HPL twin

[Dreadpoet]

I was wandering what lamp out there you think most closely resembles the HPL 575w in intensity and color temp. Bi-post for other "non source 4" ERS's

[icewolf08]

There are a few lamps out there that have very similar characteristics. Most of the online lamp dealers list the lamp specs so you can compare things like output and color temp. The most common are the GLD/GLE in the 750W LL/HO categories and the GLC/GLA in the 575W world. In terms of specifications, these will get you the closest and be more efficient than the FEL style lamps. You may want to try the new SPH lamp, I have not yet, so I can't really tell you much about it (though I have two demos sitting on my desk).

However a lot is going to depend on your fixtures. chances are you won't want to mix fixture types if you are trying to create even blendable washes. The big soda glass optics of the older 360Qs and Strand Axial fixtures are a lot of glass that has a lot of impact on the light compared to the small elements in a source four.

[JD]

As all lamps use a tungsten filament, the spectrum will be the same for any given lamp based on it's rated color temp. (ex 3200) The lamp, however, is only part of what gives a fixture it's characteristic spectrum output. The most significant game changer is the reflector. A modern glass reflector is designed to allow heat to pass through as compared to be reflected forward. (Example- Source 4) In doing so, some other colors also pass and the spectrum of the light is altered when compared to a metal reflector fixture. In short, even a HPL lamp would have a different color if placed in a metal reflector fixture. (ignoring LCL issues etc.) So basically you would not have much luck getting another lamp to duplicate the Source 4 look and feel in a non-Source 4 fixture. (ignoring Source 4 rip-off fixtures.)

[derekleffew]

Just worked in a venue today with a mixture of Strand SLs and Colortran 5/50s. Hated both of them, but I would choose the Colortran over the Strand if offered the choice.

Also had a mixture of GLA and GLC lamps. My conclusion? GLA=bad, GLC=better, but still not nearly as good as a SourceFour with an HPL-575/L115.

Of course, the high school uses the stage lights as work lights so I would probably buy the GLAs anyway.

[ship]

I will have recommended the Osam HPR 575/115v until they discontinued it and still do so.

The internal reflector to the lamp bested the HPL even with Altman fixtures using them in testing. A shame but such a better lamp never took off. A GLC for high output or GLA for long life is the easy answer for now. Better? not perhaps but until the filament of the ETC lamp looses its pattent, not much other lamp designers can do to copy or improve on in both cases.

This as a for instance = why don't that HPL lamp have an internal reflector so as to increase the efficiency by 15 to 20%"? Pattent that prevents other competition in not paying the licence for and or prevnts the filament in being used on other lines such as the GLA or HPR line verses allowing for lamp improvement in general. This say a HPR/HPL lamp or a GLA/HPR/HPL lamp improvement as opposed to what ever I have wated years for GE to bring to market they were said to be working on.

GLA is the best for normal non-heat sink at this pint the market can do and it's not bad. Had Osram done the HPR lamp based on this lamp instead of the HX-600 filament, the HPR lamp will have been a major threat to the ETC brand of HPL lamp. Wee mistake in now the HPR falling to the discontinued even if a really good lamp.

Next in mathing up, waiting for the ETC pattent to end its run than more improvement I think on both lamp types. Next year... two years from now? I believe its already such lamp in design and waiting to be able to come out.

[church]

I asked Osram why they had not put the reflector into other lamps and was told it was a patent issue.

[ship]

[QUOTE=icewolf08;152348] You may want to try the new SPH lamp, I have not yet, so I can't really tell you much about it (though I have two demos sitting on my desk).QUOTE]

You have SPH samples on your desk!!!... Pissed with my Ushio rep. now in me being shorted, though not much a market for using them and hard to get samples much less pens and shirt swag out of them. Or do I also have a SPH or two in my lamp cabinet - I forget in also not having time to try a lamp advertised as not really designed for use in Lekos thus "some Lekos" in the advertisement. Ushio Fluorescent Ultra 8 lamps are the best on the market on the other hand (just bought a pallet of them), Ushio's Reflecto owned brand of lamps are also often the best on the market, the rest of their HPL thru normal ANSI lamps perhaps are at this point good but equal if not better dependant on the lamp = mostly equal. Decent packaging on the other hand.

Too bad Osram gave up on the HPR 575/115v line of lamps. While it was designed around the HX-600/FLK lamp, it's internal reflector did boost output and flat field, just an unfortunate choice to design it around a FLK filament instead of a later GLC filament. A new internal reflector lamp by them based around the GLC lamp filament is not in development even if the technology is there and would make for the best non-HPL lamp on the market. This until the pattent on the HPL lamp filament goes away as most lamp companies I think are waiting for at this point before more product development in non-heat sink G9.5 base lamps take place. On the other hand they did totally revise their GLC/GLA line of lamp filaments so as I'm told to comply to the Phillips higher output line of them. Should be similar now - have not heard from GE or Phillips rep's recently in part because one I think is pissed with me and the other I have no contact with ten years plus since I started in being the lamp buyer.

From what I gather between Ushio and Osram, their primary thoughts are for the moment in waiting out the ETC pattent on the HPL lamp for future non-HPL filaments - GE was told to be developing some improved filament design for them but its long past introduction date, and at least Osram is more looking towards LED in lamp design at the moment - this given Ushio for the most part has even given up on metal hallide stage and studio design they were making progress on but for the most part other than for G-12 commercial base size, has given up on. This as opposed to Osram that just came out with a line of economy moving light lamps so as to compete with the Eiko and Devine lamps out there, but also has removed part of their Ultra' life line of moving light lamps. Seems customers more often than not would rather buy a cheaper lamp than one that lasts longer as a concept I cannot understand in them most often complaining about constantly having to pull out a ladder so as to change lamps.

Saw the Robe Robin 300 last week, Not overall impressive and only about competes with 250w metal hallide and LED Leko's at this point but it is coming. Nook's only main and really good question on it was about color temperature in while it adjusted downward it didn't have enough color wheel capacity to color correct upward in matching up with normal moving light color temperatures. Plasma moving lights are out there on the other hand now and it won't be too long until its Plasma Lekos given this.
.

[ship]

Originally Posted by church

I asked Osram why they had not put the reflector into other lamps and was told it was a patent issue.

Easily a pattent issue with the HPL lamp but other than that I don't think your info was correct as a general concept for all lamps. Long before the HPR lamp came out there was the FEL/R lamp from the same company - back in the 90's it was out. Instead from them I was told it was more about the difficulty of inserting the reflector into some lamp types. This was out of difficulty in somehow say a GLC lamp different than that of a FLK lamp in design and or in slipping that filament into the lamp globe. Don't know, years ago that was what was explained to me though possibly possible for today or the future.

On the other hand I have like a year or two ago dealt with other types of lamps with internal reflectors. Had these big blow up tennis ball baloons at one point with 1Kw metal hallide lamps inside. They had internal reflectors in the lamps so as to reflect heat away from the base. Unfortunately such internal reflectors inside the lamps were not really designed for cross country transport and the internal reflectors often angled themselves at like a 45 degree angle. In one instance that angle was sufficient so as to hit with directed light on the thermal circuit breaker mounted on the side of the fixture. 1:1000 chance such a thing would happen. Happened to my Upgraded fixtures totally out of chance in having to come out with a V.2 of them right away.

V.0 of these fixtures the baloon company was doing for these tennis balls - this with lampholder of the fairly large lamp and base being attached to the grill of the stock type electronics cooling fan directly in-line behind it. No support for the lamp base other than that grill, and it also lacked sufficient cooling for the lamp in the opposing side, this with ability to quicky change lamps short of taking the thing apart a half hour in doing so at least. Really bad design given base of heavy lamp with transport in being attached to the grill of a fan snapped the welds to that fan and broke it in the lamp now hinging down by way of cable thru the side of it's plastic safety shield. This was the initial problem with other concepts in design I had to solve with V.1 and V.2.

My upgrade for them was by way of frame to support the socket and quick release grill to get at the lamp amongst other things, and it was really good until one lamp failed due to factory heat sink reflector now off center allowed the light to be reflected on the balloon company factory installed thermal sensor (later moved.)

Concept of this above is that yes, assuming you can get a reflector disc into a lamp, for the most part its still supported by that lamp's lead in wires - top and bottom for the filament. Reflectors often conduct electricity if reflective so it would be a bad thing if they tended to short between hot and neutral before the filament. Next bad thing especially if for something that's in a Leko as opposed to some industrial type of lamp that's not really designed for transport, that reflector if to optimize performance, needs to not move and stay focused. That's really hard to do - see fast fit lamps with their glass tube insulated upper lead in wires amongst other single ended moving light lamps both for how easily a glass tube about a lead in wire glass tube breaks or even the lead in wire itself top or lower tends to move ever so slightly with a slight bounce in allowing the lead in wire to move or bend a bit in the lamp to no longer centered or even touching with innner capsule the inner globe with outer globe in failure a constant problem especially with say MSR 575HR moving light lamps when used on moving lights instead of on the follow spots such lamps were better designed for. This much less the complexity of even if one were to support an internal reflector with glass - its fighting against the pinch of the lamp.

Overall in thinking about internal reflectors - welded in or what ever by way of glass spacers, really hard and expensive to do. Given the market ain't supporting say Ultra Life or MSD type lamps, how could one expect it to pay more for improved HPR lamps?

[ship]

If of help on the above internal reflectors from a good theater person source at Osram.
(My notes in {} brackets)

Mark was the head of Photo Optics at Osram at the time the HPR lamp came out and was the person that brought the BTH lamp to market for them/Controlbooth members in request. As with Controlbooth's request for the BTH lamp, you got a lamp idea... present it and he as also a theater person just might bring it to market - standup guy in the industry that is still theater. Also, believe me he is not fogetting about the internal reflector idea, just not cost effective yet over filament improvement at the moment and I won't help him forget it. This in also noting the Ultra line moving light lamp of extra long life lamps now mostly now discontinuing this verses the economy lamps just introduced. - The best lamp one might wish for at this point in time is not a lamp that can be economically produced and survive the market. Technology is there but what is it like $16.00 for a GLC lamp (don't know)... this verses like $25 for an internal reflector version of it wouldn't work out so well.

Me, I'm pushing for a #4515 pinspot/mirror ball lamp that's long life but high output if even xenon or a bit less in output over just long life available, or longer life audience blinder DWE lamps that have the same output but longer life even if either has a higher cost. Where I work or who I retail to could swallow the cost of such lamps if longer life to some extent. Most customers for a better GLC lamp on the other hand would not provide sufficient market share for such lamps. Heck, can't even get many of them off FLK or HX-600 lamps, this much less the GLC by way of education.

{Remember that bracketed parts are my own and in general this is industry talk not official stuff. More an indication of industry talk jermain to this topic I am responsible for posting.}

Brian,
That's mostly dead-on. The most expensive part of the HPR lamp was the little quartz tubing which we had to put around one of the lead wires as an insulator so the reflector didn't conduct between the two leads as you point out correctly. You are also right on about the fact that with multi-segmented coils (C-13D-- GLC style) the difficulty in building the lamp (all those multiple pick points would somehow need to go through the reflector) would slow down the process and make them so inefficient to make that the plant productivity would go down and the cost would drastically go up. And no one is going to pay $4-5 more for a GLC with a slight performance improvement. {Thats like at least $10.00 per lamp retail above that of the stock GLC lamp.}


Actually there is a slight patent issue. xxx of Unipar put a patent out on the reflector for use in stage and studio lamps, and it wasn't challenged as no one in the company thought it would pass. {This as similar to the HPL lamp filament pattent which blocks filament design at this point on that lamp or for other lamps.} And then it did to everyone's surprise. {The years ago discontinued FLK/R and most recent HPR lamps invented before the Unipar lamp's pattent are now by law not able to be sold short of payment to UniPar for its pattent as added cost as similar to the cost on a HPL lamp.} So he does have a patent issued on it, but if it was challenged in court I'm sure it would be overturned due to the variety of other uses and previous versions that you pointed out also existed prior in other lamps. {More on the legal case about current lamps and lamps made for other more normal industries such as the above internal reflectors on metal hallide lamps that perhaps won't be a problem but a question for patent attorneys in possibiltiy or real problem for the lamp industry in taking a step back. Its not expected that internal reflectors on stage and studio lamps will come back in the near future, this given the above pattent will be back soon and a touchy subject I had to delete part of and hopefully carefully phrase sufficiently. My hope would be that now that this company has its pattent that will above cost stifle lamp development, nobody makes their pattented lamp as fair enough while the HPL lamp's filment is waited out and most companies wait out an improvement on it and that filament reaching the rest of the industry. Fair enough, you pattent the relector but nobody makes it until your pattent expires... good luck for finding your lamps and selling your wears.}


Although, I now have a HP 375 (ANSI: GLG) lamp using the GLC coil design. Selecon (kind of odd sending samples to your competitor to test them) is play testing them in New Zealand. Gives every G9.5 base fixture manufacturer (anyone not named ETC) a 375W lamp to compete with the 375W HPL. I'm now working on the Long life version.
Best,

{Later discussions on me not having problems with the HX-400 and HX-401 lamps even with a gobo but on say Altman 3.5Q5 fixtures given Selecon wants such a lamp with their more accurate fixtures with a lower wattage I can see that.} HX-400/401 has the wrong filament type. The CC8 (FLK) design doesn't optimize efficiently in the L&E and Selecon reflectors and so they didn't like that lamp --according to xxxx and xxx (formerly of L&E). The C13D filament is much better, and also is a true 375W (apples to apples) alternate to the 375W HPL.

Mark A. DeLorenzo
Product Manager - Entertainment
NAFTA Region
OSRAM Sylvania Inc.

{Keep trying to get him to join and contribute to this forum, but just as it's hard for me to be PC in noting where I work without where I work PC police monitoring my posts, given where he works and his own position I expect it would be harder for him to mask or post even if very fair to all brands.}