Lighting Light Sources & Bulbs

[silverbullet761]

Hey All, I am new to this forum but I would like to get some input.

I am in a my high school drama group. This year we are trying to blow everyone away with a great show (long story and I won't bore you with it) but my high school is small, and we really don't have a budget. So, I'm building our lighting system, which will consist of:
(2) moving mirror scanners (color wheel, focus, zoom, RGB individual
mixing)
(10) Beam (not spot) PAR 38's for strong white beam aimed downward,
very quick rise and fall times (for strobing)
(3) Static digital projectors- each for screen build into set
(1) Digital Projector with moving mirror (X & Y axis) to allow for direction
control and aiming. (cheaper than buying many globos and pro-
scanner
to put them in). Mirror similar to moving-mirror scanner over lens.
(?) Various PAR 38's for standard stage lighting.
(5) Static color-mixing (color wheel, not gel) PAR 38's (1 for each
section)

I can make the lighting, it's not a problem. I have already designed the scanners and we have the projectors. The PAR-38's are the ghetto coffee can ones (hey, i do what i can with the budget i have). The one problem I have is that I need LIGHT SOURCES. We don't have the budget to buy Xenon bulbs that would normally be used in the scanners and the 10 beam PAR's that need to strobe. So, I need to know, what kind of bulbs could come close to the brightness but are cheaper? I have got my hands on 2 photoflood bulbs that will give me the brightness I need for the scanners, however they have a life of only 4 hours each. So, after rehearsals, they'll be burned. Bare in mind that the life of the blubs does not have to exceed more than 20 hours. The scanners are only used in the finale (for a total of about 10 minutes). The strobing PAR 38's are used in the finale but they might also be used more.

TO SUM UP: What bulbs can I use that have a fast rise and fall time and are very bright, but are not expensive.

*To give you an idea of what I mean by Beam PAR 38's, think of the sequence of "Season's of Love" from RENT, where the players are standing across the stage and each has a strong white beam from above on them. That's what we are doing basically doing, except ours have to strobe in the finale (on for about 3 seconds though). The rest of the time, they are solid on.

[Jezza]

I don't have a great sollution for you for the sources for your scanners, however i'm a little confused when you say spot v. beam. In the "Season's of Love" opening scene in RENT, PAR 64 w/ either NSP or VNSP bulbs were used (narrow spot, very narrow spot) with haze to create the "beam" effect which I think you are trying to emulate. That would entail renting a hazer. Foggers work if you shoot them through a fan to get the job done cheaply, but they will never have the hang time nor the same look and effect as haze. As for your sources themselves, any toungsten source unless very small will take some time to dim down and up or as you say has a moderate to slow rise and fall rate. The more complex luminaries utilize mechanical dowsers on servos that can create the strobbing effect that you are looking because they can be acctuated so quickly. In my experience, strobbing a toungsten fixture never yeilds the desired effect. They'll flash and look exciting, but a true strobe you will never achieve. Sorry I can' be more help.

[silverbullet761]

i've heard i need to use a hazer, but i really don't want to do that. In the past when we used fog machines is caused an asthma nightmare in rehearsal and set off the fire alarms. I'll look into a hazer though, check out pricing or see if i can build one. as i understand it, it's just a different pumping system and different glycerin mixture for the fluid as opposed to a fog machine. any idea if hazers would be as likely to set off the smoke detectors and fire alarms (i don't want the fire department to show up again...)

I have considered using the servo idea you mentioned. But like I said, i have barely any budget, so i'm trying to cut back on servos. I'm looking at doing the same principle, but only using solenoids instead. It won't be controllable as to how much light, but it would be able to be strobed.

The main problem I'm trying to solve is high lumen output (rise and fall time is not as important as there are ways around that) for a low price. If you or anyone knows where I could get xenon tubes at wholesale or cheap, I'd take it very seriously. small halogen would work, but then I'd have to do some color correction because those tend to look yellow.

[Pie4Weebl]

if I get what you are saying, you plan on building the scanners yourself? YOu might want to try and rent some cheapo american dj scanners from a local dj, somehow I think you could get them on the cheap or free if a parent or student has a dj business. If I have been able in the past to coax other students to give me enough money to get a pair of mac550s and a hog for a show anyone should be able to do it.

[ship]

Seems like your drama group has a lot of gadgets and home owner specials but noting really very useful for proper lighting, spot, fill and wash.

To figure out how specifically to improve what you have, we need to know specifically what you have.

2) Scanner (What Brand and Model?)
10) PAR 38 Can (What Wattage?) This is “flood” (not spot) correct?
3) Digital Projector (What Brand and Model?)
1) Moving Mirror Digital Projector (What Brand and Model?)
x) PAR 38 Coffee Can
5) ?Scroller? Or Color Wheel? (No big deal either way as far as lighting goes.)

PAR 38 lamps have fairly large filaments - comparatively lots of lag time even if under dimmer warming to bounce them up and down. This is as opposed to a “photo flash” lamp that has a very small filament designed to go to full fast (useful for lightning effects.)

What do you mean by “photoflash lamps” in a scanner? A typical Photoflash lamp I can think of (3 hours) would be about a big Edison/Medium Screw based big old 5" long A-21 lamp that’s 250w. Not really feasible as a light source for a typical scanner. Or was this a lamp used in some PAR 38 cans to strobe? In that case, given it’s a 250w source of light, you can get more intense in giving up speed for longer lamp life - all wattage dependant upon intensity. There is other options but first refine the intent is in a PAR 38 and not in a scanner.

I’m noting that it’s ok for a 20hr lamp by way of budget as long as it’s intense, yet you don’t have a budget for lighting fixtures. Wouldn’t a 1,000 much less 20,000 hr lamp be a bit better or at least more cost effective?

What do you mean by xenon bulbs - are these the ones intended for the scanner lamps, something like the QT-8500 for a Trackspot which is a xenon / halogen filament lamp? Not sure what you mean by “xenon tubes”, can you be more specific about what specific lamp you are looking for? I won’t recommend sources to shop at persay but might recommend what to shop for.

So with the above, what type of lamp and fixture to be used in, is it that you are looking to have a fast rise and fall time?

On making lighting/haze machines... there is some school systems that allow or turn a blind eye towards students/teachers in ability or lack of any real help to make what you will. But remember that if you burn down the school, that blind eye will become an absence of knowledge that you were doing this and thus a denial of guilt and fault much liability completely in your court. It is highly not recommended that you are making your own lighting fixtures - no matter how easy it might seem. The problem is always in that little bit you didn’t know. Heck, I have been building fixtures from scratch eight years now professionally much less wiring fixtures about fifteen years, and there is still stuff I’m still learning or techniques I’m figuring out. What seems simple enough often can be dangerous with what is not known and compensated for.
Remember, this stuff isn't just stuff you are tinkering about with in a home workshop, it's stuff that hundreds of people potentially depend upon being safe while attending your performance - this dependance upon safety with their lives.

[SHARYNF]

One thing to consider and it really has been mentioned before but might have been missed. That cool cone of light that you see shining down has a lot to do with haze, it is not the intensity but the haze that makes the beam visable.

Renting for some reason seems to be avoided with school productions, but is used all the time in pro systems, other wise you send a lot of money for stuff that rarely works correctly, gets thrown out. A local rental company if the equip is not being used at the time might be willing to work a really good deal for you

Sharyn

[ship]

Perhaps some easy and safe sources. There are surplus gear collection type places that sell stuff cheap such as American Science and Surplus http://www.sciplus.com . Never know what you might find by way of lighting fixtures and lamps of all sorts.

Otherwise there is junk yards that if not in general, specialize in stuff that used to be say in stores. Way back when from "Kohlar's Trading Post" - if still in business (Lombard Illinois), I once bought some track lighting fixtures in PAR 46 and PAR 56 size that worked great. Came out of some department store after a renovation where they went to more modern fixtures. Remove the track lighting elements and wire them for a cord. Given a standard track light fixture is often a short throw fixture, easy enough to add by way of brackets and J.B. Weld a coffee can and even rock and roll style gel frame clips to the fixture - easy enough to bend and attach for a normal size snout to the lamp and gel standard gel frames.

Halo was the brand of PAR 46, definately no slouch as far as quality - even has a rotation to the lamp mechanism. Fixtures came with lamps for as I remember it like $10.00 each. Lamp bases and fixtures in general were in good shape.

Such a place often also stocked lamps and even had a Altman Q1000 in stock at one point that they just sort of acquired. Granted it had some funkeyness with it's wiring (something about a L5-20 plug inside the fixture itself made me suspicious about the wiring in general, plus one of the lenses was cracked.) Still, it was going for like $100.00 years ago. Never knew what I would find there and the owners knew that when ever they got lights in stock, they should give me a call. At this junk yard at least, constantly all sorts of motors and other things in stock. A treasure mine for props and lots of other things.

Thus two types of used gear retailers to shop with that could be safe. The former being new gear that's surplus, the second that's used gear and often will need work but often there can be good savings much less donations.

Never know what one will find in either type of place.

[gafftaper]

If I read your message right you are planning to build all this stuff yourself. While I admire your creativity and intellectual ability I strongly suggest you seek out cheap rental options instead. Home made theater lighting gear is never a great idea and the professionals only do it when it's an absolute necessity. The guy who posted a couple of messages up named "Ship" is one of the most experienced and respected members of Control Booth. Read some of his other posts you see why. Did you get that part of the message about how he's been building things for years and there are still things he doesn't know everything about doing it correctly? Listen to the man, around here no one beats his knowledge of lamps and electricity.

Also, in the end building it yourself probably won't save you much money over renting. In my city you can rent a top of the line Martin Technobeam scanner for around $200 a week. I'm sure you can get yourself something on the lower end like an American DJ scanner for a lot less than that, hit up the Music/Band/DJ places. Save the time, Save the money, and most of all stress safety. Who knows you might even find a DJ who will loan the gear for free.

I've taught High School and College theater tech and would never consider building this gear myself or allowing a student to do it. The risks are just too high.

[silverbullet761]

I've taken your advice and called the few rental places there are around here (I live a medium-sized town in Alabama). However, most of these places have never even heard of scanners, let alone carry them. The closest place that carries scanners is about 2 hours away, and they rent them per hour, so that would not be good.

In response to the question on Xenon bulbs, they are the kind of bulbs used for the most part in luminaries by companies like "High End Systems" and are very often used in high-lumen digital projectors. That's why the lamps in projectors are expensive to replace. As far as what brand or size, that doesn't matter. If i can get my hands on the bulbs, I will build around them, and custom constuct the power system. However, I'm pretty certain at this point, I'm going with halogen for the scanners.

Like I have said before, we have barely any budget to rent anything. The spotlight and the few things we have that come from a rental company is only because a girl in the program's father owns the rental company, so we get a fantastic deal. Does anyone know if halogen (outdoor) floods would work as NSP lights (don't know the PAR of them- maybe 48-60)? Those we have access to.

The suggestion you are giving are great, and if we had the money, we'd do it. Basically, what we're trying to do is do some good effects with ghetto equiptment. I have my own fog machine, so could I do something to achieve the effect of Haze with it? It does not have to hang. the haze only needs to be there for a 2-3 minute sequence.

thanks again,
stephen

[Pie4Weebl]

I know TLS (http://tlsinc.com/) is in northern AL. All the same making scanners is not a safe bet. I'm sure most rental companies refer to them as moving mirror fixtures if they don't know what you mean by scanners. If you build the system byyourself I think you will also be disappointed by the output from the fixtures.