Jands Event 416

[tomed101]

Our school is looking at applying for a grant to get a new console, a few movers and possibly a new dimmer and some conventionals. We have successfully done this in the past for things like the new grand piano etc.

I am looking at the 416 because it seems to be a great mix for us because we use mostly conventionals and if we get the grant, 4-8 movers. Originally I was looking at the Hog 1000 but that is very "mover orientated" and I like to mix with a fader per channel for conventionals, and the 1000 only has the 16 master faders. Does anyone have any experience with the 416, and if so is it good/bad.
Also what recommendations do you have for some relatively cheap (or not so cheap) movers?

Tom

[lamphead]

I think you would find one of the Strand desks to your liking. They are based on the "Horizon" operating system.

http://rpd06.tempdomainname.com/rpd0...egory=Controls

http://www.rosco.com/us/lightingcontrol/horizon.asp

[soundlight]

The Jands Event 416 or the Compulite D-lite would be good picks here.

I don't know how many of the US cheap moving light brands are available down under, but here's my mover recommendations.

Cheap(ish) Movers:
Vari-Lite VL1000TSD or TID model for more theatrical type stuff (my one big name mover)
Elation Design Spot 575E

Cheap(er):
Chauvet Q-spot 575
AMDJ Accu Spot 575
Chauvet Legend series
Elation Design Spot 250 (best in this category)

Pretty Dern Cheap:
Elation Focus Spot 250R (great little unit, by the way)
AMDJ Cheap ****
Chauvet Cheap ****
Other Brands' Cheap ****

I would go with something like 4 VL1000TSD's, because they are tungsten units, and are also built like a tank.

[tomed101]

Thanks for the suggestions. I like the look of the Compulite D-lite's but not so much the two lamphead suggested, mostly because I like the fader per channel of dimming I use. If I can make it work, id like to get a few Vari-Lite's. The Gambling grants are usually fairly generous if you word the application right.

[icewolf08]

Thanks for the suggestions. I like the look of the Compulite D-lite's but not so much the two lamphead suggested, mostly because I like the fader per channel of dimming I use. If I can make it work, id like to get a few Vari-Lite's. The Gambling grants are usually fairly generous if you word the application right.

If you like the console that lamphead suggested, and you think that there is going to be good money, I would look into the Strand Light Palette Live as opposed to the Classic Palette. It has more faders and a better physical ML package. They are both based on the same software.

I think it is interesting the categories that soundlight has tossed some of the MLs into. It may be just me, but I wouldn't list a VL1000 as cheap. Less expensive I suppose, but compared to many of the other fixtures on that list it certainly is not a cheap fixture, and probably the most expensive on the list. Other fixtures you might look into:
•the Elation Powerspot 700, relatively new, but I own a pair and they work great, reliable, fast, and bright.
•the ETC Source 4 Revolution, people here b**ch about them, but when all is said and done, for the price they really aren't bad fixtures. The don't have the feature set that the VL1000 has, but they are modular and easy to learn and work with in a school setting. As long as you take care of them (as with any ML) they should work just fine. Plus, now they feature a Wybron scroller which should be very nice.

[gafftaper]

Personally I'm a little affraid of Jands. It's better than a lot of other options but it's just not an ETC or Strand console. So if your budget can stretch into the $10,000+ range I would look seriously at ETC/Strand.

One of the new strand Consoles might be a great solution. The Light Palette live has a starting list price around
$35,000 if I remember right, so you might want to stick with one of the lower end models. They all have the same software, it's just a matter of if it has designated buttons or if you have to access the control by mouse/keyboard short cut.

ETC Congo Jr. with the submaster wing is a great option as well. It's got a lot of moving light power for under $15,000

ETC Smart Fade ML is another new interesting product to consider.

Also remember we are only a few months away from ETC's ION being released. It's supposedly a shrunk down version of EOS. It might be worth waiting until the Fall to get a good look at that as it should be very conventional and moving light friendly.

If you are talking theater aplications, it makes a lot of sense to go for either: VL 1000, S4 Revolution, or Mac T1W. All three are tungesten lamps so they will blend in nicely with your existing instruments.

Last thing to consider. Why do you REALLY want the moving lights? How often will you really use them? Or is it really just to have a toy that moves? How many shows do you do that really call for a moving light? Can you satisfy that need by renting an I-cue or Apollo Right Arm instead? What about taking that money and investing in Seachangers to add color mixing to your existing Source4 inventory. If you need a moving light for a show rent it. Seachangers are far more practical than moving lights for the vast majority of theater uses... and at about $1700 each you can afford more of them. Remember the average life on most of the moving lights listed is only around 300 hours so you'll have to spend about $100 per moving light per year just to keep them working. A Seachanger in a Source4 with long life bulbs... it'll be a couple years until you have to replace that $20 lamp.

Finally, do some searching: Congo, new Strand consoles, which console should I buy, Seachangers, low end moving lights, VL1000, Revoltuion. All of these have been discussed in the past, some in extensive detail.

[tomed101]

Last thing to consider. Why do you REALLY want the moving lights? How often will you really use them? Or is it really just to have a toy that moves? How many shows do you do that really call for a moving light? Can you satisfy that need by renting an I-cue or Apollo Right Arm instead? What about taking that money and investing in Seachangers to add color mixing to your existing Source4 inventory. If you need a moving light for a show rent it. Seachangers are far more practical than moving lights for the vast majority of theater uses... and at about $1700 each you can afford more of them. Remember the average life on most of the moving lights listed is only around 300 hours so you'll have to spend about $100 per moving light per year just to keep them working. A Seachanger in a Source4 with long life bulbs... it'll be a couple years until you have to replace that $20 lamp.
Finally, do some searching: Congo, new Strand consoles, which console should I buy, Seachangers, low end moving lights, VL1000, Revoltuion. All of these have been discussed in the past, some in extensive detail.

All great points, and thankyou to all who contributed.

There seems to be a misconception here that this is a theatrical setting. Our school is in fact very musically orientated, and these lights will be used for these concerts. Last year we performed at a large outdoor concert with some big name artists and the HOD fell in love with movers and we only now have the opportunity to apply for a grant to buy some. The lighting company at the outdoor concert managed to get some amazing effects with 6 movers in varying shades of blue with various gobos on the choir (270 members). Also regarding the point as to how often we will need them, probably every three weeks for the gigs and much more often than that for the various tech-runs etc.

In total, the maximum we can apply for in the grant is $30,000AUD which is about $25,000USD I have emailed a few local dealers of lighting equipment asking for price lists to get me into the general area of how much these things cost, and if and when we get the grant, we could get them a bit cheaper and get a few extra bits/bulbs/accessories etc.

[soundlight]

Speaking as someone who recently finished high school, I can say that I would have really liked to work with a few movers in high school. I also don't believe in arc lamps for high schools, so that's why I reccomended the VL1000TSD as my first choice in the mid-range mover market. Now that you mention it, the ETC S4 Revolution would be a good option, especially with the wybron scroller. However, if you can get the money, 4 VL1000 TSD's or TID's would be amazing for you. I'd personally reccomend the TID's, because I'd use an iris much more than I would shutters with moving lights.

I would really look in to the Compulite D-lite for a console. I've done a whole lot of research in to it, and it's a very advanced console for it's price (well under $10K USD for the 36/72 model). It has a better featureset and moving light control than the Jands Event, and it also has a nice touchscreen for moving light control, which makes it much, much easier (that's what the screen built in to the upper right of the console is).

Either that, or *has excellent idea* the LSC MAXIM! Excellent console, and it's from folks down under! Not nearly as advanced as the Compulite D-lite, but great console for a school. Get the 36/72 (size L) model with the PatPad if you can afford it, you WILL NOT regret it. One user on these forums has this console at their school, I forget who it is, but they love it. It's very easy to use in terms of ML control, even though it doesn't have a conventional keypad. The control structure is very well layed out and quite easy to use. The only drawback is that lack of the conventional control keypad. But the ML control and channel-per-fader control is there.

In addition to all of that, however, put some DMX toys in your grant. Some gobo rotators, I-Cues or Right Arms, some scrollers, and some DMX irises. A fixture with an I-Cue and a DMX Iris is basically a mover that you can use for theater shows that is very quiet, easy to control via faders, and is based on a regular fixture (S4 ERS).

Basically, think of things in two ways: 1, you want to make your shows look good. 2, you want to be able to use the lighting to gain experience with the current offerings in controllable lighting. I know that I'd much rather have 4 movers, 4 i-cues, 4 dmx irises, some DMX rotators, and 8 or so scrollers than 8 movers in an educational setting. This allows for students to learn a whole lot more.

Aha! Now I'ma gonna edit again!

Here's my final recommendation for what you should put in the grant:
Compulite D-lite 36/72 (or 48/96 depending on how many dimmers you have - you want to have more faders than dimmers to control other attributes and toys) (~8K USD)
4 VL1000TID fixtures (~20K-30K USD??)
4 I-Cues (~2200 USD)
4 DMX Irises & Power Supplies (~2500)
4 DMX Dual Gobo Roators (~2000 USD)
8 Apollo SmartColor 7.5" Scrollers (for S4 Par's or S4 Zooms - include S4 Par's in budget if you don't have them) (~2400 USD)
I-Cue & Scroller Power Supply, 400W Smart Power (~750 USD)
2 Gam FilmFX units (~$1400 USD)

Now that's a whopper of a grant for you. Good luck!

[tomed101]

Wow ok thats some great info. I think I might need to drop the VL1000's for something a bit cheaper because they will eat up my grant alone without even getting the console. I didn't realize quite how expensive they were. Does anyone know of any websites that have a comprehensive price list for lighting gear? Prices in AUD would be good but anything would help for me to get an idea of prices.

Thanks again for the info

[Charc]

Speaking as someone who recently finished high school, I can say that I would have really liked to work with a few movers in high school. I also don't believe in arc lamps for high schools, so that's why I reccomended the VL1000TSD as my first choice in the mid-range mover market. Now that you mention it, the ETC S4 Revolution would be a good option, especially with the wybron scroller. However, if you can get the money, 4 VL1000 TSD's or TID's would be amazing for you. I'd personally reccomend the TID's, because I'd use an iris much more than I would shutters with moving lights.
I would really look in to the Compulite D-lite for a console. I've done a whole lot of research in to it, and it's a very advanced console for it's price (well under $10K USD for the 36/72 model). It has a better featureset and moving light control than the Jands Event, and it also has a nice touchscreen for moving light control, which makes it much, much easier (that's what the screen built in to the upper right of the console is).
Either that, or *has excellent idea* the LSC MAXIM! Excellent console, and it's from folks down under! Not nearly as advanced as the Compulite D-lite, but great console for a school. Get the 36/72 (size L) model with the PatPad if you can afford it, you WILL NOT regret it. One user on these forums has this console at their school, I forget who it is, but they love it. It's very easy to use in terms of ML control, even though it doesn't have a conventional keypad. The control structure is very well layed out and quite easy to use. The only drawback is that lack of the conventional control keypad. But the ML control and channel-per-fader control is there.
In addition to all of that, however, put some DMX toys in your grant. Some gobo rotators, I-Cues or Right Arms, some scrollers, and some DMX irises. A fixture with an I-Cue and a DMX Iris is basically a mover that you can use for theater shows that is very quiet, easy to control via faders, and is based on a regular fixture (S4 ERS).
Basically, think of things in two ways: 1, you want to make your shows look good. 2, you want to be able to use the lighting to gain experience with the current offerings in controllable lighting. I know that I'd much rather have 4 movers, 4 i-cues, 4 dmx irises, some DMX rotators, and 8 or so scrollers than 8 movers in an educational setting. This allows for students to learn a whole lot more.
Aha! Now I'ma gonna edit again!
Here's my final recommendation for what you should put in the grant:
Compulite D-lite 36/72 (or 48/96 depending on how many dimmers you have - you want to have more faders than dimmers to control other attributes and toys) (~8K USD)
4 VL1000TID fixtures (~20K-30K USD??)
4 I-Cues (~2200 USD)
4 DMX Irises & Power Supplies (~2500)
4 DMX Dual Gobo Roators (~2000 USD)
8 Apollo SmartColor 7.5" Scrollers (for S4 Par's or S4 Zooms - include S4 Par's in budget if you don't have them) (~2400 USD)
I-Cue & Scroller Power Supply, 400W Smart Power (~750 USD)
2 Gam FilmFX units (~$1400 USD)
Now that's a whopper of a grant for you. Good luck!

Just curious, since I don't know, what is so great about a DMX iris? I know I have tunnel vision, and little experience, but I can't conceive of a situation where that might be useful. I mean, I'd rather buy a seachanger, or Right Arm.

[gafftaper]

With that added information I would look at ways to put most of your money into movers and less into the control console. Ways to do that: the ETC Smart Fade ML or one of the PC based products like Horizon, Maxxyz, or Hogpc. All of these are good moving light controlers that you should be able to purchase for a around $2000-$3000 leaving you around 90% for the movers.

p.s. Don't forget to budget for cable, it ads up quickly.

[tomed101]

With that added information I would look at ways to put most of your money into movers and less into the control console. Ways to do that: the ETC Smart Fade ML or one of the PC based products like Horizon, Maxxyz, or Hogpc. All of these are good moving light controlers that you should be able to purchase for a around $2000-$3000 leaving you around 90% for the movers.
p.s. Don't forget to budget for cable, it ads up quickly.

On the subject of cable, do movers need 5pin DMX or 3pin DMX? If it only needs 3pin then we are in luck because we have a DMX strobe that takes 3pin and we have a lead going up to the main truss and the movers would all be relatively close to the strobe so I could just do a loop through to each fixture.

[icewolf08]

On the subject of cable, do movers need 5pin DMX or 3pin DMX? If it only needs 3pin then we are in luck because we have a DMX strobe that takes 3pin and we have a lead going up to the main truss and the movers would all be relatively close to the strobe so I could just do a loop through to each fixture.

It depends on the fixture. The Revolutions, VLs and most of the newer fixtures have 5 pin connectors. Most of the new Martin fixtures have both 3 and 5 pin. The Elation fixtures have 3-pin. So you would have to look at the specs for the fixtures you are interested in.

[soundlight]

Just curious, since I don't know, what is so great about a DMX iris? I know I have tunnel vision, and little experience, but I can't conceive of a situation where that might be useful. I mean, I'd rather buy a seachanger, or Right Arm.

Ahh...going back a few posts in this thread...the DMX iris is great because it means that your i-cue special can change size. This is very valuable when you have to have really tight specials and really wide specials.

[Logos]

Given that many of the items suggested are one hell of a lot more expensive here than in the US you may have trouble getting a grant for all that. If you're prepared to look at budget gear here try the ULA website or the soundivision website or the prolite website. Most of this gear is cheap and cheerfull but it works.

[jonhirsh]

Doesnt really mater if its 3pin or 5 because they make adapters.

[gafftaper]

Ahh...going back a few posts in this thread...the DMX iris is great because it means that your i-cue special can change size. This is very valuable when you have to have really tight specials and really wide specials.

Also if you are using them for concert lighting then there lots of cool lighting effects you can do with zooming the iris.

[gafftaper]

Doesnt really mater if its 3pin or 5 because they make adapters.

If they are like most schools, spending $50 on a bunch DMX adapters may be difficult.

[lamphead]

You can make your own 3 to 5 pin cables. For more info on DMX in general check out this site.
http://www.dmx512-online.com/

[Charc]

Ahh...going back a few posts in this thread...the DMX iris is great because it means that your i-cue special can change size. This is very valuable when you have to have really tight specials and really wide specials.

Ah I never thought of using it in conjunction with an I-Cue; ingenious! I say, an I-cue/right arm, with a scroller, a dmx iris, and dmx gobo rotatar would be quite a nice little alternative to a moving light, plus you can switch out and change parts as you like, hmmm.

[soundlight]

Ah I never thought of using it in conjunction with an I-Cue; ingenious! I say, an I-cue/right arm, with a scroller, a dmx iris, and dmx gobo rotatar would be quite a nice little alternative to a moving light, plus you can switch out and change parts as you like, hmmm.

The DMX iris fits in the iris slot, same place where gobo rotators go, so that wouldn't be possible.

Also, if you put a scroller and an i-cue on a fixture, you have to have a narrow beam so that it's still small enough to be completely reflected by the i-cue mirror, because the scroller adds more distance between the i-cue mirror and the lens tube, so the beam has more time to spread, possibly allowing the edges of the beam to pass around the i-cue. You also have to have special scroller plates on the front of your scrollers, and most don't have this. However, a seachanger in an i-cue fixture with a DMX iris would be great.

The only way to use a scroller with this type of thing would be to use it with a right arm instead of an i-cue.

[gafftaper]

Ah I never thought of using it in conjunction with an I-Cue; ingenious! I say, an I-cue/right arm, with a scroller, a dmx iris, and dmx gobo rotatar would be quite a nice little alternative to a moving light, plus you can switch out and change parts as you like, hmmm.

Yeah Charc, as Soundlight just pointed out, you can't really do all of them at once. But you definitely have the idea. How often in a standard theater application do you need all of the features of a $5000+ intelligent light? Most of the time having just a rotator, I-cue/right arm, scroller/seachanger, or a dmx iris will do the trick. I would advise anyone in a high school theater (who isn't trying to use them for music like this thread wants to) to spend 20 grand on a few of each of those devices before they go out and start investing in movers. Also educationally they aren't quite as complicated as a mover but you still learn the same patching and programing skills as a mover.

[soundlight]

I think that for a high school, it's good to get some dmx toys (2 i-cues, 2 dmx irises, 4 dmx rotators, and maybe some Smart Color scrollers, 8 or 10 is usually a good number), 2 filmFX units, and then 2 or 4 really basic movers - the Elation Focus Spot 250R (at a reasonable $1000USD) is my favorite to recommend - and also get a console that will train them for the real world. This provides the widest educational experience by getting your feet wet in everything.

This way, you can get a full 10-fixture overhead scroller wash, 2 uber-specials that have irises and i-cues, and you can have a warm in one and a cool in the other, or put them in two different locations for different angles of specials. You can also have 4 50-degree fixtures as a frontlight or backlight rotating gobo wash. This works well for almost any dance show, as well as for many plays. Rotating gobos can also add a whole lot of effects to plays.

I have two philosophies on consoles. Philosophy one is that you should get a console that is a dead-on industry standard (etc express, expression, used obsession; strand 300 or 500 series, palette). Philosophy two (which I like better) is that you should get a console that is not an industry standard so that you have to learn how to use it from the ground up. Getting a console that is not an industry standard (Compulite Dlite, LSC maXim) allows you to learn how to deconstruct console logic and figure out how it works, allowing you to apply this to any other new console that you have to figure out without assistance. You will generally be able to get experience on the standard consoles through other local venues and programs.

[beam_1973]

I am looking at the 416 because it seems to be a great mix for us because we use mostly conventionals and if we get the grant, 4-8 movers. Originally I was looking at the Hog 1000 but that is very "mover orientated" and I like to mix with a fader per channel for conventionals, and the 1000 only has the 16 master faders. Does anyone have any experience with the 416, and if so is it good/bad.
Also what recommendations do you have for some relatively cheap (or not so cheap) movers?
Tom

I've used the 408 and 416 and yeah, not to bad. I'd like to add another one into the mix as well ... the LSC Maxim MP ... I find the PatPad is really user friendly for moving fixtures, and in scene mode, you effectively get 9 pages of 24 Assign faders (on a 24/48 console).

As for budget on the movers, are you only looking at yokes or mirrors as well??

Cheers
Craig

[Sean]

I have two philosophies on consoles. Philosophy one is that you should get a console that is a dead-on industry standard (etc express, expression, used obsession; strand 300 or 500 series, palette). Philosophy two (which I like better) is that you should get a console that is not an industry standard so that you have to learn how to use it from the ground up. Getting a console that is not an industry standard (Compulite Dlite, LSC maXim) allows you to learn how to deconstruct console logic and figure out how it works, allowing you to apply this to any other new console that you have to figure out without assistance. You will generally be able to get experience on the standard consoles through other local venues and programs.

I have to comment on this. I believe very strongly that in an educational setting using gear that is the same or as close to what one would encounter in the "real world" is key. When you sit down at a board for the first time you have to learn it. How does it being "not industry standard" make that experience any better? Really, all it means is you develop a skill set that isn't as useable outside your particular venue. In a PC/Mac world would you have students work on Amiga machines just so they learn "something else"?

You also mention Apollo scrollers. I'm curious as to why. I've been working professionally for almost 10 years and have yet to see any Apollo scrollers, other than at product demos/LDI. And this is across many venues and environments.

In terms of other gear that shows up in schools, but not much in the "real world," I've never, or only occasionally seen:

Any conventional console other than ETC or Strand (Colortran Encores a few times, but that was 9 years ago). And not many Strand at all.
Strand SL's
Non-Wybron scrollers (other than a couple Chroma-Q's)
Altman Shakespeares
Anything made by Behringer
Any "non-PAR" PAR other than Source-Four PARs
Moving lights made by anyone other than: Martin, VL, Highend, ETC, Clay Paky
Source-Four Juniors
Anything make by Lehigh Electric
Anything made by NSI
Anything made by Leviton


I know it isn't always good to "follow the herd," but for those of you tasked with selecting gear for educational institutions: buy the gear that's being used. It will make the students' experiences that much more useful to them when they leave, and make supporting the gear easier for you.

And whoever out there is still requesting 360Q's (yes, they are still being sold) ought to be shot.

My $.02.

--Sean

[soundlight]

Apollo SmartColor scrollers are excellent. Very, very low noise, very little need to re-align the gel strings, and good stock gel strings. We've got 12 of them at the college that I'm going to, and the work a whole lot better than our Chroma-Q's in terms of reliability, noise, and gel string alignment retention.

And about my weird console philosophy - on all of the standard consoles, there's usually someone who can teach it to you nice and easy. I learned how to use the express from someone else in ten minutes flat. I could record cues, subs, groups, effects; set times, waits, follows, etc for cues; I could assign effects to subs, set properties of subs, etc. And the only console that I'd ever worked on before was a Lightronics Crapbox 5000X SOL. I also know for a fact that it would have taken me alot longer to learn all of that by the manual.

And I wouldn't reccomend just plopping any no-name console in a school. I've done very extensive research (everything short of actually using it) on the Compulite D-lite, as I really like it as a viable competitor in terms of ML functions, fader-per-channel allocations, and ease of use to the ETC Express. Compulite is usually known for their Vector series of consoles, which go out on alot of big tours. Bryan Hartley uses a Vector Red linked to a Vector Blue and a timecode feed for TSO. However, in my opinion, this nice little product of theirs is an undiscovered gem. I'm sure that most of you have barely scratched the surface on what it is and what it is capable of. In short, I don't recommend things haphazardly. For instance, I wouldn't recommend one of the new Leviton consoles, because I don't know enough about them, but I do know that they're just a buyout of another company that no one knows about. I wouldn't reccomend an NSI console because the manual tries to set you chasing your tail and using their larger consoles (Melange, MC-2448) is not a fun experience. Also, if the real world doesn't have quite a few of them out there, why is Compulite still making them as a product?

Also, I am far from the first to mention the LSC consoles. They've been mentioned by a few folks here, and they're making significant headway in the US market now. Applied NN (da folks who make Applied trussing & towers) and All Pro Sound (retailer and installer based in Florida) are the folks behind this effort, and the console is really an excellent console, and it's easy to use.

And no, I wouldn't have them work on Amiga machines, but rather Sun/Unix/Linux machines, to get used to working on other platforms, but they'd also work on macs and PC's. I made a point of doing that myself, and it weirdly ended up helping me understand more console programming logic.

Just like I think that if your school doesn't have an ETC or strand, you should make a point of working at/volunteering for venues that do.

I usually live in the niche environments of the real world, but I've seen old manual boards, Lightronics boards, NSI boards, and Colortran boards in quite a few real world locations. I've also seen shakespeares and SL's in real world locations. But this thread is not a place to have a battle over those!!!!

Also, in college, I made a point of digging out the old LP-90 to use for a student showcase show just so that I got experience on it, and could add another board to my resume.

However, I do see your point on the board philosophy. I wouldn't make the students work on just sun/unix machines, I'd have them work on all platforms. So, basically, if you don't use an express/expression/obsession/newer strand board in another venue, then get an express. If you do, then get something different, but still just as easy to learn. But, as I also mentioned, why would Compulite, an amazing console designer and manufacturer, be making the Dlite if no one was gonna buy it??

Dern, that was a long post!

[Sean]

Apollo SmartColor scrollers are excellent. Very, very low noise, very little need to re-align the gel strings, and good stock gel strings. We've got 12 of them at the college that I'm going to, and the work a whole lot better than our Chroma-Q's in terms of reliability, noise, and gel string alignment retention.

I never said anything about the quality of Apollo scrollers. The stuff I've seen from Apollo has all been decent. They are not, however, widely used. I do have to question the "stock gel" comment. Who cares what the stock string is? Order your own.

Yes, the Chroma-Q's are pretty crappy.

And I wouldn't reccomend just plopping any no-name console in a school. I've done very extensive research (everything short of actually using it) on the Compulite D-lite, as I really like it as a viable competitor in terms of ML functions, fader-per-channel allocations, and ease of use to the ETC Express. Compulite is usually known for their Vector series of consoles, which go out on alot of big tours. Bryan Hartley uses a Vector Red linked to a Vector Blue and a timecode feed for TSO. However, in my opinion, this nice little product of theirs is an undiscovered gem.

That's fine. I know I'm a "few years" out of school, but really, how many movers vs. conventionals does a typical academic theatre have (HS and college)?
Every product is going to have a "someone" that uses it. Do you know if Bryan actually CHOSE that console? Or was it some deal that got the producer a cheap deal, and he was told to use it? That's the way these things often work. For every show out with a Compulite, I'd wager there are ten out with a GrandMA or Hog. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the product at all. It does mean, however, that the student will most likely not see that board....possibly ever...when he/she gets out of school.

Also, if the real world doesn't have quite a few of them out there, why is Compulite still making them as a product?

Because a LOT of projects, especially lower-end and "non-tenant" projects (things like a performing arts center that's being built without a resident company--often the people footing the money for these projects do not hire a real technical staff until the project is well under way....or nearly completed) bid projects as "complete packages". This means the dimmers, distribution, and control are all bid as a single price from manufacturers. That's why there are so many schools in the OH/PA/Western NY with Lehigh Electric systems. Specs often read like the product cut-sheets. "1024+ DMX channels," "network ready," etc. As long as a company has a product that meets the same SPECS as the project, they're considered an EQUAL product by the General Contractor. If the lighting products are in Division 11 (electrical) of the project instead of Division 16 (Special equipment, or something like that), then the GC and the Electrical contractor can decide which products to purchase. This decision is often contractually not required to be approved by the OWNER. The GC bids the project, so if a product meets spec and is $2,000 cheaper, then he/she just made a $2,000 profit. Also, and probably more important here: There are often significant "encouragments" to use local/domestic products. Compulite is in Israel. I'm sure they sell a lot of gear there. Just like Strand sells a LOT of stuff in the UK, but less (proportionally) in the US.

Also, I am far from the first to mention the LSC consoles. They've been mentioned by a few folks here, and they're making significant headway in the US market now.

Really? Where? They have one North American Distributer. One.

Also, in college, I made a point of digging out the old LP-90 to use for a student showcase show just so that I got experience on it, and could add another board to my resume.

The root of much of the last 20 years of tracking console thought--the LP. That was a good decision on your part. Now, the Obsession should mostly make sense to you.

So, basically, if you don't use an express/expression/obsession/newer strand board in another venue, then get an express. If you do, then get something different, but still just as easy to learn.

Remember, as the person spec'ing gear, you have little-to-no control over what other consoles the students will go out and discover. Make the "widest net" choice. Look at it a different way: if you have an Express, and the student goes to another space that also has one he/she will now be "THE person" that knows about the board. A huge confidence boost.

Wow, I should go to bed. I'm beat!

--Sean

[soundlight]

Hmmm...don't want to take over the whole thread, this could go on forever, so I'll just briefly counter everything in a list

~Wasn't saying that you said the apollo scrollers were bad, just sticking up for them to people who hadn't heard of them. Also, what GC orders a custom string for a high school job? It's a theater. They are having someone spec scrollers for them. Are they gonna go for a custom or stock gel string?
~Unless they pay him to tell people that come down to meet him at concerts after the show that he prefers the Compulite, then he does prefer it.
~GC's have been screwing theatre's over for years, tis true. Lehigh electric is possibly the perfect example. Local company, low sales compared to some others, so they catch the high school market around them! But I haven't heard of many Compulite dimmers in the US!
~Point taken 'bout foreign console sales. I did know that Compulite was in Israel, but I didn't fully process that.
~And with that: by significant headway I mean this: there was a rather large article about it (probably payed for by either AppliedNN or All Pro Sound) about APS putting alot of maXims in churches in the southeast. They're a huge installer for churches (that's their main gig), and also sell the consoles on their site. The other thing that I mean by major headway is that they're actually available on many retail sites now. Before applied took the contract to be the sole US distributor, they really weren't available in the US. But, since the person who posted this thread is in Australia, there shouldn't be a problem.

This is fun!

[tomed101]

I've used the 408 and 416 and yeah, not to bad. I'd like to add another one into the mix as well ... the LSC Maxim MP ... I find the PatPad is really user friendly for moving fixtures, and in scene mode, you effectively get 9 pages of 24 Assign faders (on a 24/48 console).
As for budget on the movers, are you only looking at yokes or mirrors as well??
Cheers
Craig

I am thinking yokes. I need a fair bit of power and maneuverability. How do mirrors perform in terms of light output, focusability and color?

[icewolf08]

I am thinking yokes. I need a fair bit of power and maneuverability. How do mirrors perform in terms of light output, focusability and color?

I haven't really looked at mirror/scanner fixtures in a while, but from what I remember, the ones that have high outputs and decent effects packages are on the same price level as many of the low to mid-range moving heads. Take the Martin 918 for example, it's guts are exactly the same as the Mac 500 but they stuck a mirror on it instead of a yoke.

Scanners can be useful. They are generally faster as they have less to move. They don't have quite as much space requirements as they don't move, and they are often quieter. You can get scanners that have basically the same feature set as a moving head. You just need to think about where and how you hang them so that you can hit everywhere you want to.

[soundlight]

The reason that scanners have left the high end market for many touring applications is that they are harder to repeatably focus. With a moving head, you just hang it straight down. With scanners, it's usually a matter of aligning the yoke to the body at a specific angle.

However, for some school applications, they're great, especially because they generally cost less. I just generally like heads for most shows, but for shows that need really quick movement and fast effects, scanners are great. They generally also have a smaller range of movement, so if they have good stepper motors, scanners are usually more accurate if the yokes are tight and won't slip.

The Martin 918 is a rock solid unit, and has a great set of features.

[beam_1973]

I am thinking yokes. I need a fair bit of power and maneuverability. How do mirrors perform in terms of light output, focusability and color?

Light output - yes, they can be comparable, provided you are comparing similarly lamped fixtures.
Focusability - both can be motorised if thats what you mean, otherwise, only issue with a mirror is having to get the bodies orientated with other mirrors to keep home positions and general focus points easily aligned.
Colour - again, back to how each fixture is lamped (and associated colour temperature) and how the colour is generated (similar dichroic filters, CMY etc).

As an example, Mac 250 Krypton (head) is very similar to Mac MX-10 (mirror) while the Mac 250 Entour is same lamp just additional features like more gobos, bout overall output is similar. The MX10 just gets the beam from Point A to Point B faster but obviously doesnt have the same pan/tilt capabilty that the 250's do.

I haven't really looked at mirror/scanner fixtures in a while, but from what I remember, the ones that have high outputs and decent effects packages are on the same price level as many of the low to mid-range moving heads.

Yeah ... it would cost me the same to hire in MX-10's as it would to hire in 250's. Recently, I have been using some inhouse ClayPaky HPE Miniscans (lamped with 300w HTI's). Output is OK but can get lost a bit in the PAR56 washes sometimes (and the gobos can be a little boring). Just a matter of having to clean two external areas of haze/dust residues on the scanners(lense and mirror) rather than just the lense of the yokes. Only other hassle on the HPE's is non-motorised focus (but I think the new model HP3 has overcome this) ... but otherwise, movement and speed is plenty for what I need.