Sensor vs ET Intelligent Raceway

[thommyboy]

I am working with a group specing out for a new space. We are looking at a mostly ETC rig in terms of control (Eos main ION studio) and fixtures(S4 ERS, Zoom, PARnel).
What I would like to know is given the option would you rather have an Entertainment Technology IGBT Intelligent Raceway with the 220v drops and Data runs OR Sensor Racks and have to run additional power and data runs for the intelligent fixtures (VL 3500 wash and spot)

[Footer]

If you can afford the sensor install, do that. I am a big fan of the smart bar technology if you need 12 to 24 dimmers in a multi purpose space. It saves on wiring and space. I would never attempt to put that system into a large facility just due to scalability concerns. With one of those systems you have a lot more failure points throughout the system, not to mention what you have to go through to reset a breaker. You will be much happier with an installed rack, if you can afford it. However, if the installed rack vs more dimmer question comes up, take the more dimmers.

I have not worked with one of these systems that flys before, but I do have a feeling they weigh more then a traditional raceway. Be sure to take the weight into consideration. I have been to too many places that require an electric to be married after putting 15 fixture on it because the raceway weighs to much.

Also, (and ETC will do it) you can get a data drop on every electric as well as a twistlock connection on every electric. These twist lock connection should be wired to a relay module, not a dimmer module, and you will have instant mover power and on every electric. I have this in one of my spaces and its fantastic.

[TimMiller]

I once did a price sheet for sensor racks and the bars. The bars were going to end up costing much more and the threat of heat was an issue (top of this place would get to be 100+) The big cost came into running all off the power up to the catwalk and all over. Also the problem of having one go out and then you losing a bank rather than just one channel. Also the loading on a per channel basis. I want to say they are only 1200W max so you cannot even plug 2 750's into one dimmer which really made it look bad. The racks turned out to be a much better choice (there is a reason why all of these big install companies are installing racks over bars). Also you have to factor in you can only have 32 bars per dmx output, so the cost of all the extra data runs along with splitters really kicked the price up. What i do is i install a sensor rack, and then next to the rack i install a panel that that provides circuits to the moving lights. I then install the plugs where appropriate throughout the space. Running power for 220 costs the same as running power for 110V except for the cost of plugs which gets expensive quick. There is no since in buying 220V relay modules for the sensor rack and then losing all of your potential dimmer space. It is much more cost effective to just run another panel (if your transformer is big enough, it probably will be, just run the panel off of the same transformer). What also works really well for budget constraints but future upgrades is to run some extra pieces of conduit from the mover power to the catwalk and off stage somewhere incase you decide to add more later on. You never know if you decide to even add some 3 ph in for chain motors b/c your lighing positions from the cat are worthless.

Also its totally worth getting a data drop onto each electric including at least one data drop to the catwalk. Put all of you data drops on a seperate universe than your dimmers.

Also have you actually fully checked out the ION or just word of mouth? I get along better with a strand 520 than i do with an ION but thats my personal opinion. We have been spec-ing the road hog for all new installs, its the same price with a lot more functionality.

[SteveB]

Pro's and Cons to both

ET IGBT Pro's

- The big claim is less cable needed saving on wiring costs. A circuit breaker panel is needed somewhere for the 3 pole 20 amp breakers going out to the bars, as 3 circuits/dimmers can share a neutral, VS. having to run separate neutrals PER CIRCUIT on a central DPC system.

- Ea. outlet has a local On/Off switch for testing, focus, etc,, easily over-ridden from DMX control.

- You automatically get DMX at the position, as the bar/box needs control. Not sure how robust the ET network and DMX/Data distro is, though the website lists Ethernet at the raceway, with Pathport available.

- IGBT's are very reliable, and - in theory - you don't run into issues having to reset breakers due to shorts, etc...

- They come in 1.2kw circuits, which is very appealing, especially given the ETC survey that indicated few loads were above 750, typically. I believe a single 2.4kw IGBT can power dual circuits at 1.2kw, which can be very useful if you suddenly need a 2kw fresnel. Having 1.2kw's, can greatly reduce the cost of wiring. Instead of running 12 - #10's for 6 x 20 amp branch circuits, you run 4 - #10's for either 3x2.4, OR 6x1.2, seems very cost effective.

ET IGBT Con's:

- Few in use (as compared to Sensor), thus parts ?, support ?,

- Network/Data distro ?, seemed weak when I looked at it years ago, but back then it was all DMX, now it's Ethernet, which is off-the-shelf stuff, and they're doing Pathway now, so possibly improved.

- Heat ?. Big issue, as the heat load for the theater is now at the raceway, not in a controlled HVAC environment, where dimmer racks want to be. Note that the ET devices are very, very sensitive to heat and care must be taken to guarantee correct air flow around the raceway/boxes, as there are no fans to get air moving.

- Weight ?. This was a HUGE issue for us, as the ET Raceway is a lot heavier then a standard raceway, and if it's not on a winch, I wouldn't do it.

- IGBT's are not a huge improvement to standard SSR's, thus no real advantage, possibly less harmonics ?. Not sure about that.

- No ability to convert a circuit to dedicated clean power. IGBT's do not power ML's any nicer then an SSR. Thus still a need for dedicated power, though the ET website makes mention of ability to be fed 120 and 208 constant power for ML power. Not sure exactly what they are doing.


ETC Sensor/Central rack thoughts:.

- Rock solid, parts readily available and will be for ever. ETC support

- Ability to convert a pair of circuits to relay/constant, thus possibly less requirement for a lot of dedicated power everywhere.

- The ETC "System" - I.E., console, dimmers, network and nodes, RRFU's, as well as raceways and distro, is very robust.

- Everybody uses ETC thus everyone understands it.

ETC Cons:

- Not many, just the need for a lot of separate dedicated power outlets, though the system we are currently designing will spec. as SmartSwitch, which can do 208. I'm not spec'ing 208 though, as very few ML's NEED 208, as all are self sensing and can run off 120, just more circuits needed for a lot of fixtures. Does installing 208 help you with anything else ?.

My initial $.02

Steve B.

[STEVETERRY]

Originally Posted by thommyboy

I am working with a group specing out for a new space. We are looking at a mostly ETC rig in terms of control (Eos main ION studio) and fixtures(S4 ERS, Zoom, PARnel).
What I would like to know is given the option would you rather have an Entertainment Technology IGBT Intelligent Raceway with the 220v drops and Data runs OR Sensor Racks and have to run additional power and data runs for the intelligent fixtures (VL 3500 wash and spot)

I have some thoughts on this, and my company Production Arts was probably the first large adopter of ETI IPS dimming in the 90's. Now I work for ETC.

So, with everyone's permission, I will lurk for a while longer before weighing in, so we don't run the risk of turning this thread into a commercial spat until the end.

So we can consider the answer carefully, can you tell us what size of systems you are considering? Please tell us the total number of dimmers and capacity for both the rack and distributed choices.

ST

[derekleffew]

Thank you for your restraint, STEVETERRY.

thommyboy, just curious why you're limiting the discussion to an installed rack vs. an IGBT raceway? One would think there would be some savings gained by sourcing everything from one manufacturer. Have you considered the SmartBar and/or SmartModule?

Many of us have seen the Rack vs. "dimmer at the fixture" debate before. In the 1980s some Rock&Roll lighting companies tried to convince us "dimmers in the truss" was the future. I don't know of a single touring company doing that today. Of course, I had the same thoughts about powered speakers.
edit: Research shows that the concept of "dimmer at the fixture" was proposed in A Digital Lighting System for the Theatre, Master Thesis of Fine Arts Yale School of Drama pp. 1-48, May 1974 by Dirk Epperson. Once an assistant to LD F. Mitchell Dana, Mr. Epperson today is VP and Co-Founder of http://www.kabira.com/, a software solutions company.

Originally Posted by SteveB

...I'm not spec'ing 208 though, as very few ML's NEED 208, as all are self sensing and can run off 120, just more circuits needed for a lot of fixtures. Does installing 208 help you with anything else ?...

thommyboy specifically mentioned "VL 3500 wash and spot," which require 200-240 VAC, 50/60 Hz.

[thommyboy]

I am looking for 288 dimmers. The reason I was looking more to the ET intelligent raceways was the scalability. It looked like they could be used for a larger install than the smartbar/smart module.

I was thinking the raceway also for the ability to place pig tails, DMX and 208 in a single package...though I guess that does increase the chances for a single issue turning into multiple issues.

[DaveySimps]

I have an install of almost 400 IGBT dimmers on 8 electrics, and have roughly the same size install of sensor racks in another space, and have had both for at least 5 years (the Sensor one longer). I think both are great products, but based on heavy usage, I would recommend the Sensor racks. Definately pay to get the data drops and power for moving lights though. It is a great thing to have.

~Dave

[Footer]

Originally Posted by thommyboy

I am looking for 288 dimmers.

Thats a LOT of heat. Also, a lot of weight. I think you know my vote...

[DaveySimps]

FYI, heat and weight really are not an issue for us with the ET System. Yes it is more weight, but we move them on standard single purchase counterwirght systems with on real issues. The heat is not an issue at all.

~Dave