Moving Fixtures for a Theatre

[wctctech]

Good Day all,

We are currently looking at purchasing some moving fixtures for my theatre. It is a community road house managed by a professional producing Theatre company. The theatre is rented out for about 80% of the year and it sees a variety of shows. Live concerts to professional theatre shows. The push for movers comes from a number of areas. From me wanting to add that pizzaz to our shows (we are doing disneys Beauty this year for example) and the push also comes from the road shows asking what do you have for movers. To which we say errr arrgh nothing. We have demo'd a few units. My first inclination for to look for wash fixtures so we demo's a Martin TW-1 and a VL 500. I like the tuungsten fixtures for sure. Our thought was that the theatre show and day to day we could use the wash fixtures as our topwash. Reduce the number of instruments hung and speed up our turnarounds. But after talking as a group the TD of the space, my technicians and anyone that came through, we realized that a purely wash fixture may not be the best use of our money. It was suggested to look at a couple of other fixture the VL 1000 with shutters came up and I like the idea, but also we were suggested to look at the martin 700 profile although they are arc source. So all that being said, and opening the can of worms I just have, what do you have to say. Who have used these fixtures and what do you prefer.

Chris

[icewolf08]

Well, first off, there are dozens of threads on this, use the search feature. Next, what is your budget for this, and what do you want to be able to do with the fixtures? I assume you must have a pretty large budget if you were thinking about purchasing a bunch of TW1'a or VL500s. If you are on a tight budget and need spot fixtures, you might look at the ETC Revolution, the people in the music world will scoff at them, but for theatre applications they are good fixtures and you can get 3 of them for the price of 2 VL1000s. On the other hand, the VL1000 is a nice fixture and if you have the money you will get more features. I am sure others have more opinions, and like I said, search around a bit, because most of these fixtures have been discussed in other threads.

[jonhirsh]

Whats your throw, application, budget per fixture.

JH

[Footer]

Also, what are you using as your current lighting console. If it is anything made by etc that is not the EOS or Obsession, you might want to look at adding a new console into the budget.

[jmabray]

Also, what are you using as your current lighting console. If it is anything made by etc that is not the EOS or Obsession, you might want to look at adding a new console into the budget.

I would have to disagree with this. (as much as I like ETC, and I do) you don't necessarily need an ETC desk to do moving lights - nor does it have to be the EOS or the Obsession. You can also do it with the Congo, Congo Jr., and SmartFade ML (to speak only of the ETC Product line - there are numerous others)

I think that what footer means to say ( and correct me if I am wrong here) is that you might want to consider looking at a desk designed to be in control of moving lights- and he is very correct in saying that. It will make your life significantly better to do so if you do not already have a console to do that. Can you program moving lights on a standard theatre style desk (i.e. an express) Yes - would you really want to? No.

Do make sure that you look at your control needs - not only your moving light needs.

[gafftaper]

While we wait for answers to those other questions: Two quick notes...

-Robe makes a Tungsten Wash light.

-Martin may have plans for a Tungsten Profile in the near future. (A Martin rep at LDI last fall told me that it was very likely depending on how the TW1 sells).

[Grog12]

Well, first off, there are dozens of threads on this, use the search feature. Next, what is your budget for this, and what do you want to be able to do with the fixtures? I assume you must have a pretty large budget if you were thinking about purchasing a bunch of TW1'a or VL500s. If you are on a tight budget and need spot fixtures, you might look at the ETC Revolution, the people in the music world will scoff at them, but for theatre applications they are good fixtures and you can get 3 of them for the price of 2 VL1000s. On the other hand, the VL1000 is a nice fixture and if you have the money you will get more features. I am sure others have more opinions, and like I said, search around a bit, because most of these fixtures have been discussed in other threads.

Stay clear of the Revolution. It isn't worth your money. Sure you can get 3 for the price of 2 VL1K's but for that extra fixture you lose functionality because of their module's.

I would have to disagree with this. (as much as I like ETC, and I do) you don't necessarily need an ETC desk to do moving lights - nor does it have to be the EOS or the Obsession. You can also do it with the Congo, Congo Jr., and SmartFade ML (to speak only of the ETC Product line - there are numerous others)
I think that what footer means to say ( and correct me if I am wrong here) is that you might want to consider looking at a desk designed to be in control of moving lights- and he is very correct in saying that. It will make your life significantly better to do so if you do not already have a console to do that. Can you program moving lights on a standard theatre style desk (i.e. an express) Yes - would you really want to? No.
Do make sure that you look at your control needs - not only your moving light needs.

Buy a grand-MA make your life easy

[bslproductions]

for a road house the grandMA full edition (if you can budget it) and 8 to 12 robe colorspot 700 and colorwash 700 fixtures each would set you up for pretty much any small to mid sized show. You do need to look at profiles and washes, they each have their strengths and weekness's.

I prefer Robe when it comes to movers. They have all the same features as the Martin fixtures at a lower price and a higher quality. Robe used to make everyone else's fixtures for years. They just didn't advertize much till recently.

VL1000's are a great fixture, but you need more options than they afford for a road house.

[Footer]

I would have to disagree with this. (as much as I like ETC, and I do) you don't necessarily need an ETC desk to do moving lights - nor does it have to be the EOS or the Obsession. You can also do it with the Congo, Congo Jr., and SmartFade ML (to speak only of the ETC Product line - there are numerous others)

Odds are they do not have anything that ETC has put on in the last 2 years, if they have anything made by ETC at all. Because they are a road house, I am just guessing here, odds are they have either an ETC console or a strand console, and its not a congo, smartfade, smartfade ML, or any of their offsprings.

My feeling is that doing any type of intelligent light on an expression, insight, express, though doable, is the most infuriating process that a person can ever have.

If you are going to buy movers, take a look at your console and make sure it can actually handle it. If you need a new console be sure to bugdet it in.

[jmabray]

Well the Eos is even more recent the the congo.... ;-)

You're right about moving lights on an Express though - infuriating - an Expression 3 (or 2x) that has encoders - less so- but still not exactly a breeze.... especially compared to a console that is set up to do movers - like an EOS, Congo and the like. (Again there are other manufacturers out there that do nice products as well.)

But you are absolutely right in that they do need to take a look at the control situation and budget accordingly...

I will be very interested to see what s/he says that they already have for that...

[SteveB]

I'm in a similar situation - a road house that has many rentals, as well as in-house produced events.
We debated long over whether to purchase ANY kind of ML's - wash, focusable specials, or even SFX spots. We finally decided on 6 Studio Spot CMY/Zooms to give the in-house events some flashier looks for appropriate Vegas style events, at which they work very well. Note that the monies came from a NYC Arts Council grant. We also expanded our Express 48 with a 500 channel Emphasis system.
Our general manager is normally of the opinion that for any rental that wants the ML's they need to pay a supplemental rental fee. Of course, no outside renter wants to do this and after a year, those events wanting ML's brings their own, even though the SS's are hanging there, unused. Part of the problem was our production manager was doing simple math - Console Op. @ $300, Console @ $300, 5 - SS @ $50 ea., plus wear and tear, say $1,000 per day. Of course, I was laughed at when I suggested this fee to rentals. Thus we have never used them on a rental. Part of the problem is the console. To max. out my $50,000 I went with 8 fixtures, then had to give back $12,000, so ended up with 6, plus about $5,000 for a console with the stipulation that it not be a 2nd console, as we didn't want to have to hire a 2nd operator just for the ML's. Thus the Emphasis, which was a mistake. I probably should have gotten a Laptop, Light Jockey and a Fingers add-on, as Emphasis is a terrible on-the-fly ML console (I do like it for a lot of other things, though).
In reality, those events that want ML's, usually know in advance that they need them, via a rider, etc... and will provide the gear the rider calls for, HogIII, GrandMA, Martin 2k profiles, etc..., though we often get a couple of less-then-top-of-the-line rental packages that use Light Jockey with Fingers and Elation gear.
But for us, thus the whole concept of making money on the rentals is unworkable.
We do use the gear for our in-house events, where the producer paid for the gear, thus there's no fee for usage - Dionne Warwick, Freddie McGregor, Mandy Patinkin and similar events. All told, I think I put 300 hrs. on the fixtures last year.
We also found them useful for our college opera dept., but that's because the LD is our PM and he has fun (he designs as a freebie as well). I also insisted on using them for our 7 dance school recitals, even though the schools are supposed to pay for them. I insisted we had to give them away the first time, as none of the dance school directors would want to pay in advance, when they had no concept of how they would improve the show. In truth, I was able to make the case that instead of a major re-hang to a plot that works for dance schools (Lot's of cyc gobos), our rep. plot with the ML's could work, thus saving 2 electrics calls. The schools did love the look and excitement the ML's bring to the event, and all the schools were universally NOT going to pay extra for them next year.
So when the money comes around again, I'll buy gear that makes our life a bit easier. I'm not getting stuff that would get used for our 6-8 major dance companies, as they too are specific if they want something, and we always have the time and budget to rent and set it all up (or plan for time and budget in advance).
Probably some ML wash units, to save focus time on our Vegas style events, when Audio needs the deck time for set-up. Eventually a set of 30ft. front trusses with a lot of VL1000's to give us some decent FOH positions. And a new console - actually that's first on the list.
Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

[Footer]

I'm in a similar situation - a road house that has many rentals, as well as in-house produced events.
We debated long over whether to purchase ANY kind of ML's - wash, focusable specials, or even SFX spots. We finally decided on 6 Studio Spot CMY/Zooms to give the in-house events some flashier looks for appropriate Vegas style events, at which they work very well. Note that the monies came from a NYC Arts Council grant. We also expanded our Express 48 with a 500 channel Emphasis system.
Our general manager is normally of the opinion that for any rental that wants the ML's they need to pay a supplemental rental fee. Of course, no outside renter wants to do this and after a year, those events wanting ML's brings their own, even though the SS's are hanging there, unused. Part of the problem was our production manager was doing simple math - Console Op. @ $300, Console @ $300, 5 - SS @ $50 ea., plus wear and tear, say $1,000 per day. Of course, I was laughed at when I suggested this fee to rentals. Thus we have never used them on a rental. Part of the problem is the console. To max. out my $50,000 I went with 8 fixtures, then had to give back $12,000, so ended up with 6, plus about $5,000 for a console with the stipulation that it not be a 2nd console, as we didn't want to have to hire a 2nd operator just for the ML's. Thus the Emphasis, which was a mistake. I probably should have gotten a Laptop, Light Jockey and a Fingers add-on, as Emphasis is a terrible on-the-fly ML console (I do like it for a lot of other things, though).
In reality, those events that want ML's, usually know in advance that they need them, via a rider, etc... and will provide the gear the rider calls for, HogIII, GrandMA, Martin 2k profiles, etc..., though we often get a couple of less-then-top-of-the-line rental packages that use Light Jockey with Fingers and Elation gear.
But for us, thus the whole concept of making money on the rentals is unworkable.
We do use the gear for our in-house events, where the producer paid for the gear, thus there's no fee for usage - Dionne Warwick, Freddie McGregor, Mandy Patinkin and similar events. All told, I think I put 300 hrs. on the fixtures last year.
We also found them useful for our college opera dept., but that's because the LD is our PM and he has fun (he designs as a freebie as well). I also insisted on using them for our 7 dance school recitals, even though the schools are supposed to pay for them. I insisted we had to give them away the first time, as none of the dance school directors would want to pay in advance, when they had no concept of how they would improve the show. In truth, I was able to make the case that instead of a major re-hang to a plot that works for dance schools (Lot's of cyc gobos), our rep. plot with the ML's could work, thus saving 2 electrics calls. The schools did love the look and excitement the ML's bring to the event, and all the schools were universally NOT going to pay extra for them next year.
So when the money comes around again, I'll buy gear that makes our life a bit easier. I'm not getting stuff that would get used for our 6-8 major dance companies, as they too are specific if they want something, and we always have the time and budget to rent and set it all up (or plan for time and budget in advance).
Probably some ML wash units, to save focus time on our Vegas style events, when Audio needs the deck time for set-up. Eventually a set of 30ft. front trusses with a lot of VL1000's to give us some decent FOH positions. And a new console - actually that's first on the list.
Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

Very true, having just a handful of fixtures is great for a bit of flash, but in the long run, they are pretty useless. Unless you can actually replace an entire system with movers, you will find yourself using them less and less. Have an entire backlight/top of 10 or 15 movers is a very nice thing to have around.

[SAWYeR]

If you can look at other boards, try the Martin Maxxyz. Nice board, small, but full of features. It's also very easy to learn to use, very intuitive. As for the lights, Vari*Lite's VL1000s are great lights. 10-45 degree zoom, CMY color mixing plus two preset wheels, two static gobo wheels, one moving, and it has lots of options. These include Arc or Tungsten source lamp, motorized framing shutters or iris. The Tungsten w/ shutters turns it into Source 4, but with loads more to offer. The MAC 700 Profile is nice if yuo don't mind Arc source, along with the VL2500. Just mah two cents for you.

[stantonsound]

I would disagree with the statement that just a few movers are worthless. I worked in a club that has live music acts about 5 nights a week, with about 4,000 people a week average coming through the doors (not a very big club). We had a few dozen par cans, 4 lekos, and 10 movers. The movers made our jobs so much easier. We had 6 on the truss behind the bands, and 4 in front of the stage. We never had to focus the cans or lekos, we just adjusted the movers from the console. The pars give a great wash, and the movers provide the specials.

We are getting ready to put in some scrollers, and then we will have the versatility to do whatever we need to do without having to pull out a ladder.

All you really need are 4 colors of stage washes and a few specials and you can do just about any show and make it look pretty good. Lets face it, unless you are doing Les Miserables, it is all you need.

[Charc]

Lets face it, unless you are doing Les Miserables, it is all you need.

... I think my sense of self worth has been crushed. ()

Now, all I need to do is suggest Les Miz for next years season! ()

[Footer]

I would disagree with the statement that just a few movers are worthless. I worked in a club that has live music acts about 5 nights a week, with about 4,000 people a week average coming through the doors (not a very big club). We had a few dozen par cans, 4 lekos, and 10 movers. The movers made our jobs so much easier. We had 6 on the truss behind the bands, and 4 in front of the stage. We never had to focus the cans or lekos, we just adjusted the movers from the console. The pars give a great wash, and the movers provide the specials.
We are getting ready to put in some scrollers, and then we will have the versatility to do whatever we need to do without having to pull out a ladder.
All you really need are 4 colors of stage washes and a few specials and you can do just about any show and make it look pretty good. Lets face it, unless you are doing Les Miserables, it is all you need.

10 is a great number to have, you can easily cover a stage with that. What I personaly hate is when people drop 10-20 grand on 4 wash fixtures. They dont have enough to actually do anything. In a concert situation any mover is a welcomed addition, in theatre, its a glorified special that probably wont be able to do exacly what you want it to do in ever situation. I would rather have the extra 60 source fours and a nice rep plot then 3 or 4 studio colors or save that money and rent occasionally when I can and when I need to.

If your going to get movers, figure out what you want to replace in your current plot. If you have 20 specials plotted that you have to focus for every group, replace those with 8-10 fixtures, if you want a poppy backlight system, go with 10 or so wash fixtures... If you have a position FOH that is just horrible to get to, go with a VL1000 or the like.

[wctctech]

Thanks for all the input,

A console is part of the equation. I was looking at either a ETC congo, although I did Demo the new strand product, but have never really been a strand user, and would wait until Strand has a year under the new ownership to produce something of there own not a repackaged Marquee product. Although the Marquee was interesting. They made a strange addition to the theatre about two years ago and purchased a emphasis server, so Moving lights is a bit doable, but still a pain. The emphasis was brought in to solve a problem and it created its own set of issues. So as far as console it is part of the equation. The reality is the hope would be to replace an existing four colour top wash with something that is a little more flexible, and when we go to Dance season (12 dance schools rent the venue for two months and do end of year shows) give the users the ability to have a "bigger more professional" looking show. MEaning lots of flash and flam. We would not be looking at renting them to users as it is not part of our mandate. I would love to go to a whole house of movers but. One problem in our space has always been an shortage of availble electrical power so limited dimmers. The power is routed into the theatre by the High School attached to us and getting more than I have is a problem, so I am limited to the total number of dimmers. Hence why I purchased 8 i cues, for those shows where you need dozens of specials. My designers love them and have even used them with a bit of a retro fit to attach to my wybron wash fixture. What I am trying to say is that with limited number of dimmers (150) I can only add so many fixtures and still have flexibility, hence why every thing needs to serve more than one purpose. Anyways, Thanks

Chris

[gafftaper]

Congo's effects generator... I don't remember what they call the feature exactly... would make it really easy for you to program some cool moving lights tricks on a short time schedule. Unless you get into the Strand Light Palette consoles that cost like $15k more than Congo you just don't have the easy moving light access with the other Strand consoles... the ability is there but it's all done with a mouse and keyboard. Remember that Congo Jr. has almost every feature of the full console so you can save like $8k by purchasing Jr. if you don't need all the extra DMX universes and channels. Also you might want to wait and take a look at ETC's new board "ION" coming this fall... it appears that its' going to be basicly an "EOS Jr."

[jmabray]

Congo's effects generator... I don't remember what they call the feature exactly... would make it really easy for you to program some cool moving lights tricks on a short time schedule. Unless you get into the Strand Light Palette consoles that cost like $15k more than Congo you just don't have the easy moving light access with the other Strand consoles... the ability is there but it's all done with a mouse and keyboard. Remember that Congo Jr. has almost every feature of the full console so you can save like $8k by purchasing Jr. if you don't need all the extra DMX universes and channels. Also you might want to wait and take a look at ETC's new board "ION" coming this fall... it appears that its' going to be basicly an "EOS Jr."

It's called an Effects Engine. Plus there are going to be Step Based Effects (not a typical Step based chase or the like, that's already in there) in the next software release - some pretty powerful stuff to say the least. Congo Jr. has the exact same number of channels and outputs as the full version - the difference is only in the hardware - and with the master fader wing addition - there isn't much of a difference.

As for the ION, I am sure I will be able to tell more about next week as I am heading to the factory tomorrow...

[gafftaper]

It's called an Effects Engine. Plus there are going to be Step Based Effects (not a typical Step based chase or the like, that's already in there) in the next software release - some pretty powerful stuff to say the least. Congo Jr. has the exact same number of channels and outputs as the full version - the difference is only in the hardware - and with the master fader wing addition - there isn't much of a difference.
As for the ION, I am sure I will be able to tell more about next week as I am heading to the factory tomorrow...

We always get the ETC inside scoop from jmabray... look forward to hearing more on ION.

[SteveB]

Thanks for all the input,
A console is part of the equation. . They made a strange addition to the theatre about two years ago and purchased a emphasis server, so Moving lights is a bit doable, but still a pain. The emphasis was brought in to solve a problem and it created its own set of issues.
Chris

Curious as to what issues Emphasis created, as mine essentially does what I need it to do, though I agree that on-the-fly ML control is not something it does. Do you have a Net2 system ?, and if so, that would be a reason for wanting to stay with ETC.

I too am console shopping, and am currently intrigued by Congo, especially as there's been a lot of buzz on the stagecraft list about how fast RPN is to program. I am still waiting for the trickle down Eos to show it's face. I admit to being concerned about having to teach outside users RPN, as well needing a console that has the sub capacity of the Insight, so we'll see what develops.

SB

[gafftaper]

Curious as to what issues Emphasis created, as mine essentially does what I need it to do, though I agree that on-the-fly ML control is not something it does. Do you have a Net2 system ?, and if so, that would be a reason for wanting to stay with ETC.
I too am console shopping, and am currently intrigued by Congo, especially as there's been a lot of buzz on the stagecraft list about how fast RPN is to program. I am still waiting for the trickle down Eos to show it's face. I admit to being concerned about having to teach outside users RPN, as well needing a console that has the sub capacity of the Insight, so we'll see what develops.
SB

Interesting Steve. The first Congo demo I saw about a year ago, even though the rep assured us it was faster, everyone left shaking their head at having to learn RPN and why they just didn't leave things alone. My reaction was, "how hard can it be to change the order you type in?" It's interesting to hear that people are really seeing a speed increase now that they've had time to learn it.

[Grog12]

gaff from what I understand RPN comes from the fact that they bought Congo from a company in Europe and wanted to get a new ML console out on the market. Apparently EOS is supposed to be closer to what all of us ETC programmers expect programing wise with the technology from the Congo.

I for one walked away complety frustrated with ETC when the Congo came out. After the abismal (sp?) Revolution and the Smartfade which harkens to Leprechaun boards, I was left wondering what ETC was thinking.

[SteveB]

The whole ETC lineup is obviously in transition and it's a waiting game at this point.

Unlike Strand, which until Genlyte brought them out and now attempts to merge Marquee with Palette (or not), and who seemingly had a standard set of syntax/OS running from the 300 series up to the 500, ETC has always had a disconnect between Expression and Obsession, with completely different OS's. I believe that ETC is attempting to get "most" of their console line off the same OS as EOS and added the Congo line as a stop gap. Thus I have played a waiting game and have not jumped on the Congo bandwagon. Mostly as I really don't want to learn Avab syntax again ( I learned it once a long time ago and hated it), as well as I don't believe that Congo and Jr. fill in the console line the way that Obsession to Expression to Insight to Express went. Used to be, that as long as you didn't mind switching OS's from Obsession to Expression, you could find a console that met your requirements. That's not the case these days as there's no replacement yet for Insight, Nor for Express 72/144 & 48/86. At this point it's my guess that due to the age of a lot of Expression/Insight II's, as well as early generation Expresses, there's a lot of customers in the same boat I am, namely right on the edge of needing to make decisions with nothing I want out of ETC as yet.

SB

[Grog12]

Steve for the win.

Remember one thing though...Obsession was created with Strand consoles in mind because at the time that was Broadway standard. The nice thing was there wasn't too much of syntax difference but enough of a one to be confusing at times.

Hopefully ETC will get its whole consonle situation sorted out.

How do you all feel about this (what seems like a) recent trend to consoles on PC?

[icewolf08]

EOS essentially uses the Obsession II syntax for programming. The new ION is supposed to be a scaled back version of the same OS as EOS, so that will probably close up the funky gap in the ETC console languages. Since Expression is going go out of production with the introduction of ION, I don't think anyone will have to worry about that programming style unless they are still working on the old consoles (which I wknow will take a while to phase out). Of course you still have to stand on your haed to program Congo, but I blame that on the Europeans...

In Strand the new Palette and Light Palette series in theory use the same basic syntax to the 300 and 500 series. I don't think that making that transition will be any harder than making the transition from Obsession II to Eos.

[jmabray]

Congo is not at all a stop gap console. Congo/Eos is the same thing as Expression/Obsession.

One cosole is a Cue only desk by default, the other is a tracking desk by default.

Eos's syntax is really similar to Obsession, but not because the built it around that language, but because the market research showed that is what it wanted (it's another chicken/egg argument)
I have seen ION and it looks sexy. I have not worked with it yet, but will tomorrow and let people know more then.

[icewolf08]

Congo is not at all a stop gap console. Congo/Eos is the same thing as Expression/Obsession.
One cosole is a Cue only desk by default, the other is a tracking desk by default.
Eos's syntax is really similar to Obsession, but not because the built it around that language, but because the market research showed that is what it wanted (it's another chicken/egg argument)
I have seen ION and it looks sexy. I have not worked with it yet, but will tomorrow and let people know more then.

Congo/Eos isn't really the same as Expression/Obsession. Congo was designed to be an ML console, and it isn't really designed to be the console everyone puts in their high school or place of worship. Expression/Obsession is small scale venue vs. large scale venue, and the "we want to make a console that will be as popular as the Light Palette." From the outset, Congo was designed as a high end console.

I also think that the Obsession to Eos and having the same syntax is in response to people like Strand always keeping the same syntax on their consoles so that it was easy for a programmer to sit at any of the consoles and not have to re-learn how it works. When you think about the programming syntax on both Strand and Obsession/Eos consoles, it is very similar (funny thing about that), but also it is the way that designers speak: "Channel X at 50." (as opposed to Congo where you have to walk backwards to get the words to come out of your mouth in the correct order to program).

I look forward to hearing about Ion when you get to play with it.

[jmabray]

Congo/Eos isn't really the same as Expression/Obsession. Congo was designed to be an ML console, and it isn't really designed to be the console everyone puts in their high school or place of worship. Expression/Obsession is small scale venue vs. large scale venue, and the "we want to make a console that will be as popular as the Light Palette." From the outset, Congo was designed as a high end console.
I also think that the Obsession to Eos and having the same syntax is in response to people like Strand always keeping the same syntax on their consoles so that it was easy for a programmer to sit at any of the consoles and not have to re-learn how it works. When you think about the programming syntax on both Strand and Obsession/Eos consoles, it is very similar (funny thing about that), but also it is the way that designers speak: "Channel X at 50." (as opposed to Congo where you have to walk backwards to get the words to come out of your mouth in the correct order to program).
I look forward to hearing about Ion when you get to play with it.

I would disagree with the statement that Congo was designed to be a high end console, in some respects. Is it a high end console, compared to the express/expression? Absolutely, but it is also very indicative of where the console market is going. More often than not, you are now controlling non-dimmer devices with consoles, and the next generation of desks needed to address that advance in a significant way. The idea with both lines of desk was that you would no longer have to have a desk for your conventionals, and another desk for your movers. It would be one desk that would control both well. It (especially the Jr.) was specifically designed to go into high schools and Houses of Worship. Again, it was designed to do both conventionals and movers well.

Yes there is some small scale vs. large scale venue aspect to the expression vs. obsession line. However, it really is more a function of how you want the desk to function, as well as other feature (I.e. do you need full tracking backup, etc) You can get an Expression with 1200 channels - that was a very significant amount in it's day - for the larger venues. I put forth that it was more of the fact that the larger and professional houses used designers that were used to a tracking desk vs a cue only desk and that drove a lot of the decisions about which system to choose.


I say that congo/eos is expression/obsession from the standpoint of cue only vs tracking. ETC has had a line of consoles that will do each, and they are going to continue to have a line that does each, that's all.

Is the RPN different? yes it is, but as I have said before, it takes about 15 minutes of actually using the desk to get over it. It's not like ETC pulled RPN out of thin air and decided to use it either. There is a line of consoles going back 20 some odd years that have been using this syntax. It really is easy to think about it in these terms -- You put in a number, and then you tell it what the number is. That's it.

I have said this before, i believe, and if I haven't, I will say it now. When the Congo first came out - i was very stand offish as well. I didn't like RPN and didn't really want to take the time to go through it and learn it. But I recently programmed a show on a jr and it was very easy. It just flows after the first little bit of programming on it.


After that show, i am excited about the desk and found it to be really rather easy. I actually have a harder time thinking about the two button press commands than I do the RPN. They are so simple, but because there was absolutely nothing like it on an expression line, it's not something I am quite used to just yet.

I am sure that I will post more about the ION after I get to play with it some tomorrow

Thanks for the discussion

[Grog12]

Is the RPN different? yes it is, but as I have said before, it takes about 15 minutes of actually using the desk to get over it. It's not like ETC pulled RPN out of thin air and decided to use it either. There is a line of consoles going back 20 some odd years that have been using this syntax. It really is easy to think about it in these terms -- You put in a number, and then you tell it what the number is. That's it.

Meeeeeeh...Its not that they pulled it out of thin air, because you're right they didn't, its that its so radically different from every other console they had out at the point. People had a certain expectation when they sat down at an ETC console and Congo didn't really meet that from this standpoint.

Personally I like boards that program like I talk. I think in terms of putting Channel 20 at 50%, Not 50% channel 20 or however it is you have to do it on Congo (For the record its been a while and I don't quite remember the button strokes).

[len]

I skimmed some of the answers, and didn't see this:

First, what are people asking for? If they have any idea what they're doing, they'll have an idea of what brand/wattage/types of fixtures they want. Same with console.

Also, are there any production houses near you? If so, what I would do is contact them and make a deal. Get a rate from them, then their inventory becomes your inventory. Naturally, I would line up a bunch of them so that if one were out you could still get stuff. About 70% of the lighting I use is rented. Fortunately, there's about 6 - 8 rental houses near me, so I don't have issues with getting stuff. I know what it will cost me to rent, and I just pass that on to my customers, plus a fee for my time to pick it up and return it, plus truck rental, etc. The other 30% was determined by my ability to sell a certain product so often that it made sense to buy instead of renting.

As for consoles, better leave it up to the visiting people. Some people are versed in a lot of different ones, but most are not. If you're a Hog guy, you may not know Avo or MA very well. Even if they are versatile, they may not have the time to re-do the whole show for every different console.

Obviously, if you don't have adequate resources, renting is out. Personally, I'd make a decision to go with a mix of about 40/60 wash to profile, and change that up depending on the types of shows you're doing.

[ElectricDoozer]

Hello-

Something that I don't think I have seen in this topics yet is the consideration for sound. You will want to pick a unit that can multi task and give you as much flexibility as you want while being as quiet as it can be. VL's are the best for sound as are some of the newer S4 Revolutions. You will also want to consider how to go about fixing them. In order to take apart a VL without voiding the warranty you need to be certified by VL in the field. But for something that is more outfitted to do more event styles you may still want to go with a VL.
Also if you are looking into anything with the EOS make sure you have the adapter box to go from CAT5 to DMX. There are no DMX outputs on the EOS board because it is a "next gen" board.
Hoped that helps. Also hope I wasn't repeating anyone else.


-J.

[gafftaper]

Hello-
Something that I don't think I have seen in this topics yet is the consideration for sound. You will want to pick a unit that can multi task and give you as much flexibility as you want while being as quiet as it can be. VL's are the best for sound as are some of the newer S4 Revolutions. You will also want to consider how to go about fixing them. In order to take apart a VL without voiding the warranty you need to be certified by VL in the field. But for something that is more outfitted to do more event styles you may still want to go with a VL.
Also if you are looking into anything with the EOS make sure you have the adapter box to go from CAT5 to DMX. There are no DMX outputs on the EOS board because it is a "next gen" board.
Hoped that helps. Also hope I wasn't repeating anyone else.
-J.

From Martin the MAC 700 and TW1 are pretty quiet as well.

The lack of DMX outputs is going to be common soon as everything starts converting to an ethernet system. I believe Strand is going all ethernet out on all their new consoles. Fortunately there is a fairly simple and reasonably priced solution for converting back and forth called a DMX/Ethernet node. The node will allow the EOS to talk DMX to whatever piece of equipment needs DMX. It also works in reverse so you can use a Congo Jr. DMX out into a Strand node and control your strand dimmers over Ethernet.

It's going to be a little weird out there until the industry settles in with ACN and RDM (or gives up and just stays with DMX).

[icewolf08]

Hello-
Something that I don't think I have seen in this topics yet is the consideration for sound. You will want to pick a unit that can multi task and give you as much flexibility as you want while being as quiet as it can be. VL's are the best for sound as are some of the newer S4 Revolutions. You will also want to consider how to go about fixing them. In order to take apart a VL without voiding the warranty you need to be certified by VL in the field. But for something that is more outfitted to do more event styles you may still want to go with a VL.
Also if you are looking into anything with the EOS make sure you have the adapter box to go from CAT5 to DMX. There are no DMX outputs on the EOS board because it is a "next gen" board.
Hoped that helps. Also hope I wasn't repeating anyone else.
-J.

EOS ships with a DMX node, there is almost no one out there who doesn't need it if they are upgrading. Plus, if you are going to sped $40K and up you ought to be able to use the console!

[ElectricDoozer]

It's good to know the EOS comes with the node. When I was playing with the demo board they weren't sure if it would be. Thanks.