already started plotting and drafting down stage ideas. As it turns out one of the band members was a touring LD back in the 70s and he and I have already been talking. Last year I got to mess around with my sound system in the space and I filled it no problem with much better quality sound than our respectable house pa. The gig is in November, I'll be sure to post some pictures!