Automated Fixtures - Why is intelligent lighting "dumb" on an ETC Lightboard

[indyLD]

I have a question that has always puzzled me about the semantics of lighting control. We all know that different consoles use different terminology but...

Why do *certain* consoles use the term Groups when they clearly mean Pallettes, Focusses ( or pretty much any other word that isn't Groups) ? I'm sure that the CBerati will be able to help me with this one.

[Mullet1215]

Originally Posted by Sony

You'll get caluses on the tips of your fingers from all the trackpad rubbing. ....It's basically just difficult and time consuming whereas with the new boards it's much easier.

In response to the getting caluses on my fingers you DO know that you can use the [+] and [-] keys to "scroll" through intensities, right?

So from the sound of it it is actually possible it just takes a long time to do. As far as focus points will someone explain to me how they are similar to groups because as far as I was aware they were more like a memory of a certain spot on stage (pan-tilt wise) that could be recalled later. Is that acruate? And how much if any of my programing can I do without the lights sitting in front of me?

[Mullet1215]

Also, Will I have to have seperate cues for my moving and my conventional lighting? (conventional on A/B fader and Moving on C/D Fader) I need a new cue for whenever a ML changes position right?

[Sony]

Originally Posted by Mullet1215

In response to the getting caluses on my fingers you DO know that you can use the [+] and [-] keys to "scroll" through intensities, right?

So from the sound of it it is actually possible it just takes a long time to do. As far as focus points will someone explain to me how they are similar to groups because as far as I was aware they were more like a memory of a certain spot on stage (pan-tilt wise) that could be recalled later. Is that acruate? And how much if any of my programing can I do without the lights sitting in front of me?

Yes I know you can scroll through intensities with + and - but it's much easier once you setup personalities properly to just type in [FIXTURE] + [FIXTURE NUMBER] and then use the Trackpad to control and set PAN and TILT. Focus points are pretty useless to me because usually in the productions I do the director rarely ever stands people in the same spot more than once unless there is a podium there or it's a key spot for monologues.

[derekleffew]

Expounding on Sarah's comments, "Focus Points" are more valuable, and work differently, than groups in that they can store all parameters, and be recalled selectively by using the [only] key. On the Express, I think it's a softkey. (Recalling from memory from 6 years ago, syntax may not be exact!, check the manual.) [Fixt] x [thru] y [at] [only] [color] [focus point] z [enter] [rec] [cue] a [track] [enter] [cue] a [go-ab] [rel] [rel] [rel]. Then if you decide the color is wrong, changing the color in FP# z will also change it in all cues that reference FP# z.

Originally Posted by Mullet1215

Also, Will I have to have separate cues for my moving and my conventional lighting? (conventional on A/B fader and Moving on C/D Fader) I need a new cue for whenever a ML changes position right?

Yes, you need a new cue for whenever a mover changes any parameter, not just position. Conventionals and movers can live on the same fader-A/B, leaving the C/D fader available for sub-routines (chases, can-cans, ballyhoos, rainbow color chase, etc.).

Again, since you haven't answered the questions previously asked, is the show a play, musical, variety show, or concert? Are you intending on cuing the entire show from start to finish, or will there be busking? Which ETC console are you using?

[Sony]

Originally Posted by Mullet1215

Also, Will I have to have separate cues for my moving and my conventional lighting? (conventional on A/B fader and Moving on C/D Fader) I need a new cue for whenever a ML changes position right?

No, not always, at least not in my experience, but my experience is all musicals and drama. We have 4 Apollo RightArms at my college and while they are much more simple, the basics of programming are the same. You will need a cue for each time you change any attributes on the fixture, but I found I can usually incorporate these into other already existing cues. Some examples would be if I'm using an Arm or I KNOW I will need it in the next cue and it's not being used in the previous 2 cues (I'll explain why 2 cues in a sec) then I will move it in THAT cue. This will get it into position for when I need it. Now the reason you need a 2 cue buffer is because if you're using it only 2 cues before...when you hit GO the fixture will start moving to it's next position before the light fully goes out. So you have 1 cue to black it out and then 1 cue to move/focus/set gobo's...etc it and then 1 cue to bring it back up with the new attributes.

These cues most of the the time can be incorporated into already existing cues and don't need their own cues. However they do sometimes need their own cues if you can't get that 2 cue buffer. I've found on the ETC Express board the easiest way to do this is to set a follow cue. So you would have one cue to black the fixture out and then you would save the cue again with only the attributes of the fixture changed. For example I usually number Follow Cues with a .5 or .2 at the end to make it easy for the SM understand that this is a follow cue and they don't need to call it out. So

Cue 1 would be the scene before the mover change
Cue 2 would be the Fixture Fadeout this cue would have an Auto-Follow set for however long the cue takes to go (so if the Fadeout is 3 seconds then the follow needs to be 3 seconds)
Cue 2.5 would be EXACTLY the same as Cue 2 EXCEPT for the moving fixtures attributes would change to the next needed values (Position, Color...etc.) This cue would go automatically due to the previous cue having a follow on it.
Cue 3 would bring the fixture back up to the needed intensity

I found it was easiest to keep the movers position CAPTURED and just trained myself to never hit the release button twice so they would always stay in the last position. This is fine for me because I usually build every cue from scratch using Submasters and Fader Bank on the 48/96 which is our main board. Using the [FIXTURE]+{FIXTURE NUMBER] method of changing the PAN and TILT of a fixture captures the channel attributes.

Once again, the Focus Point button is basically useless to me because the Director never usually places a person in the same spot consistently.

[sclausenETC]

Howdy -

Regarding the cueing thing, Express/ion consoles do not really work like any other multi-cue list console, so thinking of separating your movers from your conventionals in that way will only get you into trouble. ;-)

Regarding the naming of console functions, the answer is simply that there is no standard. The term "palette" for example is not the standard term. It's simply become the de facto standard because of the Hog 2 console. To my knowledge there is only one console that calls palettes groups, but that is because it's actually using the group object for a new purpose. In other words, if you record group 1 you cannot also have a focus group 1... I may be mistaken in that though.

As a console developer, I actually wish we did have some standard names for these things. But more importantly I wish that moving light manufacturers would standardize the naming of parameters. Managing parameter names is probably the most painful aspect of moving light control nowadays...

Getting off my soapbox now :-)

Sarah

Sarah Clausen
Controls Product Manager
ETC, Inc.

[Mullet1215]

Originally Posted by derekleffew

Again, since you haven't answered the questions previously asked, is the show a play, musical, variety show, or concert? Are you intending on cuing the entire show from start to finish, or will there be busking? Which ETC console are you using?

Sorry I forgot to answer these questions earlier. It is a variety show with music, dance and comedy acts, but the movers will probably only be used for the music and dance acts. It is my intention to cue the whole show from start to finish because I may need to train a board op ( and I would really like to only depend on someone to press [Cue Go]) And finnaly I will be using (or I currently have in my order) a Express 250.

[SteveB]

Originally Posted by sclausenETC

Howdy -

Regarding the naming of console functions, the answer is simply that there is no standard. The term "palette" for example is not the standard term. It's simply become the de facto standard because of the Hog 2 console. To my knowledge there is only one console that calls palettes groups, but that is because it's actually using the group object for a new purpose. In other words, if you record group 1 you cannot also have a focus group 1... I may be mistaken in that though.

As a console developer, I actually wish we did have some standard names for these things. But more importantly I wish that moving light manufacturers would standardize the naming of parameters. Managing parameter names is probably the most painful aspect of moving light control nowadays...

Getting off my soapbox now :-)

Sarah

Sarah Clausen
Controls Product Manager
ETC, Inc.

Remember as well that when Expression, then Express were released - early 90's ?, there was no Vista, nor GrandMA, I don't think Hog1 had been released and at this stage in console development, the manufacturers were still learning (and still are to a good extent) how to deal with ML's, all while the movers themselves were changing and growing.

Thus the Express/ion uses terminology that was appropriate to the era, groups being a common term for exactly what it is - a group of channels, which is something most theatrical designers call/ed them.

Palette was a console from Strand, until Flying Pig used the term for what ETC called Focus Points - which in my mind is very descriptive, except when using it for something other then position. The learning curve is still climbing here.

If you want a sense of how consoles develop and change, go thru a years worth of posts on the ETC Eos/Ion and Congo/Jr. forums and see how consoles are no longer being developed in secret in the factory by a bunch of engineers, but instead by a lot of theater people with a website where they get feedback from other users in the field and then subsequently and frequently adapt the console to what all those users requirements and experiences represent.

It's a remarkable step forward in console development, IMO.

Steve B.

[porkchop]

First I'd like to correct an error in my last post it was an Expression 3 that I programmed on not an Express 3.

Moving on. You have now told us that you have an Express 250 and want to program 5 - 10 Mac 500s. Lets take a little walk down math lane here. The Express 250 has 250 channels. A Mac 500 takes up 12 - 16 channels per unit. So you are going to need anywere from 60 to 160 channels just to control your MLs before even taking into concideration your conventionals. Well that's a big range, so lets look at what I would call your most common layouts.

First of all, please get pairs of lights unless you have a specific reason to have an odd number. I'm going to guess you don't so I'm going to only use the numbers 6, 8, and 10 as posibilities.

Second, channel usage. Two of the possile extra channels are for 16 bit pan and tilt over 8 bit. 16 bit isn't exactly fun on an Express and in your situation it's two channels you can save. Vector movement is another option but having never used it myself and reading over it's description in the users manual I'd say scrap it and save channels. So 12 channels per unit it is.

Math time, this is where you look at your current plot and figure out how many lights you are going to use to see what you have room for. Here are the options that I've narrowed down to:

6 fixtures @ 12 channels each = 72 channels
8 fixtures @ 12 channels each = 96 channels
10 fixtures @ 12 channels each = 120 channels

So if you only have one rack of 96 dimmers you can get the full load of 10 fixtures with room to spare. But if you have 192 dimmers and you want to use all of them you might want to look into renting another console or just getting 4 Macs as that is all that will fit channel wise.

Final thought, since the express can output to two different universes I would HIGHLY suggest running the MLs on universe two if it is currently unused as is commonly the case. This way you don't have to worry about overlapping control channels and dimmers.