Streaming Performances over the Internet

[telekid]

Hi, all. I have an interesting problem. I am working on a show that involves streaming lots of live video over the internet. Essentially, the show will be taking place in three different venues around the globe. Each venue will need to be able to stream two live video feeds to the other two venues; and, likewise, each venue will need to be able to receive two video feeds from each of the other two venues. That is a total of four video inputs and four video outputs per venue. Because these video streams connect actors to other actors across the globe, latency needs to be as little as possible (under half a second would be optimal.)
Obviously, this requires massive amounts of bandwidth. Anyone here have any suggestions as to how I might go about doing this? Is it even possible? Can this be done using software-only methods with, say, a Mac Pro (along with multi-output video cards and multi-input capture cards)? Or are there hardware-based solutions that I should look at?
I've done a little googling, but nothing adequate has turned up.
Thanks in advance!

[SHARYNF]

I have done something like this but on a much lower scale. I have uses Vbrick units. I suggest that you might want to contact them

Enterprise IP Video Solutions | Streaming Live Video

Some of the issues I found was that Cable connections for Internet work OK for download but are NOT workable for upload. I used dedicated hardware encoders to reduce the latency of going via a pc. I used Mpeg1 ad a 1.5mbit data rate for good quality (vhs level)

The issues also come down to Size of the image, the Quality you want, a lot of times the method to get the images down the pipe is to reduce the frame rate which will not work in you case with the need for low latency.


I had several schools all on a 5 meg Pipe connection, but they were all local

you are looking at possibly a 10-20 meg connection that you can link world wide to the three locations. You might need to get a system setup where you hub to one central location so everyone connects in there instead of all the interconnection

So say you were the central point, everyone would connect to you, how may unique sources are there, is it really just that each site creates is own source but needs to see the other two? It is like a Video Converence link but again latency can be an issue. USUALLY you can get a low latency Audio link and then have slower scan video, but without knowing how the event is being staged this could be an issue

For BIG productions on a world wide basis you might need to get the services of a company that can give you world wide access for a limited time


Most of the streaming solutions world wide might have difficulty with your latency requirements

Streaming Media Global - Octoshape and CaptiveWorks Launch Worldwide Streaming to Set-Top-Boxes

Octoshape - Large Scale Live Streaming Solutions

Just about anything is possible if you have the budget.

Sharyn

[fredthe]

OK, to start, are you talking SD or HD video? What sort of quality are you looking for? What is the size of the displays? Is this for a single or multiple performances? Do you have any sort of a budget?

To give you an idea of scale, to do broadcast quality SD, with minimum delay, you'd need a minimum 16 Mbps (both ways) connection from each venue to a major internet backbone provider. Even then, you will likely have delay variations that will cause you problems. It's going to be very hard to get something consistant accross the internet... This is why there are many companies in the business of providing video transport.

Oh, and forget software encoders. You'd never get under 500 ms with that.

If you can live with about a half-second (round-trip) delay, you also might want to consider satellite links. If it's for a one-off event, depending on the locations, it might be easier and cheaper.
(Oops, my real job is showing)

-Fred

[telekid]

Thanks guys! As of yet, I don't have much information regarding budget or scale of this piece, which won't take place until sometime this spring. We're very much still in the brainstorming phase of things. Sat-Links sound both promising and prohibitively expensive. Any idea how much that would cost?
I would imagine our video quality requirements will be somewhere around SD, perhaps even lower depending on the set design.
It may be easiest to visualize this as two simultaneous three-way videoconferences. It is interesting to note that two three-way conferences is easily accomplished using iChat distributed between six computers and a decent connection at each. (I suppose that I am essentially looking for a reliable, higher quality version of iChat, then? Of course, I wouldn't actually want to rely on an IM network. But why is a solution that gets me so close to what I am looking for essentially free, while the other solutions proposed seem to use astronomical amounts of bandwidth and similar amounts of money?)

[Footer]

Bradley University in Peoria IL did something like this last year. You might want to contact them and see if they have any pointers.

Add It Up (Live design article)

[SHARYNF]

Originally Posted by Footer

Bradley University in Peoria IL did something like this last year. You might want to contact them and see if they have any pointers.

Add It Up (Live design article)

I am reasonably familiar with this production, remember it used INTERNET2 with MASSIVE bandwidth granted the link I have provided below also was for a convert that used the same Internet2 link

The Vbrick solution I was working with was designed for lower bandwidth, granted at VHS quality but at 1.5 meg BITS the quality was surprisingly good with not a bad latency (I seem to remember under a few frames. This of course does not take into consideration the Internet delay, You could run a Ping test from the locatioins to get an idea of the delay (I would guess at least 200 plus Milliseconds

As always it will be a trade off of budget and just how fancy you want to get

Here is a link to a pdf on a Performance NYU
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~rr6/rowe_rolnick.pdf

Note the Latency delay issues and audio feedback IMO the article does a good job of raising and showing how to a certain extent these issues were addressed

I happen to use the same Vbrick 3000 units There happen to be 10 of the for sale on Ebay for 500 dollars total. Search VBRICK (you will also see vbrick units show up from Utah that is because University of Utah used them for a big educational system



Anyway sounds like an interesting project


Sharyn

[telekid]

Originally Posted by SHARYNF

Here is a link to a pdf on a Performance NYU
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~rr6/rowe_rolnick.pdf

Haha. Funny you linked to an NYU production - the one I'm working on is for NYU as well!

I'll definitely look into the Vbrick system. Sounds interesting.

[SHARYNF]

I'd give Vincent Graziani the CEO or Rich Mavrogeanes the founder a call Since they are in Wallingford Connecticut they probably can help you out

VBrick Executive Team
Sharyn

[derekleffew]

This story may or may not be applicable to your intended use: Actors Unions Stop Live Stream of Show--Stage Directions.

[icewolf08]

You might also consider contacting VideoLink Inc. They provide satellite, fibre optic, and webcast transmissions services as well as production services. They do a lot of linking multiple locations for conferences and events. Not knowing what you budget is, it is hard to make good recommendations, however, if you need good reliability I wouldn't suggest many of the "off the shelf" web-meeting type software. Unless you know that you have the bandwidth to support it, you are taking a big risk when your quality of show relies on networking technology.