Lamping an Altman 360Q 6x16...

[belford]

Hi there!

I recently bought an old Altman 360Q 6x16 that I'm trying to restore to its former glory... This is the golden/brown colored version.

Now the question arises what lamp to use... there was a FEP 1000W installed.
The label on the lamp says "use EHD/EHG 750W max"... but according to a quick search, often a 1kW lamp is used nevertheless.

After more searching, i discovered the following on the forums:
- original lamp: FEL; 1kW.. not very efficient
- newer lamp: EHD (500W) or EHG (750W)... more efficient?
- FLK 575W... even more efficient?

So... which one is used best for a 6x16... and how does the FEP fit in here?
Which one of those gives best bang for the buck (erm.. Watt..) and which one is the brightest in total, regardless of efficiency?

Sorry if this was already answered somewhere... I took quite some time browsing all the threads - lots of statements, some confusing.. but I was not able to extract the essence I required.

Can anyone please clarify?

(I only was able to locate the FEP at Thomann Germany (large distributor around here). Are the other types more hard to get?)

Besides... are the more spotty (i.e. narrower beam/field angle) type fixtures less efficient than the wider types? The comments on the forums seem to indicate this, as 1kW seems to be installed mostly in the more spotty ones?

Belford.

[Les]

I have never heard of a FEP but FEL is a commonly used lamp, though it voids the UL listing. Really though, that was in the "dark" ages. In this day in age with more efficient alternatives on the market, the lamp I would generally put in a 360Q is the GLA or GLC lamp. You get just about as much punch, but you only use a little more than half the power and it is much better for your instrument (and the UL listing).

"More spotty"? Is that a technical term? Well, the narrower beam angles were the best candidates for FEL lamps, mostly for their likelihood of having a longer throw distance. Also, the intense heat of a 1k FEL would likely crack the rear lens of a 6x9, and sometimes the 6x12's.

If you are wanting to restore these to their former glory (and keep them there) I highly recommend that you don't use a FEL in there. There are much more efficient lamps, and the FEL tears them up pretty bad inside. I just parted out some 360Q's that came from a rental house that used FEL's standard. Paint was burned off the inside of the light, and everything was warped, rusted and seized.

[Esoteric]

Yeah, we used FELs back 8-10 years ago in in those units. But I would not do it now. There are much better lamps, like the GLA or GLC.

Mike

[kicknargel]

I've use the FLK-LL 575--I think they work great. They have almost as much or more output than an FLK, and at 575w, you can gang up to four in a 2.4K dimmer. I used the long life--you trade off a little color temp for a lot of economy.

It seems that this lamp is similar to the GLAs mention above-not sure the difference.

[belford]

Hi Guys...!

You can see an FEP here:
GE Lighting FEP CP77 Leuchtmittel
Maybe it is just the 230V version of the FEL?

Lampen für Sockel G-9,5
Which of those would be best to use in the 360Q? Couldn't find a GLA/GLC lamp, but some of those look similar to a GLA/GLC...

Les, no, "spotty" is not a technical term... I meant as in "more tendency towards spot behavior, i.e. less beam angle". Why would the narrower beam angles be a better candidate for a FEL lamp? Do the disadvantages of the FEL not come into play so much for longer focal lengths?

For the FLK, I'd have to install another socket, right? What options do I have without installing another socket?

So I suppose the GLA would be the right choice for me...?

Thanks...
Belford.

[derekleffew]

Originally Posted by belford

...I meant as in "more tendency towards spot behavior, i.e. less beam angle". Why would the narrower beam angles be a better candidate for a FEL lamp? ...

Narrower beam angle = fixture intended for a longer throw = higher wattage lamp needed.

Originally Posted by belford

...Do the disadvantages of the FEL not come into play so much for longer focal lengths?...

One of the primary disadvantages of the FEL is excessive heat, and a longer focal length fixture has more interior volume to dissipate the heat. Even in a line of fixtures listed and intended to take the FEL, using it in 6x9s and 4.5x6.5s can cause lens breakage due to excessive heat.

I don't think the Altman 360Q was ever intended or listed for use outside of North America. Since you're in Germany, you can use whatever lamp you want--the page you cited lists both 230V and 240V lamps. What is the maximum supply voltage at the fixture? The 230V FEP will always be the brightest available lamp, but you won't be happy with the lamp life if your voltage is 240V. The HX600 and HX800 lamps may be more efficient, but won't be brighter.

Also, what is your intended use for this fixture? Having only one unit of a type is not very practical for a theatre--it would always be a special, and one useful only for throws of 10m-20m. Any less than 10m and the pool diameter is very small, thus a lower wattage lamp may be fine. For display/demonstration purposes, I'd go with the lowest wattage available at the appropriate voltage.

[belford]

Originally Posted by derekleffew

Narrower beam angle = fixture intended for a longer throw = higher wattage lamp needed.

Why is a higher wattage lamp needed for a longer throw? Doesn't this depend on illuminated area in square feet only?
For example, let's say I have a 6x12 at 30 ft (producing a spot of diameter 14ft) versus a 6x16 at 40 ft (also resulting in a spot of diameter 14 ft). When both of them are lamped with 1kW FEL, shouldn't they have equal brightness? Or are the longer focal width 3600Qs indeed less efficient?

Originally Posted by derekleffew

One of the primary disadvantages of the FEL is excessive heat, and a longer focal length fixture has more interior volume to dissipate the heat. Even in a line of fixtures listed and intended to take the FEL, using it in 6x9s and 4.5x6.5s can cause lens breakage due to excessive heat.

Ok I understand that.

Originally Posted by derekleffew

I don't think the Altman 360Q was ever intended or listed for use outside of North America. Since you're in Germany, you can use whatever lamp you want--the page you cited lists both 230V and 240V lamps. What is the maximum supply voltage at the fixture? The 230V FEP will always be the brightest available lamp, but you won't be happy with the lamp life if your voltage is 240V. The HX600 and HX800 lamps may be more efficient, but won't be brighter.

We have 230 V here, with some tolerance. I think you'll never see 240 V at the fixture, also due to cable losses etc, even if there is some voltage variance.
Will probably try both the FEP and the HX800 then. What about the GKV on the page I quoted?

Originally Posted by derekleffew

Also, what is your intended use for this fixture? Having only one unit of a type is not very practical for a theatre--it would always be a special, and one useful only for throws of 10m-20m. Any less than 10m and the pool diameter is very small, thus a lower wattage lamp may be fine. For display/demonstration purposes, I'd go with the lowest wattage available at the appropriate voltage.

It's for film use, as a "special light effect" in case needed. Having the option for different wattage lamps here is nice, because you can't dim them down (color shift will be too obvious).

Thanks so far!

Belford.

[Les]

Originally Posted by belford

Why is a higher wattage lamp needed for a longer throw? Doesn't this depend on illuminated area in square feet only?
For example, let's say I have a 6x12 at 30 ft (producing a spot of diameter 14ft) versus a 6x16 at 40 ft (also resulting in a spot of diameter 14 ft). When both of them are lamped with 1kW FEL, shouldn't they have equal brightness? Or are the longer focal width 3600Qs indeed less efficient?

Sort of, but not really. The greater the throw distance, the higher the lumen loss, thus the need for more intensity over longer throw distances. This is why a followspot designed for a long throw (say 200 feet) will use a high output arc lamp, whereas a short-to-medium throw followspot will likely use a lower output halogen lamp. The greater the atmosphere the light is having to travel through, the brighter of a lamp you will need to achieve the same intensity of the same type of light at a closer position.

And generally, narrow beam spread instruments are just as efficient as the wider focal length instruments. It all depends on the distance from the light source to the subject being lit.

[ship]

Thanks for the links, a few lamps or brands I was not aware of and a new supplier possibly to supply shows in Europe from.

The FEP is the 230v version of a FEL. As with Len, I recommend against using either lamp due to heat which will more quickly wear especially its lampholder if not wiring out. (This is especially important if a used fixture with the lower temperature lampholders which are not rated for that wattage by way of using 18ga. wiring. Same reason you cannot just install a 750w lamp into an older S-4 fixture.) Also out of inefficiency of the filament. More luminous output don’t mean all the light the lamp is producing is useful light that is reaching the stage in an efficient way. This lamp has a larger filament size which means less actual light gets out of the gate of the fixture. This light blocked by the gate or reflected off at times as not directed stray light instead turns into wasted light at times a donut or top hat is needed to refine and especially heat for the light that don’t make it out of the lens train.

In general you will probably note a less even field of light within the beam spread given such a lamp. The EHD, EHG, HX 800/801, FLK and HX601 (often called FLK/LL) etc. series lamps also have similar inefficient filaments as the primary difference between them and a GLC/GLC/GLD/GLE series lamp in answering that question by belford.

For 750w/115v high output the Philips #6981P (115v) and #6982P (230v) are a bit more powerful but still with the small filament area than the GLD lamps in general. Radium’s (Ushio) RHS 800w/230/G9.5 while a little larger in filament and less lamp hours than the #6982P lamp seems like an ok option also. You might even find that a #6981P in a 360Q might have the same or more output in foot candles out of the fixture as that FEL lamp. Same with the #6982P verses the FEP. The more efficient or compact the lamps’ filament, the more “point source of light” it is, the more light that gets out of the fixture with a flatter (more even) beam of light.

For 575/600w 230v and 240v, the GKV (Philips #6986P) high output, GKV/LL, and GLB (Philips #6991P) lamps seem fine and similar to our GLC/GLA for the most part. Smallest wattage lamp you can at 230v put into the fixture is a Ushio JCV240v-500wBM. cc-8 filament on it might be small enough in efficiency but as a general concept when going lower wattage efficiency is a trade off. There is no HX-400/HX-401 version available also with cc-8 filaments at 230v.



Look up “The Law of Inverse Squares” or “Law of Squares” as it relates to stage lighting fixtures and it will answer the question of throw distance verses candlepower. This is also a question of how much useful light gets out of the lighting fixture as projected, not just per lamp specification how much luminous output it has. Say a 1.2Kw Ushio JCV 120v-1200wCH produces an astounding 33,000 lumens, in a large Altman 1000Q follow spot, this might be fine (not listed for the lamp) but in a Leko even if by far more powerful than a FEL or better than that BWN lamp, it don’t mean all the light produced by the lamp gets out of the fixture or once it gets out is useful light in that beam as opposed to flair.



For 230/240v first is the question not of what the fixture will really see in voltage, more a question of long life verses high output. Many long life lamps are less a more rugged lamp as a concept in being longer life in exchange for color temperature and luminous output by design, and more just a lamp with filament designed for a higher voltage that will last much longer assuming the listed voltage of the lamp that lamp is operating at is downscaled. In other words a say incandescent lamp listed for 20,000 hours might be listed as 120v but in reality its filament might be designed for 150v say. It than will have less luminous output and color temperature but last a really long time.

In addition to this, a 240v listed lamp while having a longer life can at times be very useful assuming a short run to the outlet and without dimming say at times for an architectural setting where voltage drop will not be an issue, or say where voltage spikes say from turning on a few dozen cash regesters at the same time might cause problems with the power feeing the building with fluxuations. If not using a dimmer and long cable especially for a permanent install, often a 120v or 240v lamp will be better to use even if still wanting high output out of it.

There is differences at times between 120v/115v/130v lamps as with 220/230/240v lamps but as a general concept a long life lamp while it might be stamped at a specific voltage, its filament is often just a larger voltage rated lamp. Is say a 115v long life lamp the same as a 120v high output lamp? No often, the actual design voltage of the lamp would be different by design for the end rated specifications of the lamp. A 120v high output lamp will most likely look different than a long life 115v lamp.

Voltage and Light Output: The effect of voltage on the light output of a lamp is ±1% voltage over the rated amount stamped on the lamp, gives 3.1/2% more light or Lumens output but decreases the life by 13% and vise a versa.
Do not operate quartz Projection lamps at over 110% of their design voltage as rupture might occur. GE Projection, Ibid p.13
A 5% change in the voltage applied to the lamp results in
-Halving or doubling the lamp life
-a 15% change in luminous flux
-an 8% change in power
-a 3% change in current
-a 2% change in color temperature (0.4% change per1% voltage.)
Osram Technology and Application Tungsten halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics, p21

In other words:
Volts - A measurement of the electromotive force in an electrical circuit or device expressed in volts. Voltage can be thought of as being analogous to the pressure in a waterline. The effect of voltage on a lamp will cause a significant change in lamp performance. For any particular lamp, light output varies by a factor of 3.6 times and life varies inversely by a factor of 12 times any percentage variation in supply. For every 1% change in supply voltage light output will rise by 3.6% and lamp life will be reduced by 12%. This applies to both DC and AC current. Most standard line voltage lamps are offered at 130v. Since most line voltage power is applied at 120volts, the result is a slight under voltaging of the filament. The effect of this is substantially enhanced lifehours, protection from voltage spikes and energy cost savings. - GE Spectrum Catalog ???


I agree with derekleffew also on if not actively attempting to get the maximum output out of the fixture for use on stage, you should both go long life and for the least wattage you can on it.

I’ll add to what Len was saying about reflectors etc. wearing out faster. If a used lighting fixture, your lampholder is probably also shot. Look at the pins of the lamp that came out of the fixture If blackened, pitted, arched etc, the base is also probably shot and don’t attempt to install that bad lamp into a new lampholder or it will go bad really fast. Also look at the lampholder’s contacts if other than gold, replace it.

Just sold off some 5Kw Strand Bambinos today and noted a lot of arching and pitting on one. Been a few years since the last round of resurfacing and replacement even if each is thoroughly inspected before each show. The lampholder for the resale fixture was resurfaced sufficiently and coated with cleaner/lubricant, the lamp couldn't be saved. That's where I work and when I am involved with the supervision of what gets sold for a difference between what is in "stock" workable show condition verses "used" or "as is" condition. Wouldn't sell gear that ain't show level, safe and factory spec or very servicable still even if used. Large differences often between even "Show Stock" gear in what is considered fine by the company selling it and or using it and sending it off on shows verses what our factory specification type quality level would require. Bash once sold me some great and factory specification level 3.5Q Lekos and Fresnels - if not new in factory specification condition at least. Now that PRG owns Bash, and given the work needed to past bought or rented "used" PRG fixtures, or gear from other comanies as often similar or worse, often large question of what's "servicable" this for many at least. In, buying or renting, expect the worst = even cob webs inside the fixtures as seen at times, or "gee, they only seem to rent us those fixtures which need major factory service...." This as I'm told the two buckets of lamps. That bucket of "new" seeming lamps used for tours, and "Ok" bucket of lamps used for rentals and one-off's at best if not worse for resale. A few lamps supplied from NegEarth recently showed up for me to inspect that didn't last very long either in a question of if it's a rental fixture, how did this lamp pass quality control while being prepped? This as opposed to me for five minutes per lamp and each lamp tracked on the computer per fixture installed and lamp hours and all even rental fixtures color and output balanced as opposed to the rest of the fixtures on the show for maximum output and balance.... Just don't get it at times (my side line in quality of resale gear.)


This as opposed to at least half the lampholders for many Mole 5 & 10K Fresnels bought resale samped with a WB' logo and Mole Richardson logos that were cracked and bad. Often no matter who on studio lighting, it's bad for resale fixtures and in need of extensive expensive work. Running at best at 50% of all used 5K and 10K studio Fresnel's bought over the years with at least re-surfaceable lampholders that can be saved in already assuming a rust pot etc. Studio Fresnels are especially hard lights to buy when used. This even if using them for prop fixtures housing LED fixtures... still gotta have some servicable parts on the fixture in at least operating focus short of rust or broken.

Altman specifically is UL listed in using Osram, Buhl, or Bender & Wirth TP-22 (lower temperature) or TP-220 (higher temperature) lampholders. They will be GX-9.5 lampholders as a general concept and all are standardized parts so it does not matter which brand you get. There is normally two versions of the lampholder from each brand, go for the higher temperature/wattage version as a normal choice all brands have. #97-1580 is the Altman part number which is currently a Bender & Wirth #968, 1000w/250deg. c. Socket. The Osram TP-220 socket is what used to be offered as a Altman #58-0018. It has heat sinks on it much like you might find on a HPL lamp for a ETC S-4 fixture. While I have never had problems with them, others in the past have found that this brand of lampholder does not last as long. Also Ushio offers the C3A lampholder for use with these fixtures. To the best of my knowledge, Altman and UL listings for the fixture still do not recognize this lampholder for use in their fixture. There are many people that use it none the less and recommend it. You might also find lampholders available from Etlin-Daniels, or AAG Stucchi which could work but are not recognized for use with the fixture.

[Perfectboy]

There are many better lamps now. So why don't you try to change another one.