ETC ION, Opinions?

[ndiaz]

Hello, Our school's LD wants us to get the ION, and after looking at it, It seems like it'd be pretty good for us. Its a step up from the Express 250 we have, and then we wouldnt have to rent a moving light bord. Right? I just wanted to know what the ION has that the 250 doesn't have.

[derekleffew]

Your question is probably best answered in this thread. If anyone on CB has actually taken delivery of an Ion system, I'm sure they'll let us know.

[soundman]

We have a demo of it on Tuesday, I'll post a trip report after. I dont know what they are brining with it for wings though. We will be tied in to conventionals and movers to get a feel for all of the features. Unforchently unless they bring some movers I wont get to see how it deals with shutters.

[soundlight]

First thing: download the offline editor (it's the EOS offline editor, and you run it as the ION option). Play around with it, see what you think.

Second thing: you can probably get a demo from your local ETC dealer. They can bring the desk out and plug it in to your rig, and you can try it out.

I've only played around with the OLE, but I like it. The moving light control is definitely a big step up from the Express (Expression software), and there are specific keys for ML functions (unlike the elaborate softkey menus of the express). However, I find that the drawbacks are in the lack of other buttons. Since the EOS operating system is equivalent to the Obsession operating system in the new ETC line, I compared it against an Obsession 600 (first gen). There is a serious lack of display keys. This is my major problem with the console. If you get it, make sure to get a fader wing or two.

[gafftaper]

From what I've seen in Demo's it's a great console for a school that occasionally uses lot's of intelligent lighting gear. Download the software and try it for yourself. Get a demo if you can.

[jmabray]

However, I find that the drawbacks are in the lack of other buttons. Since the EOS operating system is equivalent to the Obsession operating system in the new ETC line, I compared it against an Obsession 600 (first gen). There is a serious lack of display keys. This is my major problem with the console. If you get it, make sure to get a fader wing or two.

Can you define what you mean by a "serious lack of display keys"?

I only ask, because if you haven't seen the desk in person, you wouldn't realize that there are display keys, just not hard keys on the console.

There is a <displays> button. When you press that button the softkeys all remap to your various displays -patch, color picker, etc. There are also <Live> and <Blind> keys as well.

Let me know what you mean because I haven't found it to be lacking in display options.

If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask. I have been demoing the console all week and am pretty familiar with it....



Thanks!

Jeff

[soundlight]

Can you define what you mean by a "serious lack of display keys"?

I only ask, because if you haven't seen the desk in person, you wouldn't realize that there are display keys, just not hard keys on the console.

There is a <displays> button. When you press that button the softkeys all remap to your various displays -patch, color picker, etc. There are also <Live> and <Blind> keys as well.

Basically, I really, really like the direct access display keys on the Obsession. I was very sad to see them go in to softkeys. Something else buried in the layers. One more keystroke. I must say, however, that I'd love to get my hands on one of these for a few minutes. If I get the job that I'm applying for this summer, I'm pretty sure that the company will get a demo.

[Grog12]

Can you define what you mean by a "serious lack of display keys"?
I only ask, because if you haven't seen the desk in person, you wouldn't realize that there are display keys, just not hard keys on the console.
There is a <displays> button. When you press that button the softkeys all remap to your various displays -patch, color picker, etc. There are also <Live> and <Blind> keys as well.
Let me know what you mean because I haven't found it to be lacking in display options.
If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask. I have been demoing the console all week and am pretty familiar with it....
Thanks!
Jeff

Can you disable the "Slide on" windows so they just pop up as opposed to wasting prossecing power on a silly little graphical look?

[derekleffew]

Can you disable the "Slide on" windows so they just pop up as opposed to wasting prossecing power on a silly little graphical look?

Oh, come on! Your making it way two easy! Yore a graduate of which university? I'm guess it was a bassetball scholarship?

[Grog12]

Oh, come on! Your making it way two easy! Yore a graduate of which university? I'm guess it was a bassetball scholarship?

Spelling's for the weak.

[derekleffew]

Who you callin' week?

[ndiaz]

Thanks everyone, Our LD is going to a demo soon. I'm sure my friends and I wil be downloading the software soon.

Thanks Again

[jmabray]

Spelling aside. Do you really think that with all the computing power available that a sliding graphic really eats that much into it? In any noticiable way? Really? Really?

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but don't you think that the manufacturer of a console would consider this? I know for a fact that ETC puts a significant amount of time and effort (read: MONEY) into the design of their layouts. Don't think that they would not have already thought of that.....

[Charc]

Spelling aside. Do you really think that with all the computing power available that a sliding graphic really eats that much into it? In any noticiable way? Really? Really?
I'm not trying to be an ass here, but don't you think that the manufacturer of a console would consider this? I know for a fact that ETC puts a significant amount of time and effort (read: MONEY) into the design of their layouts. Don't think that they would not have already thought of that.....

Nope. (Sorry, it's devil's advocate night. )

[gafftaper]

Nope. (Sorry, it's devil's advocate night. )

Good move Charc! You've got Phil stalking you and now you want to piss off Jeff. He'll be calling your mom too.

[avkid]

Good move Charc! You've got Phil stalking you and now you want to piss off Jeff. He'll be calling your mom too.

I'm only 3.5 hours away, Jeff is in Texas.

[avalentino]

First thing: download the offline editor (it's the EOS offline editor, and you run it as the ION option). Play around with it, see what you think.
Second thing: you can probably get a demo from your local ETC dealer. They can bring the desk out and plug it in to your rig, and you can try it out.
I've only played around with the OLE, but I like it. The moving light control is definitely a big step up from the Express (Expression software), and there are specific keys for ML functions (unlike the elaborate softkey menus of the express). However, I find that the drawbacks are in the lack of other buttons. Since the EOS operating system is equivalent to the Obsession operating system in the new ETC line, I compared it against an Obsession 600 (first gen). There is a serious lack of display keys. This is my major problem with the console. If you get it, make sure to get a fader wing or two.

Almost all of the record target displays (macros, effects, submasters, groups, IFCB palettes, cues, presets, etc) can be opened simply by double hitting the record target key. (This does not work on the OLE - where all displays other than Live/Blind are accessed via the browser. So, if your only exposure to Ion is via the OLE, you'd have no way to know this :-).....

To access Patch and Setup, you press [displays] and then either key. There is a Live key.... and a Blind key (which by default puts you into Cue Blind).
Due to the sheer number of different record targets, its impossible to put a display key on the desk for each one of them. Eos has the exact same approach and users have had no trouble with display access that I've heard of. And believe me, Eos users are quite comfortable stating their dislikes and likes! Lord love'em!

I hope that this helps. It's hard to get a sense of a console only via the OLE.... so please try to see one in person soon!

Anne Valentino
Eos/Ion product manager
ETC

[soundlight]

Almost all of the record target displays (macros, effects, submasters, groups, IFCB palettes, cues, presets, etc) can be opened simply by double hitting the record target key. (This does not work on the OLE - where all displays other than Live/Blind are accessed via the browser. So, if your only exposure to Ion is via the OLE, you'd have no way to know this :-).....

To access Patch and Setup, you press [displays] and then either key. There is a Live key.... and a Blind key (which by default puts you into Cue Blind).
Due to the sheer number of different record targets, its impossible to put a display key on the desk for each one of them. Eos has the exact same approach and users have had no trouble with display access that I've heard of. And believe me, Eos users are quite comfortable stating their dislikes and likes! Lord love'em!

I hope that this helps. It's hard to get a sense of a console only via the OLE.... so please try to see one in person soon!

Anne Valentino
Eos/Ion product manager
ETC

OK, that makes me quite a bit happier. I like the idea of using one key for two purposes (recording and display access). I still wish that patch and setup were direct access display keys though - but I guess that's just me and my familiarity with older ETC boards. Things are gonna have to change as more and more features get packed into a single, powerful board, and it's probably better to shed the display keys and add more ML keys than make a console that has 150 keys and growing...

And I'd love to get my hands on one - I'll have to see if we can get a demo here at the college - we're starting to look at a replacement board as we will probably replace our old Obsession 600 in a year or two.

[derekleffew]

...
Anne Valentino
Eos/Ion product manager
ETC

Hi Anne,
Welcome (back) to the booth. So Sarah, Dustin, Chris, and Mr. Terry (and others) must have gotten to you. We won't rest until we have every employee of ETC as a member! ("Hi, I'm George, and I personally assembled all of gafftaper's SourceFours, right here in Middleton, WI, USA.") Maybe we need an ETC group, so we can tell who each of you are/what you do, OR just post the entire ETC directory here, to take some of the burden off SteveT.

If only other manufacturers could see the benefits of joining Control Booth and supporting their products... (kelite excepted, of course.)

I'm still trying to find a time to have Randy Pybas demo the Eos and Ion in Las Vegas, but I'm looking forward to it.

Once again, welcome, and don't be a stranger. See this thread.

Derek

[soundman]

Got the demo today, was pretty compact but for the list price you can not beat it. I was a little taken back that its closer to an obsession than the expression. Like any board in the upper tier of consoles it will do anything you want it to. The work around for not having a release button is pretty simple but if your JUST doing conventionals the expression still might be better for inexperienced users.

[soundlight]

Got the demo today, was pretty compact but for the list price you can not beat it. I was a little taken back that its closer to an obsession than the expression. Like any board in the upper tier of consoles it will do anything you want it to. The work around for not having a release button is pretty simple but if your JUST doing conventionals the expression still might be better for inexperienced users.

I honestly like the obsession better than the expression, and I've never really liked the release button. I just do [channels] [out]. As someone once said, and I agree with this, "the obsession thinks more like I do". I really like the ION (other than the lack of display buttons!) just from using the OLE, and I really hope to get my hands on one soon.

[SteveB]

If only other manufacturers could see the benefits of joining Control Booth and supporting their products... (kelite excepted, of course.)
I'm still trying to find a time to have Randy Pybas demo the Eos and Ion in Las Vegas, but I'm looking forward to it.
Once again, welcome, and don't be a stranger. See this thread.
Derek

I follow the ETC users forum, especially the Eos/Ion section, where I actually learn quite a bit about the console, without actually seeing one !.

Ya' all need to head on over there on occasion, as it truly is a remarkable development to have a manufacturer (so rare in my 32 years in the business) and all the assorted folks involved in development, ACTUALLY LISTENING TO THE CLIENTS, as the product is developing.

I cannot say enough about what a remarkable job all the ETC folks have done to make the users feel like we are getting a product that works for us. There is a good presence on The LightNetwork from Martin, High End and Jands, but the ETC forum is in a different category and is not just a ***** session, but also a learning experience for the users and developers. I'm sure Ann and Dan Duffy and the other folks can testify about how important the web has become to them as they steer the product down the path to excellence.

Bravo to them all !.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College



d

[soundman]

I honestly like the obsession better than the expression, and I've never really liked the release button. I just do [channels] [out].

Will that take the channel to zero or what the tracked in value is?

[derekleffew]

I honestly like the obsession better than the expression, ... As someone once said, and I agree with this, "the obsession thinks more like I do"...

I don't think that's me you're quoting, but I have said that. Here's the thing: The Obsession can trace it's roots back to Tharon Musser's Light Palette; whereas the Expression philsophies go back to at least the Kliegl Performer, if not the Q-File. Both work, but are different. My (rare) complaint about Vision thru Express(ion) is "sometimes you hit <enter> sometimes you don't." Where as a "Command-line board" (LP, Obs, HogII/3, grandMA, et al.) will not do anything until <enter> / <*> is pressed. After using the Expression line, solely, for at least 10 years, going to the ObsessionII was a challenge, as I had forgotten to how to press <enter.> And how do you release channels? <Goto> <Q> <zero> <*>? (Rhetorical, as that's the way it used to be.)

I follow the ETC users forum, especially the Eos/Ion section, where I actually learn quite a bit about the console, without actually seeing one !.

Ya' all need to head on over there on occasion, as it truly is a remarkable development to have a manufacturer (so rare in my 32 years in the business) and all the assorted folks involved in development, ACTUALLY LISTENING TO THE CLIENTS, as the product is developing. And making requested changes/betterments, practically before our very eyes. Link to ETC User's Forum. Also, HES, Martin, and MA Lighting all have similar forums. Should be easily found via a google search, or hunting through the mfg.'s website.

I cannot say enough about what a remarkable job all the ETC folks have done to make the users feel like we are getting a product that works for us. There is a good presence on The LightNetwork from Martin, High End and Jands, but the ETC forum is in a different category and is not just a ***** session, but also a learning experience for the users and developers. How can you forget Vista??? Users on LN are as vehement in their love for Vista (oh sorry, you said Jands, but you forgot grandMA), as we are here for ETC. You'd think from reading posts over there that Vista is the solution to every problem. While I agree it's unique, I just don't get it. And I've never seen one in use. Not bashing, just offering opinion/experience.

I'm sure Ann and Dan Duffy and the other folks can testify about how important the web has become to them as they steer the product down the path to excellence.

Bravo to them all !...

Hear hear! ETC RULZ!!! Although for the time being (at least until my Eos/Ion demo) my favorite desk is still grandMA.

[Pie4Weebl]

Well that take the channel to zero or what the tracked in value is?

Exactly! That's the one thing I really dislike about the obsession!

[icewolf08]

Will that take the channel to zero or what the tracked in value is?

Exactly! That's the one thing I really dislike about the obsession!

Right, so there is no tracking native console with a release button, if you can find one point it out. The Express(ion) line are not tracking native, they are just tracking capable.

When you are in LIVE hitting: chan# [@] [ENTER] will take the channel to 0. Or hitting: chan# [OUT] will take the channel to 0, that is the definition of out. In strand speak it is the [OFF] key, or you could set your [USER] key for that as well.

However, in BLIND or PREVIEW hitting: chan# [@] [ENTER] only takes the commands off that channel. Which is kind of like what soundman was thinking. This command sets the channel to the level it was in the previous cue. To take a channel to 0 in BLIND you have to hit: chan# [@] 0 [ENTER].

I personally hate the release button. It totally throws me off. It is always an extra step, no matter what. If you record a cue, you still have to release, the concept of captured channels is just a PITA. On the tracking native consoles (Obsession, Strand, etc) once you record a cue, you are in that cue, channels are "released", and taking the next cue does just that, no need to worry about captured channels.

[derekleffew]

Tell us how you really feel Icewolf08, no need to be guarded around us. I bet you'd hate having to "clear the programmer."

[LX23]

I've been using the ION for about 7 months, and I think it's great!
in response to no "release" button, you could also just hit "sneak enter" as well as "Goto Q 0 enter" - both do the same thing. but using sneak is faster and you can select the channels you want to release instead of only all the channels.
also, in response to recording ques then having to clear the programmer. You can go into settings and disable Auto-Playback. This will record a Q normally, but instead of going directly into that Q it will not take control of the channels.

[xander]

Oh, come on! Your making it way two easy! Yore a graduate of which university? I'm guess it was a bassetball scholarship?

God, I hope you made all of those mistakes on purpose...

[Esoteric]

Personally I love the idea of captuting channels and I miss the release button (I still say to my programmers "record, enter, release"), because I can override channel levels in a cue containing those channels already, rather than a tracking console where the next time it encounters those channels, it takes their native value instead of the new value.

I also miss the release button when I want to run a console in non-tracking mode (which I often want to do).

But if you have $6k+ to spend then the Ion is a good console.

Mike

[beachcombah15]

Speaking of the Ion, and Release/Sneak Enter etc. How do you guys prefer to program your shows on the ion, or any tracking console for that matter? Do you record your cue then sneak enter or change the values that you want to change from the last cue?

[SteveB]

Speaking of the Ion, and Release/Sneak Enter etc. How do you guys prefer to program your shows on the ion, or any tracking console for that matter? Do you record your cue then sneak enter or change the values that you want to change from the last cue?

One of the nice things about tracking consoles in general and the Ion/Eos in particular, is once you set channel levels via the command line and press enter, then record to a cue (and press Enter again), the cue is immediately residing on the fader and there's no need to load the cue and press release.

Thus with a tracking console, you are always building on the last cue called on the fader.

Saves a TON of time over an Expression/Express syntax, IMO, but then I've always been a Light Palette kind of guy.

Steve B.

[jmabray]

Speaking of the Ion, and Release/Sneak Enter etc. How do you guys prefer to program your shows on the ion, or any tracking console for that matter? Do you record your cue then sneak enter or change the values that you want to change from the last cue?

Well considering that once you record the cue on the Ion, it is then playing back - Sneak, Enter - wouldn't do anything.

Tracking consoles are really made to have the show recorded in order. (at least it's a great deal easier that way) Why not work the way in which your console does?

[mikesmcc]

Question, all, I'm making a decision to purchase this board, but it needs to be Portable... (That's an understatement)... Anyone ever tried or heard of rackmounting ION? I can have a custom portable cabinet built for it to hold it, as well as other lighting rack equipment, and an expansion wing, but it would really be easier if I could just rackmount the thing.. It's 17 inches wide... Surprised it doesn't say anything about rack mounting it on the website or anything... would make my job MUCH easier.

[avkid]

Why not have a case made for it?

Hybrid is very affordable:
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