New Install

[thelightguy87]

So one of my community theaters is moving to a new building, and going to buy some new equipment. This means I'm the one that gets to shop.
My first question, knowing I have a very small budget, small enough they didn't give me a range, they just said keep it affordable, and I don't know what that means. But I'm looking for a small dimmer. Either Dimmer packs or Dimmer Rack. I think 12ch would do. Now considering we are going from 1000W hardware dimmers on a 2x4 framed board, this is a big improvement. Our need is to be able to put 3 to 4 500W fresnels on each channel, if possible. but with a 2.4kw dimmer we should be alright. I'm not familiar with dimmer racks that are less than 24ch and are going to be in the 1000$ to 2000$ range max.
My first thought is to look at leprecon, as they have 6ch packs but i think they are only 1200W What kind of power do we need in order to power a small rack of say 12 2.4kw dimmers and we are looking to fill most of them up? We are having an electrician come out and run multiple circuits around the room, and through the ceiling. Basically this is a recreation room that is being turned into a small theater. Which is a joke cuz they rent it out to sports and dance classes and other groups and having lights on the 10ft ceiling is not the best idea. But thats beyond my say on the project.
Next question is control. I'd like at least 24 channels and be able to run cues. Any ideas of a small console that is again under 2000$?
We are currently brainstorming for this project, so if i can get any ideas and bring them to park district board for budget approval that'd be great. I don't really know where to start for low end, but decent consoles. I use computer software to run lights for my concerts, or when available an old ETC Insight from my high school...my favorite console ever...but anyways, I'm just looking for stuff to put my eyes on. Somewhere to start.
Thanks
Mike

[gafftapegreenia]

This board is pretty much the standard for two scene boards.

Also, you should consider others things as well. Do you need more instruments? More efficient lamps? Cable? Gel? Gobos?

[thelightguy87]

We have fixtures at the moment, possibly getting LED par64s for some toplight, and we are going to need cable, but we are going to get as much through the electrician as possible, that is, get tails run to most possible positions. I actually used to own that board, it got damaged in storage and now doesn't work and i moved to using software, but thats also only 12 ch. I'm looking for 24 possible channels of control, cuz if i get 4 LEDpar 64s patch them together thats 4 channels, then a 12 circuit dimmer, thats 16 channels, then I plan on using my personal 4ch dimmer packs for practicals and such where the main rack isn't accessable, i have 4 so thats another possible 16 dimmers. there only 600W so not the most useful for main lighting system. so im looking at 32 to 40 possible control channels needed, but minimized when patched. So I figure 24 should be enough. But other than that I do like the LP 600 since it can run cues too. I've become very happy with most leprecon consoles.

Anyone ever use a lightronics dimmer rack before? I'm looking at an 8 2400w circuit dimmer rack for about 1400. I don't have anything else yet to decide if thats reasonable, but i'd much rather go with a strand, leprecon or etc dimmer rack

[gafftaper]

There have been several discussions that get rather hot, rather quick about which brand is the best in the budget price range. Do some searching... brands like Leprachaun, NSI, EDI, Dove, Lightronics... all have their fans and haters around here. I suggest you go to your local dealer and see who they carry and what their package would be. If you don't have a relationship with a local dealer send a private message to C.B.'s own BILLESC or contact one of the big national dealers like Barbizon and BMI. Each dealer will have their own house version of essentially the same product... get some quotes then compare features.

Also don't forget that both ETC and Strand do make fairly low end basic consoles. They might cost more than the other low end consoles but will probably be better choices in the long run.

Finally, don't forget to look at computer based control systems.

[thelightguy87]

Alright, I'll give Grand Stage a call after new years and see what they can do for me. I am familiar with ETCs Smartfade, and to be honest, i don't like it. I haven't looked into a strand console, but I'm currently using Enttec Lightfactory with a 36ch out license. So in doubt i'll use that, but thats not permeneant to the space, and they would much rather prefer a console. Anyone know of a site that can give me prices for items? I've been looking at ETC, Strand, Leprecon and Lightronics websites for a while reading about the dimmer racks but none of them say anything about price. And the main resellers around, like Grand Stage, don't have prices online either. But I think based on the equipment I've worked with, I'm going to try to get either an ETC portable rack or a Strand CD80 Portable rack. Perticularly in the 12-24 circuit range.

[Charc]

*Leprecon. Not to be picky Gaff.

The LP-612 and more importantly LP-624 would be solid options. If you can get a memory console for low-cost, used, that'd be a better option, so hunt around. Lastly, running lights from a computer is always a viable option.

[ship]

I love the ETC Vision above the two scene preset with independent modes, but I’m a bit old school it would seem. This given by now most Vision light boards have corrupt memories by now and won’t work out well. Still if you could get some 1990's computer light board that still works as designed, it would have almost unlimited amounts of control channels and programming available to it sufficient to design and run a show with. Light Pallet III’s etc. not modern but did lots of stuff for it’s generation.

Were it me, I would go for the lower wattage dimmers - 1.2Kw even 600w per channel in gaining more control channels/dimmers. Smaller spaces etc. the more control you have the easier your job. Can always soft patch dimmers to control channels but where limited 2.4Kw dimmers go for their price, you cannot do the reverse. This soft patch concept includes if necessary assigning two dimmer packs to the same say DMX or Microplex control channels in making them as if the same dimmer pack. DMX control is preferred of course.

24 channels might be a bit limited for your grand scheme of things, at least get a board with memory backup that allows for soft patch and or cues programmed into it, this in addition to if two scene preset the 24x channels. 24x channels can be very limiting to a design assuming you don’t re-patch at some point during the show. At very least as per my past old TTI board, hopefully you will have the option to turn control channels into independent or master mode so as to control certain dimmers independent of the X/Y two scene preset. Helps a lot - as if a second light board at times.

NSI is a good economical brand of light board and dimmer. LightTronics as a brand has been around for a while now also in taking NSI’s place for a newer company that’s cheap but not really yet known if it will be dependable or not given its price. NSI did work out as decent, the newer brand, don’t know though they do sell lots to small theaters. While both are not ETC or Leprechaun persay, they do seem stand up to use well.

For light fixtures, remember to keep them small and wide angle. Law of squares says that given your throw distance, you don’t need as much wattage potential, plan for this.

As a concept and before you submit any recommendations, design a show in that space. As if back in school, design on paper a show that perhaps will be an above average lighting show your company could potentially put on in this space before you acquire it. Do all the paperwork and design to see what you really need, than add at least 25% to that so as to see where you now are in needs for the new space. Once you note dimmer channels, needing more fixtures even if lower wattage to provide an even wash etc. much less given more small gear with different colors from the same position etc. it might become a factor for the overall plan for what you need.

Assuming you already have some amount of light fixtures and cable, only add say 25% more to the budget to get more above the new dimmer/light board needs. Than of course pre-plan to need more immediately.

Originally Posted by thelightguy87

So one of my community theaters is moving to a new building, and going to buy some new equipment. This means I'm the one that gets to shop.
My first question, knowing I have a very small budget, small enough they didn't give me a range, they just said keep it affordable, and I don't know what that means. But I'm looking for a small dimmer. Either Dimmer packs or Dimmer Rack. I think 12ch would do. Now considering we are going from 1000W hardware dimmers on a 2x4 framed board, this is a big improvement. Our need is to be able to put 3 to 4 500W fresnels on each channel, if possible. but with a 2.4kw dimmer we should be alright. I'm not familiar with dimmer racks that are less than 24ch and are going to be in the 1000$ to 2000$ range max.
My first thought is to look at leprecon, as they have 6ch packs but i think they are only 1200W What kind of power do we need in order to power a small rack of say 12 2.4kw dimmers and we are looking to fill most of them up? We are having an electrician come out and run multiple circuits around the room, and through the ceiling. Basically this is a recreation room that is being turned into a small theater. Which is a joke cuz they rent it out to sports and dance classes and other groups and having lights on the 10ft ceiling is not the best idea. But thats beyond my say on the project.
Next question is control. I'd like at least 24 channels and be able to run cues. Any ideas of a small console that is again under 2000$?
We are currently brainstorming for this project, so if i can get any ideas and bring them to park district board for budget approval that'd be great. I don't really know where to start for low end, but decent consoles. I use computer software to run lights for my concerts, or when available an old ETC Insight from my high school...my favorite console ever...but anyways, I'm just looking for stuff to put my eyes on. Somewhere to start.
Thanks
Mike

[ship]

You have a 10' ceiling as stated.. PAR 64 fixtures - no matter LED or filament will be a bit out of scale for the space. This much less won’t top light will only front wash at best. Color Blast would possibly work better if thinking LED, so would PixelPup if you frosted them.

Stick to the PAR 46 and smaller type fixture, at most a Colemar PAR 56 LED or wait, there is a hoast of PAR 36 LED lamps TBA to the market or available now.

Still now that Color Kinetics has introduced a more rugged stage version of their popular Color Blast fixture which is a decent output wash light but designed for architectural settings..., expect that the older but still the same models of the Color Blast will be coming up more and more economical on the used gear market in the near future. Might wait around for such things - this assuming you have the DMX control channel ability to control them - also meaning a computerized light board or one heck of a two scene preset but in still limitation to it in also doing conventionals.

Don’t plan on your own personal gear for outfitting the theater. Or put it more wisely, never plan on your own gear to supplement the theater’s gear. Your 4 channel dimmer packs might help you and the theater out in growth or specials at times but the theater should provide sufficient equipment for its newfound needs. They should either buy them from you at market value so you can buy more, or plan to get more dimmers so they can do what you already are helping them get done.

Sounds to me if doing LED control channels and conventional channels that you already need a computer light board of some sort, or at very least should not solve your problems with just answering what you know you need without leaving room for growth. That would leave you in a short amount of time with a controller that becomes limited again in its ability as opposed to able to compensate and grow with the theater as it grows. 32 channels at the very least if not 48 and or a computer or semi-computer light board.

Also again with the 2,4Kw dimmer rack, I would say if possible go with a 16x1.2Kw dimmer rack for your use over that of a 8x2.4Kw dimmer rack. More control and if necessary again it could become a 2.4Kw rack by way of same DMX assignment.

Flexibilty and growth are something to remember and really plan for in figuring out what to buy even on a limited budget.

Originally Posted by thelightguy87

We have fixtures at the moment, possibly getting LED par64s for some toplight, and we are going to need cable, but we are going to get as much through the electrician as possible, that is, get tails run to most possible positions. I actually used to own that board, it got damaged in storage and now doesn't work and i moved to using software, but thats also only 12 ch. I'm looking for 24 possible channels of control, cuz if i get 4 LEDpar 64s patch them together thats 4 channels, then a 12 circuit dimmer, thats 16 channels, then I plan on using my personal 4ch dimmer packs for practicals and such where the main rack isn't accessable, i have 4 so thats another possible 16 dimmers. there only 600W so not the most useful for main lighting system. so im looking at 32 to 40 possible control channels needed, but minimized when patched. So I figure 24 should be enough. But other than that I do like the LP 600 since it can run cues too. I've become very happy with most leprecon consoles.
Anyone ever use a lightronics dimmer rack before? I'm looking at an 8 2400w circuit dimmer rack for about 1400. I don't have anything else yet to decide if thats reasonable, but i'd much rather go with a strand, leprecon or etc dimmer rack

[thelightguy87]

Thanks, I'll get working on that, perhaps an early design for the first show in the new space.

Our current inventory is
8 500W altman 6in fresnels
1 750W Strand SL 19 degree
1 750W Strand SL 26 degree

no light board, no dimmers, bunch of extension cable that won't be used for the new installation.

However, since I am the LD for this theater, I would bring in my 120W par 38's for wash reinforcement. I have 16 that I would bring, so wash wise, i think im set, and the pars would run off of my 4 600w per channel dimmer packs.

From doing a little bit of research tonight, what I have found in the 2.4kw range is the Lightronics RD-122 rack mountable dimmer pack. it seems like it would meet our needs.

Although I agree with multiple smaller dimmers, the head of the theater group prefers we 2fer/3fer lights to a circuit. But again, I don't agree with that. Maybe if I go to him with the prices of each option he'll change his mind. However, 1200w dimmers are well over double the price of 600W and comparable to 2400w dimmer packs, so if you have 750w lekos isn't it worth getting the larger dimmer. that way you have the option to 2fer if you really needed to.

[thelightguy87]

Originally Posted by ship

You have a 10' ceiling as stated.. PAR 64 fixtures - no matter LED or filament will be a bit out of scale for the space. This much less won’t top light will only front wash at best. Color Blast would possibly work better if thinking LED, so would PixelPup if you frosted them.
Stick to the PAR 46 and smaller type fixture, at most a Colemar PAR 56 LED or wait, there is a hoast of PAR 36 LED lamps TBA to the market or available now.
Still now that Color Kinetics has introduced a more rugged stage version of their popular Color Blast fixture which is a decent output wash light but designed for architectural settings..., expect that the older but still the same models of the Color Blast will be coming up more and more economical on the used gear market in the near future. Might wait around for such things - this assuming you have the DMX control channel ability to control them - also meaning a computerized light board or one heck of a two scene preset but in still limitation to it in also doing conventionals.
Don’t plan on your own personal gear for outfitting the theater. Or put it more wisely, never plan on your own gear to supplement the theater’s gear. Your 4 channel dimmer packs might help you and the theater out in growth or specials at times but the theater should provide sufficient equipment for its newfound needs. They should either buy them from you at market value so you can buy more, or plan to get more dimmers so they can do what you already are helping them get done.
Sounds to me if doing LED control channels and conventional channels that you already need a computer light board of some sort, or at very least should not solve your problems with just answering what you know you need without leaving room for growth. That would leave you in a short amount of time with a controller that becomes limited again in its ability as opposed to able to compensate and grow with the theater as it grows. 32 channels at the very least if not 48 and or a computer or semi-computer light board.
Also again with the 2,4Kw dimmer rack, I would say if possible go with a 16x1.2Kw dimmer rack for your use over that of a 8x2.4Kw dimmer rack. More control and if necessary again it could become a 2.4Kw rack by way of same DMX assignment.
Flexibilty and growth are something to remember and really plan for in figuring out what to buy even on a limited budget.

I used the par 36 LED lamps, but they definetely don't work well in a dimmer. I thought for the top light 4 of the LED par 64's I could keep them dim if i had to, but I want a very large wash from them, being that i'm so close. The height of the pars would be about 12ft, but thats still not much help. I'm still looking around for control, I don't want to get a 2 scene board because i'm so set on programming cues. my highschool, has in storage their very old ETC Insight and Expression consoles. I'm going to talk to them about possibly selling it or donating it to our theater, it helps the the head of our theater is the TD at the school...and most of our tech crew comes from that school...so i think i might be ok with control if i get that. I'll rethink the LED par 64's like you said, they are just too big. Do they have Par 46's in LED RGB mixing? link? and preferably not amdj. although in this height the amdj units might look alright. I'm gonna do what you said about designing on paper and see what i'd need. I only lean towards LED cuz that seems to be the only economical colormixing at the moment, as we wouldn't be able to get color scrollers or the CMY insert for lekos...can't think of the name of it. Color blast are pretty pricy, and even if we waited, we wouldn't be able to spend even 200+ on each unit. As I need to keep this install as cheap as possible. Since we have no shows this year, due to moving into the new space.

Thanks for the ideas

Mike