Brand Familiarity

[Sylak]

So, working in an auditorium from teh school district down the road, I've encountered some pretty messed up things, ie. various sound equipment issues, an unusable two channel clear-com system thats missing all the 6-pin XLR but has the headsets, unchangeable houselights,
But the weirdest thing to me was the dimmer and light board brand. So, I'm goign to ask you other lighting techs how familiar you are with some more and less prominent lighting brands, just to see what the general concensus is.
Rank them with 1-11 with 1 being the most familiar name, and 11 being the least. (forgive me for bad spellings)

ETC
Hub Electric
Leprecan
Levation/NSI
American DJ/Elation
Altman
Flying Pig Systems
Horizon
Electronics Diversified
Other

[avkid]

ETC
Hub Electric
Leprecon
Leviton/NSI
American DJ/Elation
Altman
Flying Pig Systems
Horizon
Electronics Diversified
Other

Corrected for spelling,
does Hub electric still exist?

[Sylak]

No, but it's still the idea that some of us still use their equipment, and I'm sure some of the older people here remember when they still existed.

[BillESC]

Altman - Dealer 34 years
Leviton/NSI - Dealer 30+ years
ETC - Dealer 20+ years
American DJ/Elation - Dealer 7 years
Hub Electric - Worked on and replaced this equipment
Electronics Diversified - Worked on and replaced this equipment
Leprecon - Have operated several of their touring boards
Flying Pig Systems - No experience
Horizon - No experience

[avkid]

Leviton/NSI
Altman
Horizon
ETC
American DJ/Elation
Flying Pig Systems
Leprecon
Electronics Diversified
Hub Electric

[Grog12]

ETC-1
Hub Electric-11
Leprecan-2
Levation/NSI-4
American DJ/Elation-5
Altman-1
Flying Pig Systems-1
Horizon-5
Electronics Diversified-11
Other

For the record... I hate Leprechaun!

[Logos]

From another continent

I know and have used ETC and like it.
I know and have used American DJ it's OK.
I know Altman and have seen a couple of Lanterns
I've never heard of any of the rest.

[gafftaper]

ETC
Hub Electric
Leprecan
Levation/NSI
American DJ/Elation
Altman
Flying Pig Systems
Horizon
Electronics Diversified
Other

That's kind of a weird list as you are mixing apples and oranges quite a bit.
We've been around this topic a few times in a variety of ways. You'll never find two people who agree 100% on this topic but I think I can summarize. You also have some brands missing so I'm going to add a few things.

Light Control Consoles...
If your purpose is controlling moving lights for a concert tour... the top choices are probably a Hog, a GrandMA, and a Martin Maxxyz

If your purpose is generally theatrical control consoles... the top choices are ETC and Strand.

If you are looking for a computer based lighting system there are options from all of the above brands plus Horizon... which is owned by the same company that owns, Vari-lite, and Strand by the way. The horizon software is now the core software for all of Strand's new consoles.

Moving lights...
If you are looking for the actual moving lights the best are Martin, Vari-lite, and High End. Robe is big in Europe... and might also belong on this list, I'm not sure about that.

ADJ, Elation, Chauvet are all essentially DJ gear... Elation is one that has a lot of people talking because they recently hired a top designer in the industry. There is a lot of talk about them trying to move up in the world from the DJ level to being a top player competing with Martin and Varilight... the jury is still out on that. Their newly released Powerspot 700 has gotten a lot of positive talk. I wouldn't buy ADJ or Chauvet... unless all I wanted was a cheap DJ effect.

Dimmers...
ETC is generally considered the best in the dimming world followed by Strand.

Control and Dimmers in the bargain basement:
Leprachaun, Lightronics, Dove, EDI, NSI... You'll find a HUGE argument about which of these are good and which suck. As far as ranking... I'm not going to go there. Do some searching and you'll find several arguments on the best of the cheap stuff. Personally I wouldn't buy Leprachaun or Lighttronics, the other brands I'm comfortable with if I can't afford the good ones listed above... but they aren't as good.

Conventional Lights
Altman: Want a Fresnel, Strip light, or Wash light, Altman makes some of the best. The 360Q was the most popular ERS for over a decade... and still isn't a bad option if you can't afford a Source Four. ETC Source Four and Selecon Pacific are the best in the ERS world... Selecon is from New Zealand so it's kind of expensive to get here in the states. Given a choice I would probably choose Selecon over ETC Source Four... but both are excellent.

I've Never heard of Hub Electric.

[Charc]

ADJ, Elation, Chauvet are all essentially DJ gear... Elation is one that has a lot of people talking because they recently hired a top designer in the industry. There is a lot of talk about them trying to move up in the world from the DJ level to being a top player competing with Martin and Varilight... the jury is still out on that. Their newly released Powerspot 700 has gotten a lot of positive talk. I wouldn't buy ADJ or Chauvet... unless all I wanted was a cheap DJ effect.

It's late, but for some reason I thought it'd be funny if there was a lurker here that worked for ADJ or Chauvet, and their products just kept getting trashed time and time again. I'd hazard a guess it doesn't feel to well to be regarded as the "cheap-o manufacturer".

[jonhirsh]

1 ETC, Leprecon, Leviton/NSI, Altman
2 Horizon
3 Flying Pig Systems, American DJ/Elation
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Hub Electric, Electronics Diversified

[gafftaper]

It's late, but for some reason I thought it'd be funny if there was a lurker here that worked for ADJ or Chauvet, and their products just kept getting trashed time and time again. I'd hazard a guess it doesn't feel to well to be regarded as the "cheap-o manufacturer".

You notice I didn't say ADJ or Chauvet is garbage. They make what they make for a specific market. That market isn't Broadway it's mostly high school dance DJ's. I've got no problem with them. Some people are buying Chauvet movers as a cheap way to get their school into the intelligent lighting world. Hey that's fine. You just aren't getting something that is going to have the quality, durability, long life, or the fine effects of a Mac 700... on the other hand you can get 2 or 3 Chauvet's for the price of one Mac 700. These companies have their place and their market... it's just generally not the people on this board.

Leprechaun and Lighttronics on the other hand do make junk.

[Sean]

So, working in an auditorium from teh school district down the road, I've encountered some pretty messed up things, ie. various sound equipment issues, an unusable two channel clear-com system thats missing all the 6-pin XLR but has the headsets, unchangeable houselights,
But the weirdest thing to me was the dimmer and light board brand. So, I'm goign to ask you other lighting techs how familiar you are with some more and less prominent lighting brands, just to see what the general concensus is.
Rank them with 1-11 with 1 being the most familiar name, and 11 being the least. (forgive me for bad spellings)
ETC
Hub Electric
Leprecan
Levation/NSI
American DJ/Elation
Altman
Flying Pig Systems
Horizon
Electronics Diversified
Other

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this list. I've used equipment from all of the above. Hub Electric went out of business some years back, I believe. They were a major player, especially in the Mid-west in the 50's and 60's. All of the other companies mentioned make products that are out there, now, being used professionally. They all make different products that have their place in the world.

What is it that you're trying to point out?

--Sean

[gafftapegreenia]

Honestly, I like the DJ lights for what they are, simple, cheap, basic, cheesey effects. When you need that look, hey you got it. What is more classic than a PAR 36 helecopter? Although, for some reason I do like Chauvet's offerings better. Maybe it's just how they present themselves, for some reason they seem less "ghetto". On Elation, I must agree, why pay high end prices for low end gear. However, if your looking for cheap gear or stuff for light duty, why not. Every light has a place. They wouldn't make it if they couldn't sell it.

And for Leprechon, they do make one thing we all love, the LittleLite.

[Grog12]

And here I find myself disagreeing with gaff for the first time. Personally I dislike the Selecon. Given my druthers (yes I just used that term) I'd prefer a Altman Shakes if ETC was unavailable. Granted I'd probably take the PS over a Strand SL...but hey that's just me.

[gafftaper]

And here I find myself disagreeing with gaff for the first time. Personally I dislike the Selecon. Given my druthers (yes I just used that term) I'd prefer a Altman Shakes if ETC was unavailable. Granted I'd probably take the PS over a Strand SL...but hey that's just me.

REALLY?

What don't you like? The sharper focus? no need for a donut? no need for a color extender, the smooth flat field? the 360 degree barrel rotation? the fact you can print your own transparencies and project them? the better heat management? Granted they look like a metal banana... but so many features make them way cooler.

I have to admit that for my new theater I'm going with mostly Source Fours instead of Selecon. But that is because of the cost and long term concerns about getting parts in 10 years. Although I feel Selecon is superior, it's much safer to stay with the rest of the herd. As such my inventory is going to be 84 Source Fours and 12 Selecon Zooms primarily for gobos and transparencies.

Although they are made down under... which means the metric system is involved in their production... Hmmm... I may have to rethink this.

[Logos]

Selecon are New Zealand made and you know how they feel about sheep over there.
Given the choice between Selecon and Source 4 here I go the other way. The Source 4 is more expensive than the Selecon Pacific down here. I wouldn't worry about parts I think the Company will be around. It's made a huge inroad into Europe.
And yes it's metric. It's all a plot to force you guys over to the decimal side of the force.

[gafftaper]

Selecon are New Zealand made and you know how they feel about sheep over there.
Given the choice between Selecon and Source 4 here I go the other way. The Source 4 is more expensive than the Selecon Pacific down here. I wouldn't worry about parts I think the Company will be around. It's made a huge inroad into Europe.
And yes it's metric. It's all a plot to force you guys over to the decimal side of the force.

It's not so much that I worry about the company existing... it's a great product and there's enough market down under to keep them going just fine. It's having a reliable distribution network here on the top side of the world that makes me nervous. My impression of there dealer network is a little concerned. They seem to be trying really hard to make a way into the U.S. But it seems like an uphill battle.

[Charc]

I've seen many spellings, for what I thought was one manufacturer. Can I confirm that Leprecon is all the same company? Which means, as gaff would phrase it, a local community theatre I recently helped out installed junk?

[Grog12]

REALLY?
What don't you like? The sharper focus? no need for a donut? no need for a color extender, the smooth flat field? the 360 degree barrel rotation? the fact you can print your own transparencies and project them? the better heat management? Granted they look like a metal banana... but so many features make them way cooler.

Uhm the sharper focus is a matter of opinion. I've never once needed a donut or a color extender. The smooth flat field is again a matter of opinion. You only need 360 barrel rotation if you have idiots putting in your gobo's. I've never once found a situtation where I wanted to print my own transparencies though that is one feature I like.

But what I really don't like?

Is the heat managment system. Namely because you could cook steaks on that thing. And its a **** good way to get a 3rd degree burn. Especially since it took them something like 4 years to put the black safety grating on the instruments.

[len]

ETC
Hub Electric
Leprecan
Levation/NSI
American DJ/Elation
Altman
Flying Pig Systems
Horizon
Electronics Diversified
Other

Known more from theater:

ETC, Leprecon, Leviton, Altman, Horizon

Known more from music:

Flying Pig/High End, Elation/ADJ

The others I don't know at all.

[len]

Leprechaun and Lighttronics on the other hand do make junk.

Why do you say that?

I've used both Leprecon and Lightronics tree dimmers for years with no issues. And their small (24 channel and under) boards too. I even dropped a Leprecon dimmer 10+ feet onto concrete and all that happened was it got a little dented. In fact, the lightronics dimmer/relay is my preferred dmx relay when I have to fire things like confetti, air blowers, etc.

[Grog12]

Leprecon consoles are the least intuitive consoles I have ever programmed on. Seriously, on the X24, one of their high end consoles, you can't live edit. Which if directors don't understand that, tends to piss them off. The dimmers of theirs I've worked with where...spuratic at best and just plain non fucntioning at worst.

AND FOR GODSAKES WHY DO WE MAKE CONSOLES WITHOUT A TEN KEY ANYMORE THIS IS THE NEW **** MILLENIA!!!!

Shame on you Leprecon, and shame on ETC for making the Smartfade boards!

[Sean]

Leprecon consoles are the least intuitive consoles I have ever programmed on. Seriously, on the X24, one of their high end consoles, you can't live edit. Which if directors don't understand that, tends to piss them off. The dimmers of theirs I've worked with where...spuratic at best and just plain non fucntioning at worst.
AND FOR GODSAKES WHY DO WE MAKE CONSOLES WITHOUT A TEN KEY ANYMORE THIS IS THE NEW **** MILLENIA!!!!
Shame on you Leprecon, and shame on ETC for making the Smartfade boards!

Though I can't speak to the console logic (I've never understood why NSI/Lep/etc boards speak the way they do), I find the shame comment a bit much. Obviously there's a market out there for lower-end consoles and dimmers.

I picked up a couple SmartBars from ETC. We've been using them for about 6 months now in a large regional theatre. No, they aren't "great" (they're Triac dimming, so their dimming curves don't match up with the SCR's), but with their low cost and size they were a perfect solution for driving practicals, footlights, etc.

Remember, if there wasn't a big enough market for them, companies wouldn't be making these products.

--Sean

[Grog12]

Though I can't speak to the console logic (I've never understood why NSI/Lep/etc boards speak the way they do), I find the shame comment a bit much. Obviously there's a market out there for lower-end consoles and dimmers.
I picked up a couple SmartBars from ETC. We've been using them for about 6 months now in a large regional theatre. No, they aren't "great" (they're Triac dimming, so their dimming curves don't match up with the SCR's), but with their low cost and size they were a perfect solution for driving practicals, footlights, etc.
Remember, if there wasn't a big enough market for them, companies wouldn't be making these products.
--Sean

True but the Express used to be ETC's low end. It was compatible with the higher end boards and made it an easy switch over when you were able/needed to upgrade to a heavier duty console. The Smartfade on the other hand is just cumbersome to use and patch. Which is reminiscent of Leprecon.

[gafftaper]

Why do you say that?
I've used both Leprecon and Lightronics tree dimmers for years with no issues. And their small (24 channel and under) boards too. I even dropped a Leprecon dimmer 10+ feet onto concrete and all that happened was it got a little dented. In fact, the lightronics dimmer/relay is my preferred dmx relay when I have to fire things like confetti, air blowers, etc.

You see that's why in my original post I said I wasn't going to trash any of the low end gear. And then I let my smart mouth go off and take a cheap shot at the two L brands. I had a bad experience in college with both brands. Nothing spectacularly bad... just what I thought was poor equipment design and unreliable operation.

Let me retract my statement that Leprecon and Lightronics "make junk" and go back to my original stand.

So here's the group (and there are others that go on this list as well) Leprecon, Lightronics, NSI, EDI, Colortran, Dove, and in some cases ADJ, Chauvet, and Elation: When you buy products from the lower end there is a certain element of reliability risk, a drop in features, sometimes a drop in "firepower", and sometimes a drop in ease of use. That's just part of the deal when you don't buy from one of the big boys. If we took a poll we would find someone who loves and someone who hates every one of these brands. In the end they all have the same leap of faith involved where you have to say, "I can't afford ETC dimmers so I'm going to take a chance and go with__________ ." None of these brands are "the best" but there are plenty of applications where they will do just fine. There are TON'S of schools and churches out there who use these brands for their dimmers and consoles. Now that wouldn't be a wise idea if the gear was used 4 hours a night and 8 on the weekends like in a Broadway theater. But if it's only turned on 1 or 2 hours a week, your needs are far less demanding and you can happily get away with this kind of equipment without ever having a problem.

[Sylak]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this list. I've used equipment from all of the above. Hub Electric went out of business some years back, I believe. They were a major player, especially in the Mid-west in the 50's and 60's. All of the other companies mentioned make products that are out there, now, being used professionally. They all make different products that have their place in the world.

What is it that you're trying to point out?

--Sean

I'm mostly trying to confrim with myself the most people have never head or Electronics Diversified if i ever hear crap from a Bus Driver who runs a light board in a school that ETC is an "OK" brand after being lectured by a repair representative that his defective board is cheaper to manufacture than a single light that's used in the facility.
So, essentially, i needed a perspective from more than me and the local theater store, not the local generic electronics store who will retail a dimmer system.

[gafftaper]

I'm mostly trying to confrim with myself the most people have never head or Electronics Diversified

Sorry Sylak, EDI's actually a decent company who were doing pretty well until ETC came along and took over the market. EDI was actually a pretty big player in the moderate budget market a few years ago. They did a ton of schools in the 80's. Up here in the Pacific Northwest it seems like every high school has EDI dimmers and consoles. That may have been more of a regional thing since they are based in this area.

I believe they may have been the first to produce a portable SCR dimmer... anybody know if that's true? I've used a lot of EDI equipment and never had a problem with it except for one unit which after 25 years of neglect and abuse deserves to die with dignity.

Today EDI's probably most famous for the SCRimmer stick. It's a 4 channel portable dimmer that is powered by plugging into two standard outlets which are on separate circuits. It's a popular product for small and portable systems like DJs and Rentals.

(They are also located only a half hour or so from Van's house so you know they are special.)

[ship]

Not about this post in general but to the old timers... does it seem in general a generational thing that yesterdays's Strand as a brand that's the top of the line to compare to is now ETC as a concept?

Leprecon... good stuff also in half reading somewhat about the shoe box dimmers I believe. Other stuff often as good but in the end you get what you pay for or design around what you can afford. Two seperate concepts that can be workable.

[gafftaper]

Not about this post in general but to the old timers... does it seem in general a generational thing that yesterdays's Strand as a brand that's the top of the line to compare to is now ETC as a concept?

So true Ship. Just because ETC is on top now doesn't mean they will always be. That's why I keep pushing that people need to check out the new Strand Consoles. Strand and ETC are both in the middle of a complete change of product. Who knows which one will be considered the best in a couple years. Just because the combination of the Express and Obsession dominated both the high end and mid level markets for years doesn't mean that the new ETC boards will also dominate. Maybe people will like the Strand software better. The market is very fickle.

[jmabray]

True - they may have an infinitely superior product, but until they can support it the way that ETC does, they will have to fight to get market share. Was the express console the best of it's time? No, i really don't think so. It was good and did some things very easily, but it wasn't as flexible, or quite frankly, as powerful as the 300 series from Strand. But if you ever had a problem, you could call ETC 24/7 and it would be handeled. Not the case with Strand - not even close.

Strand may have better product, but they have a long way to go to rehab their image in the eyes of the industry.

[gafftaper]

True - they may have an infinitely superior product, but until they can support it the way that ETC does, they will have to fight to get market share. Was the express console the best of it's time? No, i really don't think so. It was good and did some things very easily, but it wasn't as flexible, or quite frankly, as powerful as the 300 series from Strand. But if you ever had a problem, you could call ETC 24/7 and it would be handeled. Not the case with Strand - not even close.
Strand may have better product, but they have a long way to go to rehab their image in the eyes of the industry.

Very true. On the other hand, with the new ownership at Strand customer service may get fixed... Or it might get worse. I'm not a Strand sales guy, just trying to point out the reality of the market. You can only be on top so long... so watch out ETC.

[ship]

So true Ship. Just because ETC is on top now doesn't mean they will always be. That's why I keep pushing that people need to check out the new Strand Consoles. Strand and ETC are both in the middle of a complete change of product. Who knows which one will be considered the best in a couple years. Just because the combination of the Express and Obsession dominated both the high end and mid level markets for years doesn't mean that the new ETC boards will also dominate. Maybe people will like the Strand software better. The market is very fickle.

Was by BTB given a ETC lens assembly today. This is not fitting together so well the new casting with the old one. Yep, some amount of grinding away on one part plus the recess is not deep enough, verses some grinding away at the other part to make it fit... good thing I am not the contact person where we work with ETC or I would have more issues to deal with with them. Others are better than I at such things. Reminded me a lot of an Altman lens train assembly not fitting so well in holes lining up except that in this case the entire casting didn’t line up. Ah’ glad it’s not a battle I’m to fight with ETC - the land of never accepting tolerance or quality control problems.

Oops, said too much... ETC... yep another brand, good for them in becoming the Strand and Altman of yesterday but welcome to the living the life also.

[Sean]

Ship,

Are you having trouble with one half of the lens tube not mating with the other half? Or trouble inserting the lens train in a body?

Which revision lens is this? What's the manufacture date on the fixture yoke?

--Sean

[Lightingguy32]

ETC 1- frequently used, very familiar with all products
Hub Electric 9- ???
Leprecon 3 - used their boards and dimmers, they aren't bad for smaller venues
Colortran 4- used their ellipsoidals, fresnels, and pars, all are very rugged instruments.
American DJ/Elation 5- seen a board
Altman 2- frequently used
Flying Pig Systems 6- never used but heard of it
Horizon 7- tried out some of their equipment
Electronics Diversified 8- used their dimmers before once
Other 10- various random old companies that don't exist anymore

[beltsvillecrucib]

ETC 1 - I can find something ETC in almost any house I work in. Whether it be fixtures or consoles, a solid product all around.
Hub Electric 9 - never heard of em
Leprecon 7 - heard of their consoles and read about them a little and don't ever care to come across one.
Levation/NSI 4 - Used one of their consoles and some dimmers once
American DJ/Elation 6 - Heard of their fixtures, probably wouldnt touch any ADJ stuff unless I'm looking for a cheap disco effect.
Altman 3- One thing to say 360Q
Flying Pig Systems 2 - Not quite as common as ETC, but the Hog is still the mainstay console in most touring markets. I love it!
Horizon 5 - Their software is the backbone of the strand palettes right? no?
Electronics Diversified 8 - heard of em
Other - Strand was forgotten on the list? that would go to number 3 if it was.

[Lightingguy32]

I have one thing to add about the Leprecon line of the LP-1500 consoles, they are ok for smaller format theaters but they are a literal pain in the butt to program shows into and to edit things in, also the patching abilities are a bit doubtful. Their MX-Series dimmer packs seem to have fan problems quite often and also have very insensitive breakers that usually trip after a dimmer is fried by a short circuit.

[gafftapegreenia]

Does anyone, besides me, like the ULD series of Leprechon dimmers?

[stantonsound]

Yes, I love them. I like that they are 3600 watts total, rather than just 600 per channel. I also like that you can program each pack individually. I often do event decorative lighting, and the ability to do this keeps me from having to run control cables all over the room when I just need a few static lights.

They are heavy duty and perform very well.

[ship]

Ship,
Are you having trouble with one half of the lens tube not mating with the other half? Or trouble inserting the lens train in a body?
Which revision lens is this? What's the manufacture date on the fixture yoke?
--Sean

My fiencee (runs Leko Dpt.) says it was the lens train itself, they (ETC) said it was the molds getting old - not as refined of edges. Means nothing to me - it fits or it don't fit in selling a product or quality control, don't tell me about your manufacturing process in stuff you sell not being quality, do something about it before it gets to the customer.

On the other hand, I as the person that deals with Altman am currently in a fight with them about reflectors for their ground cyc lights. Seems somehow - na, couldn't imagine it, that the replacement reflectors they sell for their cyc lights these days have a smaller size than those they sold eight years or more ago. Buy a reflector these days and it won't fit on an older fixture - simply not long enough as a sheet this even if mis-shaped to fit. My rep and those engineers are astounded, they didn't change anything, are you sure you don't have an L&E fixture? ... here is the last PO from this type we bought seven years ago , yep, I'm sure as I only set up an account with L&E three years ago and don't own any of their cycs - though they are in consideration over some ancient colortran ones falling apart, this or perhaps.... Go around in circles with Altman about what to do about the reflectors not fitting for a week of back and forth E-mails. I give them three choices, send me the raw reflector material and I'll cut my own - plus send back yours we already bought. Lengthen your mounting flanges & take back the ones you sold (a fairly simple process which won't effect anything optically if it's true which it is), or take back your fixture and either see that your design has changed than revise or send me a new fixture - like 30 of them in each three and six cell, than correct the problem.

Last few E-Mails to the vendor rep late last week got no results, have to call her... Vendors hate it when I put them on the spot instead of E-Mailing that could be forgotton. Vendors hate it when there isn't an easy problem also, much less when an end user does his job in making sure things are not just dropped in solving problems.

ETC on the other hand did take back the bad lens trains. Should get them back sometime this month. Just wish such lens trains came correct the first time in making availabe fixtures for making money instead of loosing it while the gear was down. Don't worry ETC, the company at some point was all Altman 360Q... I have the remaining inventory of them on my storage shelving. In a few years, who knows what's obsolete also. Too bad cyc lights (Non ETC) are not really being much done for modern ideas these days though the Strand cyc is interesting.

[Sean]

Too bad cyc lights (Non ETC) are not really being much done for modern ideas these days though the Strand cyc is interesting.

I'd strongly suggest you look at the Selecon Aurora line of cyc lights. We currently have 20 (3 cell) at work, and I've spec'ed 20 more sky cycs and 12 ground cycs for our new space. They are for the most part really well made and thought out units. Great light output, very even field, and good color life. I'm very happy with them, and don't hesitate to recommend them at all.

My only real gripe about them is how the gel door is attached. On the 3 cell units they have a weakness--the door is too long and it flexes. When you do that you sometimes bend the hinge pine (that's 44" long). Once that's bent, the door does not work correctly anymore. I've spoken to their US rep, the guys that came over from New Zealand to LDI, and someone in the factory about the problem. I'm not sure if it has been resolved, but it's something to be aware of.