Carbon Arc Troupers

[Oldschool]

I am a newbie and found this site while looking up info on Troupers. I am in the business of selling used AV and lighting gear online. We just received a pair of Strong Super Troupers (type 19601-8) and a few dozen boxes of Marble Production Carbons - both positive and negitive. Even though my handle on this site is Oldschool, I have never set up a Carbon spot. So here is the question......Is there still a market for these guys? They appear to have been dorment for some time - Are they safe to operate - will a venue still allow them on property? Is there anyone in the Atlanta area that is familiar with the set up and would drop me a note or a call? I guess that is enough questions for my first post. Thank you in advance for any help or information you may provide.

[JD]

The full instruction manual is still online at their website: Strong Entertainment Lighting » Home
The site will not let people direct link, so what you want to do is go there, click on Resource Center, Select the following:

Strong Followspots >
Trouper Family >
Super Trouper (Carbon Arc) >
Instruction Manual >

As for using them, I know indoors is a no-no due to ozone and other reasons. They contain Asbestos as well.

A real classic! I used to love them, and probably spent better than 500 hours running them as an op.

Makes me long for yesterday

[Oldschool]

John - Thanks for the reply and link info. I already had the manual and it talks about the "art" of striking the carbon and if you do it wrong it blows out the core material on the positive carbon. This definitely makes me not want to mess with them too much. I think the broader questions are really what you spoke to regarding indoor use and the fact that they contain Asbestos. Still wondering if there is an Atlanta connection out there.

[JD]

Welders know well about the "art" of striking an arc. Yea, a bad strike can mess up the tips a bit, but they usually straighten out in a minute or two. It's really simple:

1) Power off.
2) Rack out the holders and install the carbons.
3) Open the iris and douser and look in the mirror....
4) You will see a little white bead reflected in the reflector. (Light coming backwards from the lens.) Adjust the carbon tips so that they are about a 1/4 inch apart, with the bead in the center.
5) Close up the light, close the douser and power it up.
6) Using the forward handle (+ or Suprex holder), pull it back until the tips touch (you will hear the arc) and then let the spring action pull it forward like you are letting the clutch out on a car with a manual transmission.
7) Align the arc gap and forward/backward position using the projection card, or open the douser and adjust for the most even light field. Too tight an arc will make it yellow, too wide an arc will make it blue and it may sputter and drop out.

Your best market for these would be with collectors and museums. Most of us love the light due to growing up with it, and like a fireplace, it has a "romantic" charm! As for actual performance use, I don't think it is generally allowed.

Shame though, I still feel it has better spectral qualities then the newer xenons & HMIs.

[Van]

I wasn't aware that there were any reg's against thier use, just that they needed to be preperly vented etc. As far as Asbestos goes doesn't strong have an update kit for them? remember not all asbetos is bad. < silly but true> There are conversion kits as well that will allow you to update a carbon arc to an hmi, or is that something that has gone out of style as well?

[LightStud]

The conversion kits available in the 1980s were to convert the carbon-arc to a Xenon source, not HMI. Most localities' Clean Air Acts would prohibit the use of a device that emits massive amounts of carbon monoxide indoors. Even if the fixtures come with a 30-year supply of carbons, no one will want them.

The fixture was discontinued by Strong in 1982 for many valid reasons. Though many LDs lament their loss, today they would be considered unsafe and possibly illegal. Plus the fact that expert operators are becoming extinct daily.

[SteveB]

Plus the fact that expert operators are becoming extinct daily.

It's not quite that bad. many of us "Expert Operators" will (hopefully) be around another 30 years and having operated countless carbon Troupers, Supers and Gladiators in too many venues (my own included), I will NEVER forget how to run one.

Steve B.

[derekleffew]

For the youngsters who have no idea what is being discussed.

[JD]

Though many LDs lament their loss,

<lament>
....lament ... lament ... lament .....
</lament>

Yea, I did the Xenon upgrade on a few of mine. May still be available and would turn it into a valuable piece! The only problem I had was that the transformers were in the bases and if you removed them, the bases were too lightweight. So, you had a heavy base, and a new ballast box for the xenon lamp. Some of the last Supers build had the separate transformer box as pictured in Derek's post above. Those would be an easy swap-out. Not sure which models you have. Way back when, the kit was about $3,500 and would turn the antique boat anchor into something that would compete with a $10,000 spot these days. Food for thought...

Plus the fact that expert operators are becoming extinct daily.

Actually, there is a huge untapped pool of operators that never ran a trouper.... Projectionists! The changeover in the movie theater industry was pretty slow so most "non-young" projectionists have run carbon arc projectors. Whenever I was short a spot op back in the 80's, I would check with the projectionist's union.

[Dustincoc]

One of the small theaters in Buffalo still uses Carbon Arc movie projectors. They also have a Wurlitzer organ that is used regularly but looks like like frankenstein(they collect parts from Wulrlitzers in places that are being demo'ed and add them to theirs.

Edit:
It's the Riviera Theatre in Buffalo.

Thay also still use 25Hz power in parts of the Basement(It's too expensive to have the place rewired, It's mainly a volunteer run theatre). If I remember right from last time I was on the stage, they still have a resistance dimmer board SR

[SteveB]

[QUOTE=Dustincoc;101606]One of the small theaters in Buffalo still uses Carbon Arc movie projectors. T/QUOTE]

We still use carbon projectors, 2x35mm, 1x16mm. The projectionist (whose on the SMPTE board, or some such) loves the light quality.

The 16mm rear "lamp house" is made by Strong, whose follow spot business is a side to their projection business.

I for one, do not miss my carbon supers. I have 2 Lycian 3kw xenons whose light quality is every bit as good as the Supers, as well as it being tons easier to train operators.

I used to spend a lot of time tracking down carbons and reflectors (Marble Co. in Nashville - hope they are still in business - nice folks), as well as hard to find stuff such as positive jaw rests, slag buckets, etc... I got a lot of stuff out of the Met Opera once, after they converted to xenon. They had resorted to making their own parts - but they're the Met, after all and can do that kind of stuff.

SB

[Van]

....Most localities' Clean Air Acts would prohibit the use of a device that emits massive amounts of carbon monoxide indoors. .....

I don't think anyone would be using a Carbon Arc without proper ventalation, unless of course they had a death wish. If you are ever in a theatre with a carbon arc light source and it isn't vented..... run away.

Even if the fixtures come with a 30-year supply of carbons, no one will want them.....

Gotta disagree, I think you'll find folks all over , and most especially collectors that will gobble 'em up.


and I Ain't dead yet and have over 4k hours on Supers and Glads.

[JD]

Not sure about the "massive amounts of carbon monoxide" part. It's an open air arc, should have a very thorough conversion to co2. I was in a pretty tight un-vented space with supers at least once and don't remember any ill effects. Nothing like the time I was behind a school bus and really did get a case of co poisoning. The problem with arc lights had far more to do with ozone and lye ash being inhaled. (All that not-good white powder we would clean out of them.) Ozone will actually give you a bit of a buzz, shame about that eating lung tissue part

Looking back, I would never recommend being in a non-vented area. Same cautions apply to welders using carbon cutting rods. (google)

Still a lot of carbon arc sky pans around.

[dramatech]

The Polk Theater in Lakeland Florida, ( a restored Vaudville house ) still uses a carbon arc super trouper right next to a Xenon unit. It has a flexible chimney with ventilation fan to exaust the bad stuff. I ran it a couple of times last year. The visiting LDs are blown away. One young female LD thought that we were kidding, and had never heard of carbon arc.

[Oldschool]

Thanks to everyone that chimed in on this topic. Your responses confirmed what I thought - That this unit is no longer valid as it is currently configured. If you have (or know anyone that may) have an interest in a pair of these units, they will be up on our eBay auction site next week. Check it out and thanks again to all for your input.

[LightStud]

I for one will be watching that auction with interest, but not bidding. I suspect that the winning bid, if any, will be less than the shipping costs.

[BillESC]

Oh the many hours of my youth spent running a Super Trouper.

Anyone here ever operate a Genarco? Now that was a beast.

[rmarston]

I also loved the Super Trouper - many hours operating. Anybody operated the Strong Gladiator - I operted that many hours in stadium productions - lots of good memories.

[BillESC]

I also loved the Super Trouper - many hours operating. Anybody operated the Strong Gladiator - I operted that many hours in stadium productions - lots of good memories.

Yep, on the roof of Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburg for the Beach Boys circa late 70's.

[dramatech]

In 1994, I rebuilt 4 Gadiators, and operated one of them on an iceskating show where the stage was 420 feet away. Talk about some precise movements.

[thenelsontwins]

The carbon arc retrofit to Xenon is pretty decent, certainly Strong still makes it, although I have not had to purchase one. I did some service on one not long ago. It certainly beats the hell out of the old carbon arc ... finesse issues among the other negative issues carbon arcs present.

Best of luck!

[SteveB]

The carbon arc retrofit to Xenon is pretty decent, certainly Strong still makes it, although I have not had to purchase one. I did some service on one not long ago. It certainly beats the hell out of the old carbon arc ... finesse issues among the other negative issues carbon arcs present.

Best of luck!

Maybe my memories are shot, but...

I do not recall Strong ever manufacturing a xenon lamp upgrade for any of their follow spots. A quickie search on their website didn't indicate one either. There was a US company thta sold a retro kit - Xebex or something like that, although a Google of Xebex reveals a Japanese company, that used to make the ColorArc units for Colortran.

The xenon lamp upgrade I recall for a Super Trouper, had a new power supply as well as a different reflector and was, in my opinion a poor replacement for the carbon units. My memory was the lamp wasn't bright enough, 1.6kw maybe ?, and the 2 theaters I encountered while on tour that used them, were not all that happy with them and I chose not to purchase the upgrade (late 80's) based on mediocre recommendations at the time.

So are my memories scrambled ?.

Steve B.

[JD]

There were several version on the market but I don't think any of them were built by Strong. I don't remember changing the reflectors on mine. (I had metal reflectors, quite heavy.) I think it was recommended if you still had glass reflectors.

I don't remember them being that bad, but I don't remember them being 1.6k. I thought the 1.6k kit was for the Strong Troupers (smaller model) and the 2k was for the Super. I do remember the strange magnet that had to be installed to stabilize the arc. I remember converting two of them, but 6 months later I sold that part of the business.

Considering that barely a month goes by between "Super Trouper" threads appearing, maybe it should be made a permanent thread!

We all have fond Super Trouper stories to tell! After all, it was such a standard of the industry, it was in most boiler plate tech riders with a blank space to fill in the number requested!

[derekleffew]

Here is the ad for the most famous Xenon "upgrade kit," from mid 1980s Theatre Crafts.

http://s347.photobucket.com/albums/p...eisley1186.jpg

In 1991, a casino showroom here in Las Vegas had one of these and one carbon-arc unit. The carbon-arc unit appeared brighter and had a different "quality of light," as we have discussed previously. The carbon-arc unit was subsequently replaced with a "real" Xenon Super Trouper, which was about 150% brighter than the conversion unit (0.3+0.15 ND taped on the front to get them to match).

The history of Strong International is well documented, including the birth of the Super Trouper in 1956, in the book: The Followspot Guide, by Nick Mobsby. Entertainment Technology Press, 2007.

[Les]

I still think its funny that ABBA wrote a song about them.

Supapa Toupapa
Lights are gonna find me, shining like the sun...

Why do I even know that lyric.

[derekleffew]

Why do I even know that lyric.

The question should be "How can you NOT know that lyric?" No other lighting fixture, not even the SourceFour™ has a song written about it. Link to video. Note the the fixture pictured is a CCT Aimslite or Silhouette--not even close to a Super Trouper!

[Van]

Yep, on the roof of Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburg for the Beach Boys circa late 70's.

The story was often told at my college of the time we hauled 6 count 'em 6 Galdiators, up the STEPS of the Press booth, to the roof and then set up and operated them for a Beach Boys concert, In Summer, In Oklahoma. Then the LD, < a decidedly prickish little English guy> < God, I hope he's not a member here.> Starts complaining about playing, "....These piss-ant little one horse towns..." Then came the topper, when he really started bitching he created the line for which he became famous at our little school, " I ain't doing an F-ing thing 'till I get a F-ing Beer and it better be an F-ing Heineken." all this on Headset. He was a joy.
I like the Gladiator, as long as I don't have to set it up.

[SteveB]

Here is the ad for the most famous Xenon "upgrade kit," from mid 1980s [

Thanks for finding this, Derek

I don't actually recall anyone else making conversions, but this one I do remember.

Steve B.

[JD]

a decidedly prickish little English guy

Yea, there were a lot of them! I remember a gig, I think at the Allentown fairgrounds where the union crew got so sick of the LD, the cut the com cable! I think it comes from touring your guts out until you are just burned out and mad at the world.


Super troupers made it into a number of songs, the one running through my mind has lyrics (paraphrased due to neuron death):
"Under the hot lights, where the Super Trouper shines, you got to keep your love, keep your love alive."

The kit shown above, fitted into a regular Trouper, was the one often found in Lighting Dimensions magazine. The kits I got were different. I think I got them through Bash lighting in NJ at the time. Not all that different. Light output seamed as bright, but "thinner" as in not as strong a spectrum. (some colors, especially reds, were weak compared to the carbon arc.) The big problem was that you had to keep the heavy transformer mounted in the base (old style) for stability, and now you were also carrying around and equally heavy ballast box too!

[Oldschool]

LightStud,

Not sure if this is allowed (so I will beg forgiveness instead of permission) but you can check out the auction at eBay item # 130250161583, and yes shipping will be a beast on these. There are several good pictures for those who are not familiar with Troupers............

[RichMoore]

I love this site!!!!

Where else can you get a flashback like this with the Supers?

My last time to use one was in the late '80s in San Antonio, Texas. The unit was so worn out that the automatic carbon feed was dead, so for the entire show, I had to hand crank the carbon feed. What fun!

[JD]

What a beautiful pair! If it wasn't that they weigh half as much as the planet, I would be tempted!

Anyway, on the bright side they have the newer style bases with the separate transformers so a xenon conversion would be easier. BTW, I am told the old power supplies make great DC welding supplies for smaller jobs!

Good luck with the sale!

[LightStud]

Agreed. Those have to be the newest carbon-arc units I've ever seen. Quite likely they were some of the last off the line in 1981. According to Strong, in 1978 the production ratio of Xenon Super Troupers to carbon-arc Super Troupers was one-to-one.

[TimMiller]

can you get me a shipping quote to 77041? PM me the details. I may keep these around for out door shows . They cant be more than the 10 cybers i had shipped from california the other day .

[Oldschool]

can you get me a shipping quote to 77041? PM me the details. I may keep these around for out door shows . They cant be more than the 10 cybers i had shipped from california the other day .

Not sure if you are joshing regarding the freight quote - If you are serious, I would point you to the auction and ask that you use the links there to request info. It was not my intention to pimp the auction on this forum. I originally came looking for info / opinions on the spots and then put the auction site out there so folks could see what everyone was reminiscing over. Thanks!

[JD]

Not sure if you are joshing regarding the freight quote

I doubt he is joshing. It's like buying a 63' Corvette. Sure, you're going to make some use of it, but the primary reason isn't the practicality, it's just cool to have one!

I had to stop myself from measuring off floor space yesterday

I'd PM him the quote!

[TimMiller]

heck its within my price range so far, i wouldnt mind picking them up. :D.

[gpdesigner]

A company I use to work for out of Boston had 6 or 7 Arc Trooper in the basement. god those things were ancient . . .
right out of the 70's. They looked like old military rocket launchers lined up along the basement wall. Almost like out dated robocops ready to lurch to life with a flip of the switch.
Didn't you have to were like Eye protection to operate one of those?
gp

[derekleffew]

Calling something "ancient...right out of the 70s" is NOT a good way to make friends with the elder generation of Control Booth Members, gpdesigner. Assuming you've read all of the posts of the thread, you'd realize that many have nostalgic memories of the Carbon-Arc Super Trouper.

No, the Carbon-Arc required no more eye protection than is currently required with today's Xenon Super Trouper, or any other discharge light source, as used in 90% of Moving Lights. I suppose IF one operated the carbon-arc fixture with the lamphouse door open, which would require defeating the safety switch, one would be exposed to more UV radiation than other arc sources, as there would be no glass to filter it.

As for size and appearance, there's not a lot of difference between today's models and the Super Trouper of 1956.

[gpdesigner]

Calling something "ancient...right out of the 70s" is NOT a good way to make friends with the elder generation of Control Booth Members, gpdesigner. Assuming you've read all of the posts of the thread, you'd realize that many have nostalgic memories of the Carbon-Arc Super Trouper.

I read through the posts, I don't think what I said was alienating . . . . I would think techies have a thicker skin than that. I think my post was meant as my colorful interpretation of an old inanimate production piece made in the same vein as this one . . .

and would turn the antique boat anchor into something that would compete with a $10,000 spot these days. Food for thought...

or this one . . . .

It certainly beats the hell out of the old carbon arc ... finesse issues among the other negative issues carbon arcs present.

Yes, derekleffew I read all of the posts and that is cool that people have fond memories of the Arc Spot, and doing shows . . hanging off the high steel or purched on catwalks . . . . . I am not trying to take away from that,
how can I . . . . . . . . . ?

and if they don't like me because I made a colorful post . . . oh well!
gp