Direct Feed from Camcorder to Projector

[balex]

Hey folks. I've been trying to find a low-cost, easily implemented solution to a problem that I've been having, but there's precious little that I can find on the topic.

I am looking to project video to room sizes varying from 100 to 400 people. The projection will be to a screen on stage and the video needs to be a live feed of the action currently happening on stage. That is, I'd like a video camera to be capturing the action of a stage show and piping it directly and live to a projector .

The cameras that I have available all have firewire output and are MiniDV cams. I do not have a projector as of yet, though I'm looking for recommendations on that as well.

My questions are as follows:

1.) Is it possible to send a live feed directly from a MiniDV, firewire output camera to a projector? I've seen some conversion boxes, and even a cable from Sony that looks like it will convert firewire to standard composite video, but this not being my area, I'm not sure of it all... I'd like to eliminate the need for anything like a computer in between the camera and projector.

2.) What inputs - given the above - should I realistically be looking for on a projector?

3.) What projectors - and specifically what low-cost projectors - might be able to do the job for me? How many ANSI lumens should I be looking for given the audience size. Lighting is controlled for and it can be relatively dark in the room while the projection is on.

The quality overall need not be "stellar." I don't need any high def options or anything. So long as the general action is captured, projected and is generally visible I'm happy.

I'm open to any and all information and suggestions. I've been trying to solve this for a while now but all the local electronics stores are clueless, and I'm not willing to make a $500 purchase on only a "hunch" that it might work.

Thanks!

[TupeloTechieKid]

For the First Question, your DV cam should have a jack that says something like "A/v out." It looks like a mini TRS jack but it is a little bit longer than the standard style TRS jack. You then have a breakout cable that has 3 RCA plugs, white and red (for audio) and yellow (for Video.) You only need to use the yellow. I'm not sure about cables for a lengthy run or what projector you need, but someone else should be around soon to answer those questions.

[Van]

[quote=balex;97702]Hey folks. I've been trying to find a low-cost, easily implemented solution to a problem that I've been having, but there's precious little that I can find on the topic.

Originally Posted by balex

......I am looking to project video to room sizes varying from 100 to 400 people. The projection will be to a screen on stage and the video needs to be a live feed of the action currently happening on stage. That is, I'd like a video camera to be capturing the action of a stage show and piping it directly and live to a projector ......



My questions are as follows:
...

3.) What projectors - and specifically what low-cost projectors - might be able to do the job for me? How many ANSI lumens should I be looking for given the audience size. Lighting is controlled for and it can be relatively dark in the room while the projection is on.

The quality overall need not be "stellar." I don't need any high def options or anything. So long as the general action is captured, projected and is generally visible I'm happy.

I'm open to any and all information and suggestions. I've been trying to solve this for a while now but all the local electronics stores are clueless, and I'm not willing to make a $500 purchase on only a "hunch" that it might work.

Thanks!

First Off, welcome to the booth! I'm certain you'll have all the answers you need in short order.

Secndly, I'm not a vidiot, but, I can tell you it's not about the number people in the room, it's;
What's your throw distance? < how far from the projector to the screen>
What's your screen size?
Front or rear projection?


$500 for a video projector? I spent $5000.00 on mine and it's a low end machine. A good projector for public use < lot's of use good clarity, variety of throws> is apt to run $20 - $30 k

[SHARYNF]

Originally Posted by balex

My questions are as follows:

1.) Is it possible to send a live feed directly from a MiniDV, firewire output camera to a projector? I've seen some conversion boxes, and even a cable from Sony that looks like it will convert firewire to standard composite video, but this not being my area, I'm not sure of it all... I'd like to eliminate the need for anything like a computer in between the camera and projector.

2.) What inputs - given the above - should I realistically be looking for on a projector?

3.) What projectors - and specifically what low-cost projectors - might be able to do the job for me? How many ANSI lumens should I be looking for given the audience size. Lighting is controlled for and it can be relatively dark in the room while the projection is on.

The quality overall need not be "stellar." I don't need any high def options or anything. So long as the general action is captured, projected and is generally visible I'm happy.

I'm open to any and all information and suggestions. I've been trying to solve this for a while now but all the local electronics stores are clueless, and I'm not willing to make a $500 purchase on only a "hunch" that it might work.

Thanks!

You have a number of options on the interface from the camcorder to the projector and a couple of things to watch out for:

As mentioned above there is typically a cable with a yellow red and white rca connection, the yellow is video, and you can run coax (rg6 is best) from the camera to the projector. I recommend rg6 since it has a better signal carrying ability over longer distances. You would then connect the cable to the video (probably yellow rca) on the projector

You could also typically use s video (there is probably a mini din s video connector on the camcorder, and you would then connect an svideo cable (keep it under 100 feet) to the projector again using the s video input.

Firewire cables typically are short but there are work arounds BUT the biggest problem those of us who have tried this route find is that the 4 pin firewire connector/1394 is extremely delicate and tyically will fail. If you did to go this way you would need to get a fire wire digital to analog converter, and depending on if you want to run the long cable with fire wire you would need to get special cables that are expensive... I don't recommend this way

Camcorders work pretty well in this situation, I personally find the now out dated tvc340 sony digital 8 works quite well because it has a 25x optical zoom. to use these camcorders in varying light levels you pretty much need to have them manned but it does work surprisingly well. Just don't put a tape in the camcorder and you will be fine.

some canon camcorders have a situation where on the analog out from the camcorder it will display all the operational information in the output UNLESS you use the remote to turn it off, and every time the camcorder is turned back on you need to reset this which makes for a pain.

The biggest factor in projector output level needed is screen size and quality and ambient light. Rear screen projection tends to be a bit brighter. I have uses up to a 12x12 projector screen rear with a Sharp 1700 LUMEN projector in a low ambient light room. Works pretty well, you are definitely on the margins with these.

You will notice that a computer image will be much brighter in the display than a video feed, this is to the the interleaving (half of the image at a time) in video EVEN Though the projector will typically convert it for display to progressive, so if you are testing what will work make sure you are feeding video and not the logo of the projector of a computer screen.

Dlp projectors tend now to be brighter, but have a bit of a delay in the image, but in most cases this is not a problem.

Keep in mind that inorder to be effective the portion of the image being displayed needs to be larger than the percieved size of the actual image... what I mean here is that close up shots are what is needed, if you just attempt to project the entire stage on a screen that is smaller than the stage, the effect is some what wasted as what the audience sees from the stage appears larger than the image on the screen.

Sharyn

[balex]

Excellent! So far so good! All the info is starting to add up and I'm feeling more confident about being able to do this.

TupeloTechieKid: You're absolutely right. I hadn't noticed it for a long time, as I haven't had any cause to use it (usually just firewire (iLink, technically I guess) out to the computer for editing purposes) but there is indeed an A/V out. It doesn't look at all like a mini TRS but I suspect that may be a result of it being a Sony, and Sony liking to do *everything* proprietary (if you do know the name of the connection, please do share!). I'm guessing that I have the A/V cables around somewhere, as it says that it came with them (now that I'm digging as a result of your info) and it break out from whatever the Sony A/V Out connection is to the three RCA plugs.

Van: Thanks for the welcome! The screen size may be slightly variable, but we're not talking about a 25' screen or anything so large (as much as I would love that)! I'm guessing that in most cases (the show travels) it won't be much more than 70" x 70". For a screen that size I'm guessing that, even considering the variable throw distances from manufacturer to manufacturer, we won't be talking about much more than 10' to 12' throw distance at max. Stage real estate is definitely at a premium in most cases, so we may even decrease overall size in the event that we need the room.

Projection would be front projection.

Yeah, I'd *love* an extra $20 - $30k for a nice setup. But, I have seen this done with consumer models in the lower ranges - not saying that it even *begins* to compare - but unfortunately, that's where I'm stuck right now. More in the "portable presentation projector" range.

SharynF: Sounds like firewire is off the table and out of the picture now that a.) we discovered that I'm not actually limited to that and b.) your warnings about failure are enough to scare anyone away from it!

I'll likely work with what you suggested - A/V Out -> RCA -> RG6 for the long haul, then into the projector.

Encouraging to hear that the old Sony works well. I'm really looking to use a camera that will give me moderate quality but also remain easily replaceable in the event that it breaks - the rigors of the road are many. If I can procure low to mid range consumer cams, then I can easily replace them on the go. I'm working with a DCR-HC28 right now. Again, the image doesn't have to be enormously impressive, just so long as it's visible.

I hear what you're saying about close-up images. That's what I'm intending to use it for. The camera will be focused on a small portion of the overall stage area, and sometimes zoomed in even more dramatically.

As to projectors - I've had this vague idea that what I'd be looking for is a 1700 to 2200 lumen unit. You're mention of 1700 again encourages me, but you're also talking rear projection, so I'd want to err on the side of 2000+ I'm guessing.

I'm intrigued about a computer image being brighter than a video feed. Would I benefit from plopping my laptop in between the camera and projector? And if so, what software would I be looking to use to pass it through?

The info so far is fantastic and I can't thank you all enough for offering up your pearls of wisdom. Here's hoping you can continue to guide this video newbie down the right (and economical) path.

[ishboo]

If you need to send the signal a long distance try getting an A/V out cord (you could get one on ebay for a few bucks) almost every camcorder has an out for those, and then get an RF Modulator which takes the AV signal and turns it into an RF (coaxial signal). Coaxial Cable is really cheap and can go long distances then just put another RF Modulator on the other end (an old vcr can also double as an RF Modulator. We did a setup like this for our talent show so the performers in the greenroom could see what was going on and it worked out great.

[waynehoskins]

I'm something of a vidiot as well as everything else, so here's my two cents:

The common term for what you're doing is "IMAG", a shortening of "image magnification"; at least that's the church production term for it.

You don't want to use Firewire or anything digital, because there is terrible frame delay in conversion. If you're shooting anything with fast movement, the delay is horrible. Half second sometimes.

You do want to use good coax (RG-59, RG-6, RG-11 even better) for composite video. If you can get component or RGBHV out of the camera, that's even better, but less likely.

Stay away from S-Video (Y/C), even though it's a better signal, because the crappy cables and connectors introduce more loss than you would have with a plain old composite signal down good coax.

You want at minimum a 2K projector, though realistically you want 3K or more. I have a pair of 2Ks at church that are bright enough, but just barely, and we're reasonably dark. If you have to compete with stage light or ambient light, you need more lumens.

If you're not going to have this camera shot on screen the entire time, you want a video switcher, to transition between sources (or in this case, a source and black).

You'll also need to do some research on lenses. My experience is that you want about one magnification factor per three feet of shot distance, so for a 75-foot-long shot you want a 25X (pronounced "twenty-five-by") zoom lens. There are two common 2/3-inch lens mounts, B3 Ikegami and B4 Sony. There's also half-inch B4. B3 Mount has the coupling ring on the lens box; B4 Mount has the coupling ring on the camera head.

You also want a decent fluid head and tripod. That alone should set you back your budget. Bogen/Manfrotto make some good somewhat-affordable ones. Hand controls too, you'll want hand controls (manual focus, servo zoom usually), and EVF: these collectively, with the camera plate, make a "studio kit" for an ENG camera.

Is the purpose of IMAG so that people far away in the audience can see the live action, or is it more for short-term effect? If it's the former, I'd think that you really want at least two cameras and a switcher. A one-camera shoot is the hardest thing to do, because your one shot has to be a good shot all the time, and the ways of getting from Important Shot A to Important Shot B are usually not all that good or easy.

[museav]

The projector brightness required will be based on the amount of ambient light hitting the screen, the size of the image and the desired result. The ambient light you may be able to control but that may also depend upon the room. The screen size will be dependent upon the viewing area and the type of media. For the same audience area you can typically get away with a smaller image for video than you can for most computer images but an image height (not diagonal) of 1/8 to 1/6 the distance to the furthest viewer might be typical. Note that the image size is dependent upon the distance to the viewers and not the number of viewers. The desired result is something only you can really define. I have seen many presentations with images that were less than ideal but were perfectly acceptable for the application. However, some people may have higher expectations. One thing to note is that projector brightness is not dependent on the throw distance (the distance from the projector to the screen) however it can be affected by the lens and using anything other than the standard lens may result in a lower brightness output.

The lens and functionalities such as lens shift, digital keystone correction, etc. may also be a consideration. Projectors with optional lenses, lens shift and a good range of keystone correction may cost a bit more but allow for much greater flexibility in projector placement.

You may also want to consider a multiple lamp projector. Some projectors use two or four lamps and these can be set to all be used at once for a brighter output or one at a time for redundancy. Being able to get a brighter image when necessary and having what is in effect an automatic lamp changeover if a lamp fails during an event can be very useful. If you do get single lamp projector then I would suggest carrying a spare lamp at all times.

[ruinexplorer]

Originally Posted by balex

I'm open to any and all information and suggestions. I've been trying to solve this for a while now but all the local electronics stores are clueless, and I'm not willing to make a $500 purchase on only a "hunch" that it might work.

Is $500 your total budget? You may want to look at used projectors to get something brighter, but stay away from eBay unless it's someone who gives a guarantee of it working.

I have found that live output from consumer miniDV camcorders is highly variable. First thing you need to do is experiment with the output directly to your TV on video input (using the yellow output on your camera that has been suggested). I have found that some camcorders will only output while recording, others won't do anything with a tape in them. You need to find out if your camcorder will go to sleep on you (as a power saving function).

I agree that if you have someone manning the camera, you should invest in a decent tripod.

You said that you will have control over the light that is competing with the projection, but remember that you need to keep your subject decently lit (and the camera will see your subject differently than the audience).

Is your screen going to be directly behind the presenter or off to the side? If it is off to the side, keep your camera center, if it is behind your presenter, then the camera should be off to the side a little way (aesthetics).

Pretty sure all consumer projectors will have a composite input, so you shouldn't have to worry there. You can buy 100' RCA cables from Monster Cables. If you can get an inexpensive scaler/switcher (as suggested) it will make your presentation look better (your input will be the same, but your output will likely be a 15 pin "VGA" cable). This will especially be good if you want to switch between the Imag and a presentation (PowerPoint or video).

Davin

Davin

[balex]

Originally Posted by ruinexplorer

Is $500 your total budget? You may want to look at used projectors to get something brighter, but stay away from eBay unless it's someone who gives a guarantee of it working.

No, that's not the entire budget, but I do want to keep it cheap, cheap, cheap! After continued work and research, I'm looking at a few (new) projectors in the 2500 to 3000 lumen range, leaning towards DLP (because 1.) i'll be projecting video and 2.) contrast is pretty important to me), and seem to be looking at mostly 1024x768 standard resolution. Seem to be finding - with some work - reputable companies (one a recommendation from a local a/v house) that are offering some deals in the $800 to $1000 range. Have to keep in mind that this needs to be very portable as well.

First thing you need to do is experiment with the output directly to your TV on video input

Was able to do that this evening and found that it looks great, but lighting may be an issue. Considering purchasing a small on-camera light for extra fill during the live segments - may even consider some good LED lights not designed for the purpose. Have read that color can be severely altered as a result of LED in video, but that it leans towards greens which, frankly, would fit well with what I'm doing... Save me apply a gel/filter.

I agree that if you have someone manning the camera, you should invest in a decent tripod.

It's all me. It will be tripod mounted though, stationary, with the stage section that it's covering taped off for my on-stage reference.

Is your screen going to be directly behind the presenter or off to the side? If it is off to the side, keep your camera center, if it is behind your presenter, then the camera should be off to the side a little way (aesthetics).

Unfortunately, due to the nature of the shifting venues, the screen positioning will change. I'm aiming to keep in upstage or left/up left (depends upon stage type). Camera will almost without fail be down right.

If you can get an inexpensive scaler/switcher (as suggested) it will make your presentation look better (your input will be the same, but your output will likely be a 15 pin "VGA" cable). This will especially be good if you want to switch between the Imag and a presentation (PowerPoint or video).

Was strongly considering this, until I found this little PowerPoint add-in: PFCPro

It allows live video from a video-in source. My only concern is delay, but I'll be testing that over the next week (as I mix ordering/delivering equipment with constant travel, shifting location, shows and very little time... )

This would allow me to present and switch to live feed where need be with only one remote, as well as give me a brighter image from the projector as the source will be the computer rather than the camera itself.

I originally didn't want to introduce a computer into the middle of it all, but it's become more and more appealing over time - assuming that it all works.

The good news is that I'm finally feeling that a direct feed from my camera directly to a projector is not a problem at all - so in the worst case, I can always fall back to the direct connection and/or a combination of a switch for both computer and camera operation.