Repair or buy new?

[Charc]

My main brushes in high school were 30 year old Strand R40 strips and 6" fresnels of the same vintage. And I'll still defend them.
Now charc - think about this - what if your school didn't have access to the foh pipes, your lights were much older, you had a crapbox 5000X as your light board, and only 32 dimmers, only 20 of which worked...what then? I made some great looks with that system, and I learned so much.

I should put my flame suit on, I feel like playing devil's advocate tonight. But everyone, be rest assured it's in friendly jest, and the desire to learn through discussion.

So Soundlight, are you saying one can only learn to design effectively with 20 dimmers, poor positions, old instruments, and a Crapbox 5000X? I mean, I'm just saying it sounds like that with your post.

Perhaps your gear was better maintained, but I feel like I spend more time with instruments down on the workbench, or trying to make shutter cuts with the ERS from hell than I do doing the design work. (Not that I don't have it better than others! )

Regardless of system, there is no need for us to defend our lighting systems. Who had that quote, I think, on their sig for awhile? "You have to learn every rule before you can break it." Now, of course, there is no rule to designing, but don't you think it is more logical to move into design with a more traditional sense, so you can learn what's going on, before tackling the fun/tricky situations with limited stuff? These gigs will undoubtedly resurface for all of us, they seem to be a fun challenge, but it doesn't mean we have to go silently into the night.

[mbandgeek]

I'm quite familiar with the 1KL6 series, I have 20 in the air right now on the mainstage, an additional 4-6 in the air in the secondary space, plus 4-6 more in the inventory. I can complain about them and still work effectively with them, can't I?
A stage light isn't a stage light. Don't get Greenia's history lesson in here. Don't be offended. I too have learned primarily on the 1KL6 series. I can't say it's helped me much. The first time I encountered a S4 it took me near 15 minutes to figure out the gel-frame clip.
Awh, lighten up mbandgeek.

okay. say you walked into a theater with nothing but track lighting, controlled by architectural dimmers. Now, imagine that you have 30 minutes to figure out the system and run a show. Now imagine walking into your current theater with the 1kl's and an actual dimmer system. There is no way that you can tell me that you would rather have track lighting and architectural dimmers, then having the 1k's.

And you can complain about them except you are complaining the wrong way, constructive complaining (if there is such a thing) is much better then flat out "this is crap" mode.

No hard feelings, just defendin' my lights.
KN

[Charc]

okay. say you walked into a theater with nothing but track lighting, controlled by architectural dimmers. Now, imagine that you have 30 minutes to figure out the system and run a show. Now imagine walking into your current theater with the 1kl's and an actual dimmer system. There is no way that you can tell me that you would rather have track lighting and architectural dimmers, then having the 1k's.
And you can complain about them except you are complaining the wrong way, constructive complaining (if there is such a thing) is much better then flat out "this is crap" mode.
No hard feelings, just defendin' my lights.
KN

mbandgeek,
If only have 30 minutes in either scenario, I'd much rather have track lighting. Positions are essentially totally pre-defined, nothing really to alter, just where it's pointing, and architectural control systems aren't hard to figure out. Much better than having to walk into a theatre and hang, focus, circuit, figure out the dimmer situation, and the board in 30 minutes.

If anyone complains, I can just blame it on the idiot who installed track lighting in a theatre. (Aka: Our third space... )

[soundlight]

I should put my flame suit on, I feel like playing devil's advocate tonight. But everyone, be rest assured it's in friendly jest, and the desire to learn through discussion.

So Soundlight, are you saying one can only learn to design effectively with 20 dimmers, poor positions, old instruments, and a Crapbox 5000X? I mean, I'm just saying it sounds like that with your post.

Perhaps your gear was better maintained, but I feel like I spend more time with instruments down on the workbench, or trying to make shutter cuts with the ERS from hell than I do doing the design work. (Not that I don't have it better than others! )

Regardless of system, there is no need for us to defend our lighting systems. Who had that quote, I think, on their sig for awhile? "You have to learn every rule before you can break it." Now, of course, there is no rule to designing, but don't you think it is more logical to move into design with a more traditional sense, so you can learn what's going on, before tackling the fun/tricky situations with limited stuff? These gigs will undoubtedly resurface for all of us, they seem to be a fun challenge, but it doesn't mean we have to go silently into the night.

My main point is to not say that what you currently have is junk. People joke all the time about having the worst gear around. Yeah, some one has the worst gear around, and that's the person who doesn't have any. Yes, the 1KL was not the best fixture. However, it is what you have. Sweet! You have 1KLs! My other point is that anyone with a semblance of a lighting rig and proper control system in high school should feel incredibly privileged.

I know of nobody (this is the part where someone will correct me) who didn't learn on a pile of junk (or at least what they considered to be a pile of junk in retrospect). Everyone that I've talked to had to overcome major problems and challenges in middle or high school. Having to deal with dozens of problems and sort out various issues gives you the problem-solving skills that you'll need in the real world of entertainment tech. You wouldn't get these if you started in a "traditional sense" of design. This also means that when you finally go to college and you have a fully functional and up-to-date inventory, you appreciate it so much more. I seem to remember that we've had this lively debate at least twice before.

[Charc]

My main point is to not say that what you currently have is junk. People joke all the time about having the worst gear around. Yeah, some one has the worst gear around, and that's the person who doesn't have any. Yes, the 1KL was not the best fixture. However, it is what you have. Sweet! You have 1KLs! My other point is that anyone with a semblance of a lighting rig and proper control system in high school should feel incredibly privileged.
I know of nobody (this is the part where someone will correct me) who didn't learn on a pile of junk (or at least what they considered to be a pile of junk in retrospect). Everyone that I've talked to had to overcome major problems and challenges in middle or high school. Having to deal with dozens of problems and sort out various issues gives you the problem-solving skills that you'll need in the real world of entertainment tech. You wouldn't get these if you started in a "traditional sense" of design. This also means that when you finally go to college and you have a fully functional and up-to-date inventory, you appreciate it so much more. I seem to remember that we've had this lively debate at least twice before.

But Soundlight, it's a good debate everytime!

No, but I'm tired of playing devils advocate now , and I totally agree with you.

As, what I find, an interesting example of what people consider "junk", at my internship, there was often a lot of talking about the Altman 360Q (which they call an "Altman", which confused me when they also had 65Qs in the air. ). Anyways, they were relating a joke by their former Master Electrician, a local LD who I've worked with before, who said if he ever won the lottery he would donate money to the regional theatre company if they agreed to take every 360Q and melt it down, so it could never be used again. They had a big laugh, joked about turning it into seating, and all I could think of was "Noooooo!".

[soundlight]

But Soundlight, it's a good debate everytime!

No, but I'm tired of playing devils advocate now , and I totally agree with you.

As, what I find, an interesting example of what people consider "junk", at my internship, there was often a lot of talking about the Altman 360Q (which they call an "Altman", which confused me when they also had 65Qs in the air. ). Anyways, they were relating a joke by their former Master Electrician, a local LD who I've worked with before, who said if he ever won the lottery he would donate money to the regional theatre company if they agreed to take every 360Q and melt it down, so it could never be used again. They had a big laugh, joked about turning it into seating, and all I could think of was "Noooooo!".

The prosecution rests their case. Yes, it's always a good debate!
Now time to try to fall asleep. I was quite unsuccessful at this last night.

[chieftfac]

Hello, I have a bit of a leg up on everyone. (and one heck of a rant!!) I have worked in mbandgeek's space twice in the past month and 1/2, and to say that these fixtures are old and neglected is a bit of an understatement. I saw significant corosion build-up in the sockets and I think a full tear down is in order. I would step in and help however I have been told by the school maintanence head that my help is not needed. (let's not go there, just to say that theater is not very important to this school, so much so that they are doing the spring musical over at my theater as they can't find time on the schedule at the school for it) I don't think the fixtures have been benched in the 19 years since the school was built, and in half of them either the shutters or the focus knob doesn't work. Now I know, a little TLC and these could be OK fixtures (try to light from FOH with only 7 of these and most are 30˚ and 40˚, AND the throw is about 28 or 29 ft) I know his school and also must say that a significant amount of donated money in the community is going the the school's band trip to China for the 2008 Olympics. I would almost say to abandon the school for the rest of the year and plan on going to a school that cares enough to maintain even the oldest equipment.... (Boy, I'm one angry $oB tonight)...

[Charc]

Hello, I have a bit of a leg up on everyone. (and one heck of a rant!!) I have worked in mbandgeek's space twice in the past month and 1/2, and to say that these fixtures are old and neglected is a bit of an understatement. I saw significant corosion build-up in the sockets and I think a full tear down is in order. I would step in and help however I have been told by the school maintanence head that my help is not needed. (let's not go there, just to say that theater is not very important to this school, so much so that they are doing the spring musical over at my theater as they can't find time on the schedule at the school for it) I don't think the fixtures have been benched in the 19 years since the school was built, and in half of them either the shutters or the focus knob doesn't work. Now I know, a little TLC and these could be OK fixtures (try to light from FOH with only 7 of these and most are 30˚ and 40˚, AND the throw is about 28 or 29 ft) I know his school and also must say that a significant amount of donated money in the community is going the the school's band trip to China for the 2008 Olympics. I would almost say to abandon the school for the rest of the year and plan on going to a school that cares enough to maintain even the oldest equipment.... (Boy, I'm one angry $oB tonight)...

Bam! Looks like I got back-up! Good points to hear, thanks.

[chieftfac]

It's more a question of these fixtures being so neglected they they are no longer worth the effort in time and money. I mean back in January I tried to light a touring group of Suessical with 7 FOH lights and 21 fresnels... CRIPES!! That stage is 50' wide!!! they need both, about 40 S4's AND fix all the 1k's that they can...

[Charc]

It's more a question of these fixtures being so neglected they they are no longer worth the effort in time and money. I mean back in January I tried to light a touring group of Suessical with 7 FOH lights and 21 fresnels... CRIPES!! That stage is 50' wide!!! they need both, about 40 S4's AND fix all the 1k's that they can...

I think we've proved what the OP needs is 20 working dimmers, inaccessible FOH positions, and perhaps some track lighting.

What does he have in terms of dimmers/distribution?

[chieftfac]

It's a twist lock house with a 96 2.4k dimmers. 10 dims dedicated to house lights and at least 12 others not working can't remember what brand rack or control board. 4 floor pockets and 3 electrics though somebody got in there years ago and did some rewiring so now several circuit numbers are wrong. I'd say that half of the 11 FOH circuits don't work. Power to the rack looks good (600 amps) so the bones look good...

I helped them with "Footloose" last spring and brought over 93 fixtures, my ETC board and other things. I can't do that this year so I'm real glad they will be in my space.

[Pie4Weebl]

I'm gonna back charc up. If you learn to do shows in an old theatre with only 20 working dimmers and old crap 1K's, guess what, you will be a less qualified designer than someone who often works on big rigs with lots of modern things, and it will be harder to get good gigs. This is simple fact.

[David Ashton]

20, 30 40 years ago lighting designers were making magical designs with resistance dimmers and lights that are now considered crap.
The actual end product to the audience has not improved at anything like the rate of the of the technology.
Many designers are technology fixated, only using certain brands and models.
It is my experience that designers get in big rigs but fail to have enough time to use all the gear to its potential.[I am guilty of this too].
In short time and imagination can often trump heaps of technology.

[gafftapegreenia]

I swear you're gonna get a big comment from me on this thread in a few days. Now, back to my papers.

[chieftfac]

20, 30 40 years ago lighting designers were making magical designs with resistance dimmers and lights that are now considered crap.
The actual end product to the audience has not improved at anything like the rate of the of the technology.
Many designers are technology fixated, only using certain brands and models.
It is my experience that designers get in big rigs but fail to have enough time to use all the gear to its potential.[I am guilty of this too].
In short time and imagination can often trump heaps of technology.

When you mention "the actual end product", are you speaking of community theater, rep theater, or the industry as a whole? Also, how many show have you designed? I would like to be informed before I comment further.

[SteveB]

I'm gonna back charc up. If you learn to do shows in an old theatre with only 20 working dimmers and old crap 1K's, guess what, you will be a less qualified designer than someone who often works on big rigs with lots of modern things, and it will be harder to get good gigs. This is simple fact.

If you are at an early level in your career where you are only getting gigs that have 20 dimmers and crappola 1KL's, then you may well still be able to learn how to focus your thoughts and get a *design* out of the rig. If you are at that same early level in your career and you're working a space with a big rig and lots of modern things, chances are you are not the designer and you will learn zip about design, except what you learn by paying attention, if you have the time to pay attention, as you are probably just a schlep and carrying heavy objects. Usually the young ones, whose professional resume is not yet filling a page, don't get to design with big rigs. Unless they are lucky, in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time, have a dad/uncle who got the the job and usually all the above.

SB

[David Ashton]

I have been head electrician at major professional theatres and a concert hall starting 1974, first as employee and later as contractor, I am remembering ballets and operas at these venues which ere beautifully lit with what is now considered crap gear, I got bored working in one venue and toured round the state and interstate with over 100 tours. I have designed many shows although mainly commercial comedy which is mainly just bright, but also the range of shows except opera.Mainly on the tours it was my job to re-create the designers vision within the practical restraints of the venues gear and crews [many volunteer] in the country areas.It was said that I was one of the best lighting designers in the country, not much good in the city, but great in the country.[Australian joke]

[chieftfac]

"great in the country" I like that!!! OK, you have more experience than I do (I've only done design, both SFX and lighting, for 147 full theatrical shows, though I've been a tech of some sort on over 1100) I'm sure we are both of the same mind... "you have to know the basics so you can use a big rig to it's fullest potential" and you are very correct about some designers being "technology fixated". However, I think that on the whole, shows are looking better because of advances in technology, and it's easier to get a great design because of it, (if the designer remembers the basics)

(added)....I shouldn't say it's easier (is it ever easy??) I should say I can more fully realize my designs and explore my creativity because of advances in technology...

I work in one space that only has 24 dimmers and 37 fixtures and I can get some great shows out of that space. (18' proscenium and it seats 124) The rig in my theater is 96 dimmers and 178 fixtures (30' proscenium and it seats 335) That is because the rigs are sized for the spaces. In the OP's theater you can't even get a decent general wash on the stage as some of the fixtures are sized wrong and there is not enough of them.

Like I said we seem to be of the same mind (lighting basics) but there is a point when there is simply not enough tools to do the job for the size of the space, much less learn about it.

Also, (and I feel like I'm telling tales here) the maintenance staff will not let any students even touch the fixtures much less run a show (the drama teacher is not allowed to have her students learn about the tech side of things) and it was major act of god for me to do a refocus for our rentals back in January. (I would have let the house man do it, but he just doesn't know much about lighting or seem to have the drive to learn) mbandgeek (OP) is not in the greatest environment for learning theater

In short I agree with everything in your last post except that the end product has not shown as much improvement as the technology has improved.
I feel on the whole it has...

[chieftfac]

I Have just been informed that the school show at my theater has been scrubbed. Support staff is committed to the band trip...