Some Questions About Safety

[rochem]

Hey all,

As I've been browsing this forum more and more, I keep finding many references to safety and OSHA regulations and such. It all got me thinking about how safe our operations are at my high school when we're hanging and focusing FOH instruments.

We have a bar at FOH which hangs from the ceiling about 1/3 of the way into the audience. There's no catwalk or anything, the only way to get up here is from the ground. Since there are seats below the bar, we are forced to use a ladder that is about 16-20 feet long. But the legs will not fit between the rows of seats. So we have to become creative. We find a large wooden table with legs retracted and set it upside down resting on the seat backs. We mount the ladder on top of the table and viola - you have a wobbly and unsturdy ladder that can slide down the seat backs at will (which are slanted down by the way). Now to actually do anything up there, you obviously have to have instruments and tools. So you grab your 15 pound Source 4 and free climb the ladder. Now you're finally at the top, but to hang the instrument you need both hands. So you brace your legs against the side of the ladder and lean out to try to get the safety cable over the bar before you drop it. During all of this you're basically praying that the table-with-ladder doesn't decide to start sliding down the rows of seats, which if it doesn't make you fall immediately, will give you a nasty bruise or two when that table reaches the front row and there's no more seats. It's worth mentioning that we have no one waiting at the bottom holding the ladder or the table, and nothing even resembling a fall arrest system. Also, while the aisles are carpeted, the areas under the seats are just cement with nothing over them. But that's only if the hundreds of seat backs below you didn't break your fall (and your neck) first.

I'm kinda curious as to what others think of this. Since we're a high school and we're not paid, I'm pretty sure OSHA doesn't apply, but assuming it did, would they be mildly uneasy with our setup? Also, does anyone have any ideas about what could be done to make it safer? There's no way we can get anything under there due to the seats, our only possibility would be some sort of a Genie that can extend about 20 feet out to one side. And we can't drive a cherry picker into our theatre, so that's not an option either.

Unfortunately, I think it is this way at many other schools. At least 2 other schools in my area have this same situation, and those are just the ones I've seen. I also have seen photos on here and elsewhere of high school theatres with the same issues. Do you all do the same thing, or are you slightly less suicidal than us? I myself have been up on that ladder many times, including once when I came within inches of falling from the top. My right foot was the only thing that was still on the ladder, and I luckily managed to regain my balance. The next person may not be so lucky.

So... What do ya think?

[MNicolai]

It's easy to think that as a high-schooler, you can get by, and then if you choose to move on with this as a profession, you'll be much safer and get through life just fine, but that doesn't work if you don't survive your teenage years.

The most important thing to remember is that as hard as it may be to tell somebody you don't want to do something because it doesn't appear safe, it's a lot harder to walk when your neck is snapped in two.

Food for thought.


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By the way, I know the position you're in. I've been in that position a lot. Just keep in mind that you don't always get a second chance.

[JD]

Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. In this case, you almost have to abandon using the FOH and go with some form of side lighting. You really are risking death or life as a paraplegic should and accident occur. About the only "safe" access would be with scaffold. I question what staff member would allow putting students at such risk.

[MNicolai]

Originally Posted by JD

Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. In this case, you almost have to abandon using the FOH and go with some form of side lighting. You really are risking death or life as a paraplegic should and accident occur. About the only "safe" access would be with scaffold. I question what staff member would allow putting students at such risk.

Scaffolding above seats is tricky, and even trickier if the seating plane is slanted. If that's the case, then even scaffolding is out of the question. If the scaffolding is put on on an angle, then it could easily become top-heavy and fall over. Depends on the grade and the height though. 16-20' is about 3 rungs of scaffolding up, borderline 4 if memory serves me correctly.

[waynehoskins]

Uh, yeah, not so safe.

There are three solutions I can think of that would be much less, as you say, "suicidal" than what you have (which I thought I was "unsafe" in using (moderately short) ladders on top of right-side-up tables on flat surfaces!).

I don't think I've seen an extending A-frame that wouldn't clear seats. This is quite probably the least expensive solution.

Also, there are straddle frames for Genie lifts (made by Genie), that will fit between rows of seats and elevate the conventional Genie over the seats. These are very slick, very cool, though since they have to support the weight of the whole stinking Genie and whatever's in it (and lift it up by cable to a position in the frame where it can be pinned) they add a lot of weight to the lift, not fun to try to push down a sidewalk solo and try to make it not end up in the grass.

More elegant (to me) and certainly less heavy is scaffolding, particularly the aluminum stuff, though the steel stuff (painter's scaff) isn't bad either. It breaks down really small and can be moved very easily.

Any of those three would be far preferable to what you have there, which is a disaster waiting to happen. Maybe not waiting, perhaps screaming.

The A-frame is I believe the least expensive, and they're available through the regular theatrical suppliers. It's not completely for the faint-of-heart, though with the situation you describe there, nobody will have heart problems from an extending A-frame. The scaff is next in cost, and it's probably the easiest to work from since you have a large platform at top that can hold people and things. The straddle frame I'm sure is stupid expensive.

It's also not that great to climb a ladder with a light or cable or whatnot in your hand. In college we had 5-gallon buckets with rope tied to the handles that were used to bring gel and other small things from the ground to the air; and we used a rope with a bowline in the end to bring lights up. It's much easier too if you can rig a sheave to the pipe, or at the least run the rope around the pipe, so the guy on the ground pulls the rope to raise the load, rather than you in the air lifting the load.

Also, that brings up another good point: the guy on the ground. Even on a perfectly safe ladder/lift/scaff you shouldn't be working in the air alone, especially in high school. There should always be at least one more person there, if nothing else to help you and, should you fall, be able to call 911.

Man, this may be a first: I'm usually the guy who doesn't have a problem doing "unsafe" things...

[derekleffew]

Sounds horridly unsafe to me.

Firstly, carrying anything up a ladder is verbotten. Have a professional show you how to rig a sheave at the lighting position and use a rope twice as long as the height and make the people on the ground do the hoisting.

Secondly, look into one of these, by JLG.


Genie Industries makes a similar device, specifically for straddling seats.


Thirdly, contact your local scaffolding supplier and invite them to offer a solution. Certain types of scaffolds are specifically designed to straddle obstacles and adjust for sloped surfaces. This will most likely be your most economic alternative.

Most importantly,
Stay safe, stay alive. Gravity kills!

[rochem]

Originally Posted by JD

I question what staff member would allow putting students at such risk.

The administration has officially forbidden students from ever getting up on the ladder, as it can be very dangerous. They even strongly discourage any adult from getting up there.

Unoficially, the principal helped me find and set up the ladder last time we were focusing lights.

You fill in the blanks. I think everyone realizes that we need to get lights up there, and this is the only way.

[fredthe]

Genie does make a base for one of their small lifts that's designed to allow operation over theater seats. This would certanly be the safest option.

Scaffolding would likely be the next best option, but it would need to be sized to fit over the seats properly, and properly leveled... this may be difficult to achieve.

Ladders should only be used on level, stable surfaces (but you probably already knew that.) I've been up on some prettly tall ladders, but I've always made sure that the base is stable, and usually had two people at the bottom just on case (for A-frame ladders.) I have, on several occasions, started up a ladder, only to come back down because it just didn't feel right. Don't be afraid to say no.

One possible good choice for a ladder would be the large, adjustable A-frame from Little Giant.
Little Giant SkyScraper Ladder ® from Little Giant Ladder ® - Type MXZ

As for OSHA, they may or may not be able to walk in and stop the unsafe practice before someone gets hurt. But that doesn't mean that it's not a good idea to pay attention to their guidelines.

-Fred

[Wolf]

This is very very unsafe. FYI OSHA does apply to High Schools. If you fall I think you'll be luck if you only get a broken wrist. Also as the other above have said you fall and die theres no chance of moving on and being in a better venue with a proper FOH. I know sometimes this is how things have to be done (that doesnt make it ok though). If OSHA walked in when this was happening the school would be in a lot of trouble. Also to the statement to hanging light, Take a rope with you that is preferably twice the length from floor to ceiling and put it over the pipe. Lower one end to the ground for someone to tie a bow-line onto the light so they can pull it up to you. And I hope that you attaching you wrench and other tools to your body. Also have someone holding at least the table sturdy, even if your only working on a A-Frame its always nice to have a dead weight (Person) on the other side.

Please be safe, we dont wont to loose any smart lighting technicians to a dumb accident like a ladder slipping.

-After thought- Take out a row or so of seats under the FOH bar get a genie under there.

[lieperjp]

Sounds terribly unsafe. Try to get something safer!!! Perhaps take pictures/video and send it to your board of education with the title: A lawsuit waiting to happen. Please help keep us alive!!!