An Illuminating Experience... (a warning)

[icewolf08]

So, this morning I was doing some research into buying new lamps for my Elation PowerSpot 700s. The lamp they take is the Phillips MSR700 SA/DE (#136184). (BTW: If anyone makes an equivalent lamp I would love to know.)

In any event, the real story starts with a phone call to [a particular company that was recommended whose name I omit], located in Long Island (I believe). I have never used them before, but they have sent me a lot of information and they say on their website that they will beat any price, so I figured I would give them a try in the interest of saving money.

So, I called them up, and the first representative I talked to was nice and helpful, but couldn't find any information on the lamp in question. The only lamps she could find were the MSR700 SA and MSR700/2. These are both bi-pin base lamps, where mine is a dual end lamp. So, I got passed off to another rep, and I had to give all the information again, what lamp, what fixture, etc. Now, this rep insisted that I was looking for the wrong lamp for my fixtures. She insisted to the point of being condescending.

Now, frankly, I am the one with the old lamp in my hand and the fixture in my office, one would think I would know what I was talking about. I even called Elation to ask what the correct lamp is. While I was on the phone with Elation they told me that their web page on the fixture lists the wrong lamp, so, I could see where this rep from [said company name omitted] could be getting the wrong info, but that doesn't excuse the way I was treated.

So, I don't know if any of you have ever used them, but from my experience, I wouldn't be too inclined to call them again. Just thought I would let you know, just in case.

[Dillon]

I've used [that company] in the past for lamps and expendables. They are great if you know exactly what you want... look up your own info and double-check it before calling. They've led me in circles trying to track down a lamp for my followspots (Strong Int'l Radiance). I ended up having to call Strong directly to get the Ushio part numbers I needed. [They] ended up giving me a more than fair price on the replacement lamp. Sign up for their e-sales flyer... they've got some great deals in there from time to time. I stocked up on generic lamps for my S4's and fresnels when they were on sale and saved a bundle.

[edited by ship - see below]

[ship]

While I am chuckling as I read this post, as I and many in the industry and have talked to both people in the past many times, much less absolutely agree with your observations (good and bad) and could give more of our own. Point is that it’s not generally acceptable to post publically what you posted how you posted it on-line, and especially on this forum.

Either if you don’t recommend them as a short and sweet in reply to a post such as where to shop from, but not going into detail on why - contact you off line if interested, or going into detail but not publically post their company name. Perhaps hinting at it at most, and again contact you off line.

I would highly recommend that both of you remove the name of the company from your post or I will have to - sorry, that’s the way the industry works, and it is a very small industry.


The MSR 700SA/DE #1301-8 from Phillips is another version of the Osram HTI 700w/D4/75 #54242 or HTI 700w/D4/60 both of which were on the market a year or two before the Philips lamp came out. Main differences are in color temperature, CRI and Luminous output. The Osram HTI 700w/D4/60 is about 6,000̊K, the the HTI 700w/D4/60 burns at 7,500̊K. Both have a CRI of >85 and Luminous output of 59,000 Lumens. The Phillips MSR 700SA/DE dependant upon what pamphlet on the lamp you read has changed from 6K to 6.5K to now 7.5K over the last few years from 7/04 to 2/07 the I believe current spec. At the moment it's published lamp specifications are at 7.5K in color temprature and a CRI of 75. Not shure what the current specified luminous output is, it's changed as much as the color temperature but I believe if it's a 7.5K color temperature it is 56,000 Lumens that was also published with it.

Same exact lamps as get used in a Martin Mac 700 fixture and Martin is currently also pushing the Phillips Gold lamp over the Osram Shark lamp.

(Not even in their on-line catalog yet but you should find a on-line advertisement of it on the Phillips Broadway section.)

[icewolf08]

no problem ship, will edit. It is interesting though, as in my price shopping today there were other dealers who had similar experiences with said company.

[Mirrai]

I would like to know why a person can't post a companys name when the company acted that way. I understand that it is a small industry but that doesn't mean we should lower our standards to costumer service. To be honest I would expect better custumer service from companies because there are, relatively, so few custumers out there for their products.
Any way that is just a newbie in the fields thoughts.

[ship]

Slander is not accepted here or on many forums. You can also see by the second post that one’s milage might vary dependant upon how each person individually clicks with the sales person. Removing the name of the company from the post and replacing it perhaps with something like “.... Bulbs” or removing it all together will make the statements just as important for intent in others not to put up with crap when spending money, just limit it in shopping anywhere in their own experiences and not to a specific company. That could be helpful in general as there is others just or perhaps different in not good service out there. I would also recommend not mentioning that they can contact you off line for who it was with your bad experience if they don’t already know. Tech people like Wolf, I and others simply by the description already knew who you were talking about without even mentioning who it was. Dillon no doubt also already knew - this sales person is a legend in the industry. There has been many off line discussions with tech people in the past about them - off line. Those that don’t know the specific supplier will instead get an overall idea that they are the customer... This no matter where they shop.

Get the idea? First, you don’t slander specifically any company in public on a website. All find and dandy to say stuff like I hate ETC or what ever - they are major companies. It is however inappropriate to slander even if true to which it instantly got a inverse opinion stated to their defence a distributer, local company etc in depth. You can give an opinion - a short one when replying but to start a post specifically to do this, is not civil. The warning intended to others in a post is often not a warning that does other than start flame wars. You either tell your experience in general that you had without bringing down their house, or you in the future don’t recommend them when asked. You don’t do the same thing in the same very public post.

Kind of how it is, hope it helps. Can’t do it on stagecraft or lighting network either.

Perhaps Icewolf or others can better describe why you cannot do this, believe he understands and agrees in general with the concept once reminded of it. Much less it's Dave's website and could get him into trouble.

[gafftaper]

Yeah, I was wondering if this post would get zonked.

You can say a lot when you are expressing an opinion about a company or product. "I had a bad experience shopping with this company and would not recommend them because in my opinion..." or "I don't like this product because in my opinion..." But when you go into detail about interaction with employees it goes beyond just a simple opinion and starts to get personal. That quickly approaches the line between expressing an opinion and slander. Slander is something you can get sued for. And who would get sued? Dave for hosting the site. By allowing the post to stay it becomes a officially condoned by Dave. The question then becomes, is Dave willing to get sued by the company because of Alex's slanderous personal attacks (that's what the other guy's lawyers would call it)? Answer no of course not. We all know and respect Alex's opinions. We accept that things happened just as he described because we know him. What if a stranger with only one post came in and said worse things about another company? Where do you draw the line? Who gets to say nasty things and who doesn't? How nasty can you get without being censored?

It's far easier to avoid all that and just say if you want to bash a company don't post the name publicly give it out in P.M. Want to have complete freedom of speech start your own website... then you can get sued for slander instead of Dave.

By the way Alex, it sounds like I'm bashing you for this, I'm really not trying to. I Love you man! I appreciate the post, your frustration, and the warning. Sounds like it's best to shop somewhere else.

[Pie4Weebl]

alright, this has been a pet peave with this site for a long time. Where exactly has this long held belief that you can get sued for what you post. I want examples of where this has happened in the past. Also posting a negative experience isn't slander. Saying something like "I bought a computer from dell and their customer service failed me x, y and z ways" is not slander. On the other hand claiming "Dell came to my house and raped my dog then stole my tv" would be slander. On the same token a company isn't going to sue a website for slander, that would bring more bad PR than any comment. Worst case scenario is dave gets a threating form letter. Consider this a far fetched idea, but I believe companies to be responsible for how every transaction takes place good or bad. Let the consumer decide.

The same goes for posting info about rigging or pyro, I refuse to believe that the argument of "I heard this online" would stand up in court. The idea of keeping knowledge away for the sake of safety is ridiculous. The way I see it is, I don't plan on doing pyro anytime soon, but from reading a thread about it if I saw someone doing something stupid I could stop a bad situation from happening.

But please, prove me wrong, show me where an online forum been successfully sued for something other than copyright violations or kiddy porn and been successful.

[icewolf08]

Well, I have since had quite the in-depth PM conversation with Ship, and as you can see, i have edited the original post. Since then, I have been tossing around the idea of deleting it myself, though I suppose now it poses no harm to anyone who didn't read it before. hey, it could have been worse, i could have used people's names, but I didn't know what they were... And frankly there are other companies that are more worth my time to complain about... (don't ask, cause I won't tell, though if you worked at my theatre for a while you would inevitably find out)

I certainly realize that we work in a small and very competitive industry. I should, I work in regional theatre, it seems we are always broke... It is important to me, and to all of us that our suppliers survive. I wish that there were more items that were fair traded (ever notice that you can buy a Mac for the same price no matter what store you go to?). I mean why is it that the local dealer gets screwed because he doesn't sell as many units as the big company?

I suppose I have very idealistic dreams, and I am sure that there are many others out there who feel the same.

[Logos]

There is one simple issue above and that is that the ultimate defence to a slander suit is that what you are saying is the truth. You are then left with deciding whether what you said is good business practice. As we have two people with differing experiences then it probably isn't good business practice to slag off the company. Maybe the sales person you were talking too was having a bad day. who knows. If the issue is important enough try to discuss it with the company. (Edit: This is intended to be generic advice not specific to your case Alex.)

I agree with the bans on pyro and rigging advice. How would one of us feel if someone took advice we offered and mucked it up hurting them selves. Strictly apart from liability which is I agree a can of worms we would feel like sh**.
For an example of cases of liability sueing for websites. Financial advisors were successfully sued in the late eighties and early nineties in the UK for generic advice they offered on websites that later went bottom up and people lost money. Where a direct question is asked and answered the door to litigation is open.