Control/Dimming - New light board for a high school

[Sony]

Originally Posted by midgetgreen11

I completely disagree. An express was much more in my high schools price range. An ION costs almost 2k more, without submasters, which have to be added on and purchased

I don't know where you're getting your prices from...but I've got price quotes for both the base Ion and the Express 250 and they are both $4000 without any extra's. You just need to know where to look... I got my quotes from ALPS, Chris Souza is a great guy, gets me good prices!

[midgetgreen11]

I got a quote on an express 24/48 from ALPS, for about $3200. Just kidding, with the submasters its almost 2k more.

[SteveB]

Originally Posted by Sony

I don't know where you're getting your prices from...but I've got price quotes for both the base Ion and the Express 250 and they are both $4000 without any extra's. You just need to know where to look... I got my quotes from ALPS, Chris Souza is a great guy, gets me good prices!

The $4000 price for a base Ion doesn't include a fader wing. A 2x10 is around $900, which generally puts the Ion WITH a similar number of subs to a Express 250, at a higher price then what you could purchase an Express. Which is why everyone's been commenting for months about the hole between Ion and Smartfade.

But then you actually go and play with an Ion and you discover all the huge improvements over Express/ion's, plus all the goodies, such as dual LCD screens, and - Yeah, I know, a HIGH SCHOOL doesn't need LCD screeens, according to all us so-called experts. Then you start to use the Radio Remote Focus Unit and the next thing you know, you're begging for some Martin 700's and some SeaChangers.... How many posts here and over on LightNetwork do we have to read about some poor soul asking for advice about how to program a modest number of ML's and scrollers plus conventionals, all on an in-house Express 250. First piece of advice everyone gives is ditch the console.

The bottom line is that technology move on, and even a high school should not be limiting themselves to old gear and methods. If an Ion costs bit more then a 15 year old Express, and does TONS more, as well as allowing for easy inclusion of new gear over the years, then it's my advice to go with the better technology.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

[gafftaper]

First, we have some incorrect terminology going on here so I'm going to attempt to explain the Strand console line: There are two lines Palette and Light Palette. Palette comes in the following formats 16 subs, 32 subs, 128 subs, and in a 32/64 and 48/96 preset configurations. The Palette line runs from somewhere under $5k to a around $15k (depending on channel counts, universes, and console configuration). Their higher end series is named Light Palette (yeah that's not confusing at all). The Light Palettes are up in the Eos price range. There are three different console configurations for Light Palette. All have 12 playback faders, 4 encoder wheels and have a faster CPU, more memory and more channels/universes than the Palette line. Light Palette Live adds 48 subs to this configuration. Light Palette VL ads 24 subs and a section of 100 fully programmable keys. All consoles from both product lines run the exact same software. There is very little you can do on a $30k Light Palette that you can't also do on the $7k Palette (within the obvious restrictions of universes and channels). Access to some things is on the lower end boards is done with a mouse instead of encoders... but the functions are all still there. If you compare the buttons on a Palette to a Light Palette, there are only one or two buttons that they add for the big board (and those functions are available via the mouse on the low end boards).

Second to Sony, Unfortunately I only know list prices but I can tell you that an Ion with one wing panel has a list price of about $2000 more than a Basic Palette. If you say you can get an Ion with a wing panel for about $5k, then you should be able to get a Basic Palette for a lot less than that... but I haven't asked for that price quote so I can't give you an exact number.

Also as I've said many times prices depend on many factors. Your sales guy may decide he doesn't like me, or he may have just found out that his kids need braces when I ask for a quote. If your dealer sells more ETC product than mine they will get a better wholesale price than mine. If you spend $500 a year at your local dealer and I spend $100k a year, I'm going to get a better deal than you because the over all profit they make off of me is much larger, they can afford to cut me a deal to encourage me to keep shopping there. If you are purchasing a $100k lighting package including a console and I'm just getting the console I'll pay more than you because there is more room for them to make you a deal and still make a profit. Thus just because you can get an Ion and wing panel for $5k doesn't mean I can... even from the same sales guy.

Third Alex and Steve, my problem is not that ION is intimidating or difficult to learn, it's a fabulous console that anyone can learn standard functions on in a few minutes. With at least one wing panel it's a great console for any application. Furthermore I fully agree with ETC's decision to get rid of 2 scene presets as well. My problem is the price. Ion is not a true replacement for the Express line because it isn't priced the same as the Express line. From what I've been told list price on an Express 24/48 was about $2500 less than an Ion with a wing panel. For many small all conventional fixture venues that's just too much to pay for a console that they will never scratch the surface of it's capabilities. Things are not likely to change any time soon in funding for high schools. Yeah once in a while one hits the jackpot and gets a few moving lights that they have no way to control but the vast majority of them are no where near that tech level. Again the nice thing about the basic palette is that you can upgrade the channel and universes if you need to AND you still have all the new software functionality of their most expensive consoles.

Finally, My apologies to ST and the ETC crew. I sound like I'm endlessly bashing your products and harping on this issue, when in fact I'm a huge fan of your consoles. So while it's unrelated to this discussion, for the sake of fairness it's time I point out that there is a similar problem with the Strand console line that I haven't mentioned before.

Let's say you are a university or mid sized theater/church. You've got a large inventory of conventional gear, you've got some scrollers, some rotators, and a half a dozen movers you use regularly. You don't have a Vegas budget but you do have enough to add a little equipment each year... and you are slowly building your inventory of intelligent toys. I think this is a fairly common scenario especially at the university level. Now look at the Strand line... 2 scene preset (out of date concept), 125 subs (not bad if you are busking but programing all those subs without encoders would suck), the 32 sub Classic palette is a great option for this type of theater... but wait no encoders again. Where are the encoders? Well you have to go all the way to the $30k Light Palette series to get encoders. True the Strand consoles have access to all controls of intelligent gear by using the mouse... but that's NOT the same as encoders. I asked if they planned to release an encoder wheel expansion wing panel and was told not at this time. So in the same way that ETC has missed the mark on the low end by not offering a cheaper option without intelligent gear in mind, I think Strand has goofed up the middle part of the market by not offering a little better option with intelligent gear in mind.

(Sorry Rob, it was time to be fair and share the criticism a bit.)

[thenelsontwins]

If you have to, ETC is the way to go. I truly wish that companies would stop buying out the Strand company so they would just go out of business. (sorry, they were great once, but they have not aged well) Hopefully their new Palette series will eclipse the Strand 300/500 debacle they created.

I digress. Etc, everyone knows Etc, simple to use. If you could find a used insight 2 or 3 that would take care of your submaster issue, but the Expression is build like a tank and also easily found used.

But for the price, you could pick up the new Jands Vista S3 which will, as it did me, blow your mind... seriously. We now have 4 of the Vista i3 with 20" Cintiq tablets. Life changing and fairly inexpensive.

I worked as the technical director where we had many student employees and the vista would be perfect for them. Easy to use, simple to understand, expandable, etc.

The S3 is basically a wing which attaches to a computer (pc or mac) and there you go. I would think that up front, you could more easily weasel a computer from the school and save a couple grand and apply that money toward the new desk. Super stable operating system, even on a pc, from what I have seen. (as long as students aren't browsing the interweb).

[SteveB]

Originally Posted by thenelsontwins

Hopefully their new Palette series will eclipse the Strand 300/500 debacle they created.

Exactly what debacle are you referring to ?.

The 500 series is a very well respected console, great OS, very good console for theatrical events merging ML's with conventional, and is a popular console on Broadway, as well as in the UK.

Perhaps you are referring to Strands issues with tech support ?, which has been lacking over the years as they get rolled into one company or another.

Most people buy ETC due to the terrific tech support, the S4 lighting instruments and rock solid dimmer systems, while not always being thrilled with the operating systems and syntax of the consoles.

Steve B.

[thenelsontwins]

Sure the Strand 500 series has earned a place in the theater world, and god love it for what it is.

It seems, in my use of a Strand 550 for many years, you either love it or hate it. Personally, I hate it and I was pretty good with it.

I battled daily with the master electrician at a venue for that time period who loved and swore by it. I would rather program with an old punch card than use a Strand 500/300 series.

Now, I do have a soft spot in my heart for Strand desks as my first professional design job still utilized a Light Palette 3 in 1996 (!), which was then replaced by an Obsession 2, then an Expression 3.

That being said, I understand that the console is loved in the UK and it continues to be a popular Broadway desk, but it is not the kind of interface that is easily learned by the average high school student (or university student for that matter.) I don't know if it is the syntax they used for the desk, but I would much sooner sit a 16 year old in front of an ETC desk and tell him/her to 'wing it' with a mere cursory understanding of lighting controls, practices, and terminology than a 500 series.

This is merely my opinion of this console. Yes, it did a fine job bridging the gap between a pure conventional console and a basic moving light desk and beat the pants off of the ETC ML interface of the time, but much has happened since then, which is probably why Strand abandoned the platform.

Perhaps the NEW Light Palette desks have a new improved, more user friendly interface than the 500/300 series, I certainly hope so.

I most assuredly don't want to spark an argument regarding the viability of the Strand 500 series, but from my experience working in many different academic environments, with a range of students, the desk has a serious learning curve.

And finally, unless things have changed dramatically in the US over the last six months, Strand service is certainly lacking and their supply chain for parts is abysmal at best.

[gafftaper]

The new Strand Palettes are extremely user friendly. You could give any student who has a basic understanding of lighting a 15 minute lesson and a cheat sheet and they'll easily be able to do basic programming. The same is true with the new ETC consoles by the way.

As for tech support, I have had several problems with my new install... surprise who doesn't. Strand has been very responsive to get people out to fix things quickly. They have answered my questions and fixed my problems. I haven't had any parts go bad so I don't know about the supply chain yet. I did need a software update on my PDA that needed to be done by them. I mailed it to Strand and they got it back to me a little over a week later.

[SteveB]

Originally Posted by thenelsontwins

Sure the Strand 500 series has earned a place in the theater world, and god love it for what it is.

I

Your experiences is part of the age old debate over who loves the old Light Palette syntax and who likes Expression and there's no winners in this argument, only opinions.

I for one, having had both an LP and Colortran Prestige background (plus the last 10 years on Express/Emphasis), always had difficulty explaining to a student the logic (or lack of) on the Express of having to record a cue THEN load it onto a fader set, which is a simple function Palettes always understood and did automatically, as well as understanding the need to Release. The Eos/Ion now thinks more like the old Palettes - though the ETC folks would say more like Obsession, but at this point, teaching students Expression/speak is a going to be a moot issue.

I also think a comparision between an Express, or even Expression, and a 520i is not really fair (in terms of which console you would rather teach a newbie on), as the Strand is a generation ahead of the Express/ion OS and has TONS more stuff to learn, which maybe helps explain why a 520 can be intimidating. The Ion and Eos certainly are, and many folks here lament the loss of Express on favor of Ion, especially for High Schools and such, probably due to the inherent complexity. Express is simple, 'cause when it came out, lighting control was far less complicated.

Steve B.

[derekleffew]

Originally Posted by gafftaper

The new Strand Palettes are extremely user friendly. You could give any student who has a basic understanding of lighting a 15 minute lesson and a cheat sheet and they'll easily be able to do basic programming. ...

Originally Posted by gafftaper

Well I had my training. It was five hours of my life I'll never get back. The guy was a hardware guy with little knowledge of the console itself or the ideas behind the Horizon based software. He did upgrade me to the new software and it is pretty cool. He knew everything about the network but didn't know anything about the console or software. It wasn't just a matter of being new to the software, he didn't know what the DBO button did (the help feature revealed DBO means Dead Black Out).A well placed complaint e-mail to a friend of Derek's got me in touch with the head software guru who felt so bad he gave me his home phone number. So I think things are going to improve a little.

In searching the Strand site for contact information to complain I found this statement which really had me laughing. "Strand Lighting has a proven record of support that others seek to emulate and which ensures that customers can invest with confidence. When you needs us, our highly trained product specialists are here to assist you."

Hey Steve Terry, I hear "others seek to emulate" Strand. Do you have a guy you send out to train customers on new systems who doesn't know what the buttons on the console do, what a blocking cue is, or the basic concepts behind how the console handles intelligent gear? I had five hours of training, half of which were spent reading the help screen with my trainer. I hear it's something you might want to "emulate".

Originally Posted by gafftaper

We covered how to program a sub, cue, and turn a light on in the first 15 minutes. But that was where his knowledge seemed to end. We video taped the session so that I could break down all the information and then cut my own video series... uh not any more. The camera man later said, "I got a lot of great shots of you looking at the help screen".

It appears Strand should have sent "any student who has a basic understanding of lighting" to train you.
In order to appear unbiased:

Originally Posted by gafftaper

I Had an OUTSTANDING 6 hour training session today with one of the Horizon software writers for the Strand Palette. Strand really stepped up and made things right flying in a guy from Calgary to spend the day with me (for you Bobby Harrell fans, I'm told they tried to get him for me but he was already booked for a trip to Europe).
He REALLY knew his stuff and was an excellent teacher. The guy even bought me lunch.

There are apparently several issues with the Black and Tan software so there is an update coming out in a few weeks. He tells me that they have four people who have the full time job of fixing bugs and adding new features to the software. There must have been a dozen times in the training that we talked about a feature that would be kind of cool. Many of them are already in the works to be added to future software updates, others were possible and just a matter of them deciding there was enough demand to make it worth writing the software. For example the bump buttons are all momentary. There's no reason they couldn't be toggles... it's just a matter of them deciding it's worth adding that feature and write the code. It sounds like they plan on releasing regular software updates every few months reacting to the requests of their customers. He said they try to turn around requests for new fixture personalities in a day or two. As I've said in other posts in the past I've always liked the Horizon software and I'm really impressed with what they've done with it since I first used the basic PC version about 4 years ago.

They now have a website with forums for the new software. He says their software developers and the Strand Console experts are hanging out there all the time to answer questions and get feedback about bugs, new gear that needs personalities written, and for ideas of new features to add. You can even become a beta tester through the site.

Link to ETC Community forums