Is a Windows based console really a good thing?

[Jezza]

Alright, so I want to hear what everyones thoughts are on this. Is having a good portion of the most powerful and well respected lighting consoles in the industry Windows based a good thing?

Windows, as we all know, is not meant to be an "artistic" operating system. Windows is for business men, mathematicians, etc. More importantly, Windows is VULNERABLE. I can't tell you how many times I see Windows running on a standard PC crash, flip out, need tech support, etc. Similarly, I can't tell you how many times I see PC based consoles (like the Hog iPC) go bonkers because of a systems issue with Windows. And come on, we all know we aren't supposed to use the "computer" or standard Windows OS functionality that comes on some of the consoles, but we do, and we all know its not good for the console. There is a reason for that.

My position on it is this: Windows is an inherently flawed OS. By basing some of the most powerful consoles on it, aren't we just asking for problems? Shouldn't we create proprietary OSs or software versions that can run independently and do exactly what we ask for? "Dummer" consoles such as the simpler ETC consoles and many other of the older conventional consoles have are based on a code that was written exclusively for them. How often do/did you experience a "system error" or "kernal panic" on one of those.

Now I'm not trying to get in a whole Mac v. PC fight here, but if we are going to base ourselves off of an existing operating system, for simplicity, cost effectiveness, power, etc., doesn't it make sense to go Mac. Mac's track record w/ bugs, customer service, and ingenuity is impeccable compared to Windows. And I'll bet that half of you on here use Macs and the other 50% wished they did. A Mac is built for the artists. If your a designer, board op, electrician, audio engineer etc., you are an artists in your own right. In my mind, it just makes sense.

[Van]

No I refuse to get into a PC vs. Mac war. Just don't want to go down that road. Having said that I think there are several points at which I disagree with you on a fundamental basis.

"Windows, as we all know, is not meant to be an "artistic" operating system. Windows is for business men, mathematicians, etc."

You have been watching too many Mac commercials. I have worked three seperate jobs at which I functioned as a graphics designer, all of which used PC's for their production department. I cut together video, music, graphics, etc. all the time on my PC. as quickly and efficiently as my buddies using a mac.


More importantly, Windows is VULNERABLE. I can't tell you how many times I see Windows running on a standard PC crash, flip out, need tech support, etc. Similarly, I can't tell you how many times I see PC based consoles (like the Hog iPC) go bonkers because of a systems issue with Windows. And come on, we all know we aren't supposed to use the "computer" or standard Windows OS functionality that comes on some of the consoles, but we do, and we all know its not good for the console. There is a reason for that.

I think you answered you own circular logic on this one. A console PC is a PC for the Console, not for Surfing the net, playing Halo, or attempting to hack the schools mainframe. Currently we run Horizon on a machine that hadn't been replaced for 9 years until last year when the fan on the processor went out. In that time the only "crashes" we ever had were do to power outages, or shorts in the KVM cables. On the same bent I'd prefer to wait the 20 seconds it takes my PC to reboot rather than the 45sec - 1 minute for most Macs.

My position on it is this: Windows is an inherently flawed OS.

Can't argue with that. It's the best flawed OS out there though.

doesn't it make sense to go Mac. Mac's track record w/ bugs, customer service, and ingenuity is impeccable compared to Windows. And I'll bet that half of you on here use Macs and the other 50% wished they did.


Mac's Track record with Bugs is great, Customer service, repair costs, and service availibility, however, is atrosious. When 75% of the kids in high school today can operate and do simple repairs on a PC running Windows, as opposed to having to go spend $200.00 to have a Mac tech tell you he's got to send it back to the factory for a Flugle Valve adjustment. I'd rather keep my Console on a PC thank you.


A Mac is built for the artists. If your a designer, board op, electrician, audio engineer etc., you are an artists in your own right. In my mind, it just makes sense.

Again I'll point you to my opening remark. Apparently you've been watching too many Mac vs. PC commercials.

Something that you didn't address was cost, this is often the case, when the whole PCvsMac contriversy arises. I can afford to build / buy 2.5 -3 P.C.'s running Windows for my both with the same amount of money that I would need to spend on just one Mac to run sound. in the world of Non-profit ..... 'nuff said.

[gafftaper]

Two things:

They are using embedded versions of Windows that are fairly well locked down. There are a lot of things you can't do with it in order to make it more stable. If, as Van said, you are a good little techie and don't mess with the system it should be quite stable.

Secondly. Console software isn't some some great artistic graphic software. It's a simple program changing number values. The software itself is much closer to a spread sheet than to video editing software. Even WYSIWYG itself is pretty primitive by 3D rendering standards.

Finally, don't be scared by the Mac disinformation campaign. My Home XP P.C. has only crashed when I was trying to run 6 different programs at the same time. Under normal operation with only 2 or 3 programs open it has never crashed. Windows isn't nearly as unstable and problematic as the commercials want to scare you into believing. Again this is especially true when you are talking about locked down embedded software.

[Footer]

Totally agree with the above post. If you are doing the PC based console, great, just buy one computer for that, and THATS ALL THAT COMPUTER DOES. Windows is very stable, as long as you don't F with it. But if you want even more stability, go with a linux based console or a DOS based console (strand 300/500 series and the pallet's).

[jmabray]

Windows, as we all know, is not meant to be an "artistic" operating system. Windows is for business men, mathematicians, etc

A Mac is built for the artists. If your a designer, board op, electrician, audio engineer etc., you are an artists in your own right. In my mind, it just makes sense.

The inherent flaw in this argument is simply that a lighting console is doing more math processing than anything else. All of the effects engines are based upon sine, cosine and tangent operations. Running numbers up and down, fade times, etc - these are all mathmatical functions. not an artistic one in the bunch, as far as the computer is concerned.....
To top this all off, if you are running a console that is running xp, it is embedded xp, which is significantly different from the regular xp or xp pro. And considering you aren't loading Doom or surfing the net while you are running a show, you are just fine running xp.

[Pie4Weebl]

Software is software regardless of which os it is on... And PCs are fine if you're not a retard. If your running kazaa and downloading music on a pc you're running a show off of you deserve for it to crash.

[icewolf08]

One of the reasons that we will probably never see a Mac OS basd lighting console is because, as Steve Jobs has said: "Apple is not a software company, we make hardware and innovations." This is the same reason that you can't run Mac OS X on a PC, but you can run Windows natively on any Intel Mac. Microsoft is a software company, if a computer manufacturer wants to make a machine that will run Windows, they can, but only Apple can make machines that run OS X.

That being said, if console manufacturers wanted to use another os instead of Windows, the ideal choice would most likely be LINUX or UNIX. Strand was looking at LINUX for the new Palette lines then went with Horizon when Genlyte bought them.

When you look back at the major players in consoles up to today you will notice that almost all of them are DOS based. All of the ETC consoles up to Obsession II and all of the Strand 300/500 series. DOS really has been one of the most stable OS's. Also, if you look at the Obsession II startup, you will notice that the Obsession II runs DOS and then another OS on top, and then Obsession is another program. Whereas Strand OS runs natively in DOS.

[Radman]

I've heard that the Expression OS was based on Linux, was that true?

I think that a good OS to go with would be Linux: no cost, stable, and its open source

[JD]

My "Day" job for the last 20 years has been IT work. (Information Technology) The thought of doing a live show on a Windows based control is about the same as getting on an airplane that was being flown by Windows based software.... Probably, nothing will happen, but if it does, it will be really ugly! (Imagine a reboot while there is a stuck scene (or worse) on stage!) Although the GUI in windows supports running a 3d version of your scenes for preview, my first priority is that the stage actually lights up! To "Protest" the migration to Windows based software is like swimming against the current. It's going there if we like it or not! As for Windows vs Mac, don't believe the ads on tv, Macs screw up big time as well. What is needed for any imbedded system is software that is written in machine language custom for that application. Both Mac OS and Windows were written to support 50,000 things that will not be needed to do stage lighting, but might get in the way. EOR (End Of Rant) One good plan would be to have a manual board in your back pocket

[Jezza]

Just to counter argue, I have not been watching too many Mac v. PC commercials. I have owned both in my lifetime and currently own an Intel based Mac but work with XP based P.C.s every day. So my claims are not based on television ads or propaganda, they are based on real life experience and findings.

That said, this thread did become a Mac v. PC war. My statement about the Mac was just an option to toss out there, not an end-all, be-all solution to the PC based OS.

I am attempting to address the whether running a lighting console off of any standard homeowner computer operating system (Mac or PC because those are the most popular) is a good idea in general. I attack PC because, well, no one has a Mac based console anymore. And well there may be good reasons why not, to me it is still curious as to why we base ourselves on Windows. Enough Said.

[Footer]

One of the reasons that we will probably never see a Mac OS basd lighting console is because, as Steve Jobs has said: "Apple is not a software company, we make hardware and innovations." This is the same reason that you can't run Mac OS X on a PC, but you can run Windows natively on any Intel Mac.
DOS.

The Lanbox which has been around for a long time was originally programmed for the Mac.

[soundlight]

The Lanbox which has been around for a long time was originally programmed for the Mac.

I think that what icewolf08 was trying to get at is that there will never be an actual console (not referring to a DMX interface, not a usb control wing, etc) with a native Mac OS.

[len]

Totally agree with the above post. If you are doing the PC based console, great, just buy one computer for that, and THATS ALL THAT COMPUTER DOES. Windows is very stable, as long as you don't F with it. But if you want even more stability, go with a linux based console or a DOS based console (strand 300/500 series and the pallet's).

I don't know anything about Linux, so I can't argue with you that it's more stable. I don't know that any lighting console will work with Linux, either. My guess is that they won't.

As for the whole "get a pc for your lighting control only" idea, I must be either incredibly lucky or the biggest exception in the world. After over 6 years, I've NEVER had a crash or major issue with mine. If I'm programming/running a show and there's wi-fi I can access, I'm usually surfing or watching youtube WHILE I'm running the show. Sometimes I'll be listening to music, sometimes ... Typically, the machine I'm using is on for 10 - 12 hours straight, and heat could be an issue. But I make sure to keep it very clean and free of dust, and I also use a cooling fan on it.

[JSFox]

There are a number of very important reasons why so many consoles and other devices are win based.

First of all to say that this is not an OS war is disengenious. New control systems are going to be CPU based and anything CPU based needs an OS. Writing your own OS is difficult and extremely expensive so using an existing OS is a very quick no-brainer. So, it's an issue then of choosing which one.

Linux is a first option for many and from a purely technical standpoint is generally viewed as the best option but has some drawbacks including lack of commercial support, limited pre-developed and supportable routines, limited hardware support, concerns about future viability, difficulty finding good and affordable developers, and end-users are not as familiar with it.

Mac has 2 huge drawbacks. First is that hardware is limited to Apple (eg, they go under, decide to get out of PC business, don't want to develop a custom platform for a lighting company, etc.) Second is that the OS is fairly closed. Many routines that can be developed on a Linux or Win platform cannot be done on a Mac OS. The folks writing the DL2 & Axon software can tell you all about this. Stability is also questionable as most FCP users can testify.

Win. Has many drawbacks, but are more easily surmountable than those above. It will run on a variety of different CPU's, it's easy to build custom hardware for it, it's commercial viability into the future is high, good developers are plentiful and affordable, there are tons of ancillary programs already written for it, etc. Biggest drawback is stability which can be controlled with good code and error handling routines (and keeping people from playing games on the lighting console).

Many of the folks developing all of these consoles have done some fairly extensive evaluation of their options and have made the decisions they have for a reason.

[soundlight]

I think that the key to a good win-based console is not trying to screw with it. Not installing new applications on it unless they are essential to running the lighting program, not using it for anything other than lighting, and updating it as necessary. You may get a lucky streak, but when it ends, your show will...well...black out on a zero count unless you have a HOLD backup on your DMX line somewhere that holds the DMX values for a set amount of time (or infinitely).

[DarSax]

Screw it I'm building a punch card based console.

[soundlight]

Haha...there's no way that I can beat that one, but...

And I'll build one with a BASIC stamp 2p40 module.

[wakkoroti]

One of the reasons that we will probably never see a Mac OS basd lighting console is because.

The Virtuoso is a Mac based lighting console, and one of the most stable in the industry - just sayin.

Also, Linux isn't the 'holy grail' of OS either, a certain blue console is linux based and well, you know the history of that thing.

Consoles are only as good as the team building it.

[avkid]

The Virtuoso is a Mac based lighting console, and one of the most stable in the industry - just sayin.

PRG's Virtuoso® DX2

[JSFox]

The Virtuoso is a Mac based lighting console, and one of the most stable in the industry - just sayin.

Still my favorite console even though I'm starting to fall rather deeply for a GrandMA.

[wakkoroti]

I wish it wasn't so...german ;-)

[fredthe]

Screw it I'm building a punch card based console.

I've got some punchcards here that you can use...

[fredthe]

My "Day" job for the last 20 years has been IT work. (Information Technology) The thought of doing a live show on a Windows based control is about the same as getting on an airplane that was being flown by Windows based software....

Note that some consoles (The Strand Palette/Light palette) use Embedded Windows XP, not standard desktop windows. Unless you've been working in embedded systems development, you have no basis of comaprison.

The Key requirement for a console OS is "real-time" operation; i.e. not having to suddenly wait for your cue to execute while the OS is off doing other things. Embedded XP is designed for this, and is also hardened against being mucked with by the users. There are some variants of Linux that are similarly designed, in addition to several custom systems, such as VXworks. AFAIK, Apple doesn't make an embedded version of OS-X, as their market is strictly interactive users.

Developing for Embedded Windows also has the advantage that an off-line version is easy to produce, as the code is nearly identical to the console code; if the console ran on Linux or VXworks, then they would need to spend additional $$$ on a windows version for off-line use. Note that if the console were Mac-based and the off-line version were also Mac-only, then I could run my off-line version on my Mac, bot not my PC. If the off-line version is PC-based, then I can run it on either my PC, or my (Intel-based) Mac.

So, yes, I will accept that Windows-based consles are the way most manufacturers will go; and if they use Embedded Windows, they will be as stable as any other OS (even VXworks can crash), and they will be able to offer additional features (such as off-line editors and remote control) at a lower cost.

[gafftaper]

and they will be able to offer additional features (such ass off-line editors and remote control) at a lower cost.

Fred I don't think I want an off-line ass editor.

Anyway, I want to point out that there seem to be two different topics discussed here.

Topic #1 Consoles like the Strand Palettes that are switching from being DOS based to using embedded Windows XP as their OS.

Topic #2 Computer based lighting software and a dongle. Why are none of these products Mac/Linux based?

As far as topic #1 I'm a P.C. guy and I'm very comfortable with XP in my console. Especially with the added stability of it being embedded. I'll Keep the console disconnected from the outside internet and, if I catch someone as much as playing solitaire on my console they'll find them self sorting screws in the shop for a month.

As far as topic #2 it seems odd that someone out there isn't designing light console software to be run off of a Mac or Linux. Maybe it's just the numbers game of going with the largest number of potential customers. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me as there are a lot of loyal Mac users out there who would go out of their way to buy a product if it ran on their system. It seems like if one company came out with a Mac version of their console software they could really clean up.

[soundlight]

As has already been mentioned, that would take alot of work with Apple, because only Apple machines can run OS X. This is most likely the major issue blocking the use of the Apple OS for consoles.

Also, as has been stated before, an embedded OS with blocks on user customization is alot more stable then the straight up windows OS, which does have some problems, but is no more stable than the Mac OS. Sure, it requires virus protection, but so does OS X. You may not know it, but there is a team of folks working hard at Apple to make sure that a Mac virus is never developed. Nice of them, isn't it?

Personally, I wish that everyone would just go back to using DOS, just about the most rock-solid OS ever.

[JD]

What I would love to see is server-side DMX control. (ex: a server and DMX interface on stage, a workstation in the control booth.) The advantage here is it would be platform independent. The workstation would log into the server and run the show in a browser interface. (in other words, no special software on the workstation.) Network speeds are 100m+ which would transparent to DMX control which is about 250k. Also, server OS software tends to be more stable. You could also have multiple workstations all running the same show, or even grab a wireless laptop and sit in the audience!
Funny, the gaming industry already has all this software figured out! (Just ask a video game nut)
Well, we can dream can't we?

[wakkoroti]

What I would love to see is server-side...

http://www.interactive-online.com/cueserver/

This does a little bit of what you said, it's just not very pretty.

[Footer]

What I would love to see is server-side DMX control. (ex: a server and DMX interface on stage, a workstation in the control booth.) The advantage here is it would be platform independent. The workstation would log into the server and run the show in a browser interface. (in other words, no special software on the workstation.) Network speeds are 100m+ which would transparent to DMX control which is about 250k. Also, server OS software tends to be more stable. You could also have multiple workstations all running the same show, or even grab a wireless laptop and sit in the audience!
Funny, the gaming industry already has all this software figured out! (Just ask a video game nut)
Well, we can dream can't we?

They have had variations of that for a long time. They are playback controllers. Strands is the 510i, which you can connect through an xconnect dongle and your good to go. When you pull off of it, it can run a show through SMTP, go button, what have you. Essentially a console in a stand alone box. ETC, High End, and a host of other company's make them. The web access thing isnt there yet, but then again Xconnect is a simple dongle and your good to go, no software to install.

[PadawanGeek]

I think that with a Mac, manufacturers would be limited on what kind of hardware they could have their consoles be, and if you wanted to get away from Windows, I say go Linux (I don't know why they didn't do that in the first place).

[Radman]

I heard that the Express software was based on Linux, does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

[pacman]

I've had six crashes on my Windows XP embedded Congo since September; that's crashes, as in everything locks up & you reboot the console. ETC thinks some of these were software issues, but they can't recreate & identify the cause of most of them, despite having the show & log files. Whether it is a software or hardware issue really doesn't matter to me, I just need a reliable lighting controller and the Congo (unfortunately) has not proven to be reliable for me.

[jfitzpat]

After Barry Bond's record breaking HR season a fair number of other players started trying mahogany bats. Bond's response, "It's the warrior, not the weapon..." One could argue that it is the warrior, and his chemical enhancement, but the point is still solid.

I am an OS atheist. My first serious exposure to a commercial OS was writing floppy disk support for CP/M (yes, I remember when it was Intergalactic Digital Research). The first time I sent a PC on the road as a controller was a Mac SE on Pink Floid's Momentary Lapse of Reason tour ('87). I've since done commercial development for Mac, Linux, Next, every versions of Windows, and countless commercial kernels.

When Daniel and I decided to do our current controller, we were at a toss up on rather to go Mac or PC. PC had some cheap platform advantages, but Mac seemed under served and we both liked OS X a *lot* more than previous Mac platforms. Linux wasn't even a consideration, between limited desktop deployment and serious technical limitations (even the threading priority model was still broken at the time), it just wasn't interesting - though I'd just targetted the kernel on several project. So we did million operation tests to settle our own PC/Mac debate. 5 runs on each platform. Bottom line 10.2 had a threading bug, and no Mac run got past 500,000. Win 2K and XP went 5 for 5, and all Win95 derivitives had too much latency and dither. So we went Windows and limited to 2K and newer (no 95/98/ME support). If 10.4 had been out, we'd probably be Mac based.

The moral is basically what others have expressed. A controller is a lot more than the OS inside it. Note that none of the OS's mentioned (Mac, Win, Linux, etc.) are RTOS systems, so some engineering has to go into a real time system (albiet a not terribly demanding one) like DMX. So, judge the controller based on its own performance, not any preconceived notions about one part. Similiarly, if a controller proves to be unreliable crap - blame the programmers not the OS. Over the years, I've gotten decent reliability out of even some mega klunker OSs like GEM and the Amiga (principally by bypassing them), so I have no sympathy for mission critical pieces of equipment that are not up to snuff.

-jjf

[Radman]

RTLinux is real time and commercial. Just throwin that out there... (its also available non commercially)

[len]

Every so often someone brings up the issue of console stability. Some argue that pc based is bad, because Windows is bad. But in my experience and in the experience of most LightJockey users, that's just not true. In 6+ years of doing shows, I've never had a crash. AND I was running dj software for the first 5 of those years on the same pc, at the same time. Usually, if the software is stable, then the platform will be fine. If the software isn't, then there's nothing you can do. It will crash.

[jfitzpat]

RTLinux is real time and commercial. Just throwin that out there... (its also available non commercially)

Sorry to be anal, but RTLinux is more of a micro kernel than an operating system. Although it is not as feature rich, it had threading and interrupt management which is similiar to Kadak's AMX (best known as the micro kernal under PalmOS, at least on all the original 68K derivitive basd palm pilot type devices). It certainly would be a big help for someone doing certain types of real time, interrupt intensive, hardware support. However, I'm not sure it would be all that helpful for many DMX controllers.

The problem is that Linux proper then runs as a single, low priority RTLinux thread (the Linux, psuedo posix, thread system then runs under the single RTLinux thread). So a lot of the reasons that a desktop OS is often selected (I want to use the sockets implementation to talk ArtNet, I want to use an existing USB stack to talk to hardware, etc...) are not really accessible to the more robust, pre-emptive RTLinux threads - since you have to use data exchange (fifo, shared memory, etc.) and syncronization to get the data into the low priority Linux thread which, in turn, will handle the requests with the same priority and latency as if RTLinux was not there.

To me, it is also something of an irony that the commercial implementation has been acquired by Wind River. I think it was Wind River's pricing and licensing policies for VxWorks that sent so many companies to Linux for embedded applications in the first place.

-jjf

[Radman]

Makes sense. I'm really interested in console development, hardware and software. I'm considering attempting to go into that field. I don't know much yet, but like I said, very interested.

[SteveB]

I've had six crashes on my Windows XP embedded Congo since September; that's crashes, as in everything locks up & you reboot the console. ETC thinks some of these were software issues, but they can't recreate & identify the cause of most of them, despite having the show & log files. Whether it is a software or hardware issue really doesn't matter to me, I just need a reliable lighting controller and the Congo (unfortunately) has not proven to be reliable for me.

OK, you've had crashes. But is it the Congo software that's causing the crashes, or the OS ?. Chances are, given the newness of Congo, that there lies the problem, which might well has nothing to do with the OS.

I've been using an XP embedded Emphasis system for 8 mos. with no burps, re-boots or crashes of any kind. Go figure, as I suspect Emphasis would be full of bugs as ETC essentially stopped any further upgrades. I also suspect that additional experiences with the assorted Congo versions will give ETC and the AVAB developers additional data that will make your crashes go away.

Steve B.

[Van]

but RTLinux is more of a micro kernel than an operating system.
-jjf

Hey I had Micro Kernals for Breakfast this morning ! They're Tasty and don't lose their crunch in milk.

[jfitzpat]

Hey I had Micro Kernals for Breakfast this morning ! They're Tasty and don't lose their crunch in milk.

Come on, I apologized up front - I'm anal about technical matters.

Radman: Feel free to ask whatever you want. Rather it is math for split dipless or an interrupt handler for an AVR, I've always been happy to share whatever help I can.

-jjf

[Pie4Weebl]

Hey I had Micro Kernals for Breakfast this morning ! They're Tasty and don't lose their crunch in milk.

and you win the thread.