CB: Technical Forum or English Class?

[nmccoart5]

Has Control Booth turned into an English lesson? Tell us what you think!

[LekoBoy]

I think spelling terms and pieces of equipment correctly is kinda important. When I see people write Leco I know they don't know very much.

[derekleffew]

A fair and valid point was raised by nmccoart5. Since I can't add a poll to his thread, I'm merging his comments into this one.

Whatever the results, this doesn't mean in anyway [sic] that I'm going to stop playing Grammar Cop.

[Van]

I think perhaps we sometimes jump on peoples heads about spelling /grammar issues a little too hard but at the same time we have had some doozy's < doozeys> posted on here. Personally I have my issues occasional when I type too fast or if I don't go back and check myself. I don't think there is a huge issues with that and I appreciate the occasional jab by Derek at my mangled English. At the same time, however, I can tell you that good communication skills are EXTREMELY important in this business. If you cannot cogently relay your ideas or translate mental images into verbal < written> ones, then you will have a difficult time advancing in your career. Not too long ago I sat on a board at a local Community College. We were saddle with reviewing core and area specific educational requirements in several Liberal Arts degree areas. I was the Hard Ass on the panel. I was the one requiring more Mathematics and English Skills in order to graduate with a Theatre degree, even one in "just tech". I am often truly alarmed at the gaping holes in some applicants education and at their inability to properly express themselves.
So, to sum up, We might occasionally jump on folks heads but it's for the better good. I'm a carp I'll build you a bridge and you can get over it.

[Charc]

I think part of what the ol' guys do when policing grammar/spelling is looking out for the younger ones. It's important to remember that what you write reflects who you are. You're not likely to get hired if you write "Proffisient in LiteWrite and Vectour-works".

Always double check any official documents you're sending out like resumés, cover letters, etc.. Feel free to have friends and family glance over them too, because a fresh set of eyes can really help.

However, it's important to get into the mindset of putting your best foot forward, and, as "all the world's a stage", why not start here?

[Footer]

no L33t speak, thats all I really care about.

[Serendipity]

You're not likely to get hired if you write "Proffisient in LiteWrite and Vectour-works".

Quoting me? Muahahaaaa...

I think we should continue having our grammar cops. It's important to teach people mild literacy. However, if it's someone's first post here, a simple reminder that we enjoy the use of the shift key and proper punctuation will suffice. I don't think we need to tackle the newbies and beat them too soon, though later...
Naturally, if it's a technical term, correct it. We're here to help each other out, not to establish a sense of elitist (although we may be!) technicians vs uneducated, untouchable "techies".

Oh, and nice vote in the Poll, Derek.

[cdub260]

Yes, correcting mistakes is a good thing. A few spelling or grammar errors here and there don't bother me too much, but I've seen a few posts which I found completely unreadable. I absolutely agree with the general sentiment that you need to be able to communicate your ideas if you want to get anywhere in this, or any other industry. As far as the forums on this sight go, those of us who have been in the industry for a while can't help you if don't clearly communicate your question. And on those occasions when we need your help, if your answer is so poorly written that we can't understand it, you are no help to us.

[derekleffew]

... on this sight go, those ...

Site.

Now see, right there--that's my predicament. Should I?; or shouldn't I?; call attention to the error? In no way trying to be more grammatical than thou... (thee?)

[Serendipity]

Now see, right there, is that's my predicament. Should I?; or shouldn't I?

Maybe we could add a little link below every post that says, "You illiterate!" and when opened lists corrections.

[avare]

If you can not communicate effectively with written posts that you can compose at your own pace, how do you expect to communicate effectively during the pressures of live performances?

Andre

[cdub260]

Site.

Now see, right there, is that's my predicament. Should I?; or shouldn't I?; call attention to the error? In no way trying to be more grammatical than thou... (thee?)

Please do. I want people to point out my mistakes so I don't repeat them.

[nmccoart5]

I agree with cdub260... correcting vital mistakes such as the name of a company or piece of equipment is 100% necessary.... but sometimes people seem to take it to far... ie: Someone replying "You should use a comma to set off phrases that express contrast." or something of that nature.... is a little rediculous.... mabye we should pay a little attention to the spell check button located at the top right of this box?????

[LightStud]

If you can not communicate effectively with written posts that you can compose at your own pace, how do you expect to communicate effectively during the pressures of live performances

I cannot recall a situation, ever, where I've had to use my writing skills to effectively communicate during a performance.
Now IF you're implying that it's better to say "John, go to the SL Fly Gallery and raise Lineset 27 two feet" than "Hey you, go up there and gimme another coupla feet on that one," with that I wholeheartedly agree.

I agree with cdub260... correcting vital mistakes such as the name of a company or piece of equipment is 100% necessary.... but sometimes people seem to take it to far... ie: Someone replying "You should use a comma to set off phrases that express contrast." or something of that nature.... is a little ridiculous.... maybe we should pay a little attention to the spell check button located at the top right of this box?????

I'm pretty sure I have no magic button "at the top right of this box." I use Firefox, which underlines in red words it suspects are mispelled, as I type them. I suspect most other browsers have this feature as well, and if not, why not?

[Les]

I think it is a good idea for us to use proper English because it then becomes more natural to us. Honestly, for those of you who have ever used AIM or Yahoo! Messenger, how many times have you forgotten to capitalize "I" when referring yourself? I have on many occasions because I was used to getting sentences and thoughts out as quickly as possible while ignoring things like periods, commas, apostrophes, and capitalizations. Neglecting these fundamentals out of habit can easily spell disaster. I have emailed out several business inquiries where I have had to go back and capitalize i's and add apostrophes. It reminds me of this quote:

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle-

When we get used to typing and communicating correctly, it becomes second nature to us. It's a lesson that translates to so many areas of life.

For example: Wearing a seatbelt, using your blinker, using safety cables, saying "please" and "thank you", speaking correctly...

A little more on speaking correctly...

I'm from Texas. We're stereotyped as having a thick southern accent and using terms such as "y'all" and "fixin' to", but I can't tell you how many times I have been asked where I was from. People think I'm from the north (even people from the north!) because of the way I pronounce my words. I think it is because of sitting through so many notes sessions after rehearsals. Listening to directors stress pronunciations like "get, not git" or "many, not miny" has truly helped me become better at expressing myself - and separating myself from that redneck stereotype!

[Chris15]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe we have an uncited offence in the very topic of this thread... Are we or are we not discussing a Tech Forum rather than something I should be submitting to the tax department? And to boot, in it's current state, the thread title does not even make sense... (Figured out my opinion on the matter yet?)

[Hughesie]

The reason we seem so strick around here is because when someone comes along and finds your user profile (trust me it happens) and sees what language your using, that job interview you were going to have might just get filled before you get there. Future employeers are starting to look at social networking sites such as facebook to see what nutjob they are about to hire.

all of this is contained in our helpful guide to spelling on controlbooth

Spelling and Grammar on Controlbooth.com

[Hughesie]

the thread title does not even make sense... (Figured out my opinion on the matter yet?)

CB: Tech. Form or English Class

It's two sentences and also a poor lexical clause.

[Sean]

The reason we seem so strick around here is because when someone comes along and finds your user profile (trust me it happens) and sees what language your using, that job interview you were going to have might just get filled before you get there. Future employeers are starting to look at social networking sites such as facebook to see what nutjob they are about to hire.

Um, ok....

STRICT

YOU'RE

EMPLOYERS



--Sean

[derekleffew]

The reason we seem so strick around here is because when someone comes along and finds your user profile (trust me it happens) and sees what language your using, that job interview you were going to have might just get filled before you get there. Future employeers are starting to look at social networking sites such as facebook to see what nutjob they are about to hire.

all of this is contained in our helpful guide to spelling on controlbooth.

Spelling and Grammar on Controlbooth.com

Sean has cited the mispellings. The first sentence above falls into the category of run-on. Regarding the second: proper names are capitalized. Third: sentences begin with a capital letter, proper names are capitalized, and end with a period. Or, in this case, as the independent clause serves to introduce the link, a colon: http://www.creativeteachingsite.com/humorgrammar.htm.

While I'm almost willing to suspect that your intentions are honorable, Hughesie, it's quite tiresome to continually edit and correct your entries in the Wiki, where grammatical errors serve to destroy the creditability of the article.

Also, I suggest that one refrain from using the royal pronoun "we" in future writings, unless one possesses a mouse in his/her pocket.

[JD]

We must also remember that not all of our members are from the US. To some, English may even be a second language. (For me, typing is!) In any case, content is far more important. We risk insulting or alienating member by over correction. In a field that uses so many specialized names, content can sometimes be damaged by poor grammar or spelling. In those cases, it is worth pointing out.

[lieperjp]

Is it absolutely necessary? No. Does it make you as a writer look and sound smarter? Yes. A misspelled word or two, or even a mis-placed comma or two isn't the end of the world. Some people don't even realize they aren't properly typing. To answer a question (or ask one, for that matter) doesn't require picture perfect grammar and spelling. Yes, there are tools to help you - download Firefox with its built in spell checker. But blatantly obvious misspellings and grammar mistakes should be corrected in the kindest possible way.


P.S. What is the current status quo on this topic? I would say the current status quo is "Mildly Strict."

[Hughesie]

unless one possesses a mouse in his/her pocket.

His Name is Richard

[JD]

Of course computers are even fussier as seen in the syntax error above


EDIT:
Here is a timely Time article that just hit today about changing the rules of spelling !

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...832104,00.html

[ship]

spell checker is a good concept (note me not capatilizing the first word in the sentence.) On the other hand has to be a bit of give and sway in being cop verses letting it go, I don't see a problem with balance and certainly not much calling others when they call a lamp a bulb though its like grinding the teeth for me when I hear it somehow.

Respecting foreign language of course - including that of UK verses US for both of us, still all well and good to communicate but part of that is being understood and I at least would hope that help is taken in the best sense rather than in the critical sense.

Main concept I would suspect is ability to understand the thoughts of those posting, product name recognition and if nothing else education also a partial role. Fourty years old and I still can't spell restraunt or maintinence properly. One would hope others possibly with nudging can learn better. This much less my run-ons and base writing skill.

Just as I would hope others excell beyond where I got, I would hope others excell in all ways and thank especially derekleffew at times watching over all of us as with others.

[RichMoore]

I, for one, am a lover of the English language and have attempted, through the years, to speak and write it correctly. With English being the internationally recognized language of all things technical, I think that it behooves us all to be able to communicate well and precisely, particularly when we are trying to describe a problem with which we are trying to deal and asking for assistance in the diagnosis and solving of said problem.

That being said, I realize that many of the people with whom I deal on a daily basis, college students primarily, have difficulty understanding what I am trying to convey to them. Often times, I must repeat myself to one of my student techs who has a vacant and uncomprehending expression, while slowly nodding their head as though they truly understand what it is that I am telling them. When I see that expression, I know that I must then restate myself in much simpler terms.

While I am sure that to some I sound quite like a pompous a**, who has an affectation and affection for the overt usage of nonessential and excessive verbiage, I delight in the knowledge that I can communicate with others on a level that goes beyond....."what up dog?".

Just having a giggle,

Rich

[Dally]

I am terrible at typing, and often don't go back to make sure I put the letters in the correct order. I know I should correct it and thus do not mind people reminding me because it is a bad habit. However,

Now see, right there, is that's my predicament.

Sentences like the above REALLY bug me. I'll sit there going over and over it in my head to try to make sense of it or figure out why it seems wrong. In the above sentence it couldv'e went "right there, is the thing...." or right there, that's my prediciment"

I voted to be relaxed about grammar, but only because I feel like it is a slipperly slope. Once I start to correct on big things, I also want to point out those smaller mistakes as well. Of course, the slope does go both ways, but people tend to dislike you less when you don't correct their grammar.

[lieperjp]

I am terrible at typing, and often don't go back to make sure I put the letters in the correct order. I know I should correct it and thus do not mind people reminding me because it is a bad habit. However,

Now see, right there, is that's my predicament.

Sentences like the above REALLY bug me. I'll sit there going over and over it in my head to try to make sense of it or figure out why it seems wrong. In the above sentence it could've went "right there, is the thing...." or right there, that's my predicament"

I don't blame you. Technically,

Now see, right there, is that's my predicament.

Isn't correct, because to fully extrapolate it would be:

Now see, right there, is that is my predicament.

There's an extra "is" in that sentence. That's probably why it didn't make sense. We don't know - is he asking "Is that my predicament?" or is he saying, "That is my predicament." Judging from the original post, I would have to say the latter.
Sorry, Derek

[derekleffew]

...Now see, right there, is that's my predicament. ...

De nada, lieperjp. Just like everyone else, occasionally my fingers want to type "is the thing" while my brain decides "that's my predicament" would be better. I don't proofread every one of my posts, and I'm not saying everyone must, either. All of us get tripped up by homonyms occasionally. In the case of post#8, an otherwise grammatically flawless post, it appeared to me as an error of ignorance rather than laziness, and to me, detracted from the message. Thus I decided the OP would appreciate a correction, as it makes him appear less learned than he most likely is. Another of our members constantly confuses "then" and "than". I corrected him once; he said he just couldn’t tell the difference, so I dropped it. I won't be hiring him to do any writing for me, and he's fine with that, as he doesn't care to be a writer anyhow.

I'm willing to over look most grammatical, and even spelling, errors, except the theater-specific terms included in this list: Spelling of theatrical brands/products/terms, which is constantly being updated. For a person who loves theatre to not take the time to learn to spell related terms and specifically names is unacceptable and inexcusable, in my opinion.

[lieperjp]

De nada, lieperjp. Just like everyone else, occasionally my fingers want to type "is the thing" while my brain decides "that's my predicament" would be better. I don't proofread every one of my posts, and I'm not saying everyone must, either. All of us get tripped up by homonyms occasionally. In the case of post#8, an otherwise grammatically flawless post, it appeared to me as an error of ignorance rather than laziness, and to me, detracted from the message. Thus I decided the OP would appreciate a correction, as it makes him appear less learned than he most likely is. Another of our members constantly confuses "then" and "than". I corrected him once; he said he just couldn’t tell the difference, so I dropped it. I won't be hiring him to do any writing for me, and he's fine with that, as he doesn't care to be a writer anyhow.

I'm willing to over look most grammatical, and even spelling, errors, except the theater-specific terms included in this list: Spelling of theatrical brands/products/terms, which is constantly being updated. For a person who loves theatre to not take the time to learn to spell related terms and specifically names is unacceptable and inexcusable, in my opinion.

Well said, Derek, Well said.

[ship]

Often times, I must repeat myself to one of my student techs who has a vacant and uncomprehending expression, while slowly nodding their head as though they truly understand what it is that I am telling them. When I see that expression, I know that I must then restate myself in much simpler terms.

While I am sure that to some I sound quite like a pompous a**, who has an affectation and affection for the overt usage of nonessential and excessive verbiage, I delight in the knowledge that I can communicate with others on a level that goes beyond....."what up dog?".
Rich

Much less I'm also glad "Dude" has been replaced somehow - pull up your pants already...

Repeat oneself in saying again even in email form of already having advised - this beyond having trained and it forgotton because it's not yet immediate enough to get yet. Loved when at times my school TD with a glass door would walk about the shop than go back and slam the door with such force it got both broken glass and a message across. Limited times I have been able to do that also has had the same effect.

Earlier today I stood holding up a spray paint holding cabinet one of my assistants had gotten ready to mount to a rack post. Told him specifically how to mount it in him already having admitted in the past he doesn't even if Union carpenter, knew much about engineering. Didn't follow the directions so instead of removing one problematic thru-bolt in re-drilling after the other three were in that did align, I stood there, removed it for adjustmant than stood there again in wasting my time while he tried to make it fit. This with carriage bolts and nylock nuts. That at least he did listen to in me further holding the cabinet out of replacing and recognizing the concept of them not getting along. Slow learning process in general constant I find often at best in not being able to pass on what directions I might because those given direction are not ready to fully understand what concept passed on in following them.

Still, not pompous that I could see in even me at times correcting my Mom in say proper English than feeling like an idiot when such a concept like "please" gets an awkaward moment in me having let such a normal thing for me to let slip out. Mom even said a sware word this past weekend... Amazed and I made the mistake of calling her on it. Not that at times I don't also for effect.

Still that balance of education for that sense verses offending is on both parts I would hope understood by all parties so as not to take offense personally, just note by both also. At times stepped over the line and at times needed advise to learn with.

Believe it's rule #10, something about understanding what the TD said in the TD never being wrong. Has real refrence in general including language skills.

[Radiant]

My paying job, in part, is to transcribe television programs and create closed captions for the hearing impaired. I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to grammar, and especially homonyms, though less so punctuation. I've had occasion to train a handful of people to transcribe, and it usually leaves me pulling my hair out. I'll often speak the following sentence pair and ask the trainee to type what I say: "Are you looking for Bob and Angie? They're over there on their couch." No one ever gets it the first time...

What occurs on ControlBooth often irks me. In correcting a poster's various errors, they are glaringly pointed out. The mistakes are sometimes corrected in the original post, highlighted in a different color. Or they may be quoted in reply, and the poster taken to task. The poster, in a way, is demeaned for his imperfections.

If the moderators' goal is to make each post readable, correct in spelling, and sensible, why not simply edit the offending post for errors without pointing them out? The "last edited by" tag at the bottom of the post could contain a note that it was edited for spelling and grammar.

Tip for the day: When proofreading, read from right to left, end to beginning. When reading in the traditional English method, the mind has a tendency to ignore errors, choosing to see what it expects to see.

[ship]

If the moderators' goal is to make each post readable, correct in spelling, and sensible, why not simply edit the offending post for errors without pointing them out? The "last edited by" tag at the bottom of the post could contain a note that it was edited for spelling and grammar.

PM's are often slow to help if at all in taking a concept off line and not public, the goal as it were is to help not to grammer cop.

Editing a post could be really bad. Could have been intended to be that way and that could be important, much less who learns what from an edit other than it suddenly changed and that change didn't stream from the thoughts of the poster? I could be offended by an edit except often edits to my posts often catch stuff I didn't see and always welcome that help. Not all might feel that way. Editing a post in my opinion would be really bad. Intent is to help at times both technically and if possibly professionally in ways such as in spelling at times if of help at times. What's said is also in part a specific feeling out of the person writing it. Editing it would limit the ability to understand persay at times the level the person writing is at in rating what advice to give to the person. Not always but at times ability to write proper - or something approaching that is important in feeling out the writer.

Their efforts to re-post a corrected statement is their choice be it in an edit or re-posting of the statement after the correction. Such corrections being viewed as personal or a help for all also very weighted.

Now can anyone help me to spell restraunt without me having to switch to diner all the time?

Me in knowing better don't but I can't seem to on that or the proper maintinence. For me mental block in being able to find or remember.

[derekleffew]

Ship--it's probably a Chicago thing; you grew up in Cicero, didn't you? If you pronounce it "restraunt" (only two syllables), you'll always spell it incorrectly.

Memorize this photo, and recall it every time you write the word. Or go to the corner of W. Adams and State St. (Best German food outside Germany!)

[RichMoore]

Ship,

You could do what I do and just use the word 'cafe', since I can only spell restaurant when I use the spell checker. [media]http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/media]

[ship]

Ship--it's probably a Chicago thing; you grew up in Cicero, didn't you? If you pronounce it "restraunt" (only two syllables), you'll always spell it incorrectly.

Memorize this photo, and recall it every time you write the word. Or go to the corner of W. Adams and State St. (Best German food outside Germany!)

Thanks, I'll print up a picture. Families from the south side, I was raised in the burbs... Worked many of the Burgoff October Fests' on the other hand - good beer... More a question for me when given the choice in studying spelling somehow that I never got, or watch TV, I normally chose the latter. For me figuring out how to spell as a concept in being a slow learner in being given spelling words and learning them in time for a test and not having a problem with writing 50x times each mis-spelled word on a test afterwards... I took the latter in still not learning how to spell them no matter how many times I re-wrote them. Only typing lamp notes later in the years for the most part has helped me learn to spell better, but not much in some words I have had to learn since the primary learning days.

Fact of being, I'm a slow learner... was hard for me to get out of boot camp and artillery school etc. But once I learned something, was ready to learn it and needed to know it, it than became photographic memory for me. Just took a bit of extra time at times or needed an immediancy for me.

We all learn differently.

Point being sometimes if posting on line for some the nudge by others will help, for others one hopes they would not feel embarrissed or pressured overly, for some it won't help because they are not ready to learn yet. Still back to the concept, for all we have different ways of learning stuff. Nobody stupid, just different and different tacts to take on them.

Still thinking that gentle corrections at times if overt but simple or unclear otherwise to read and understand and PM's if less so able to help them without that understanding of it being help would be good.

Just as I just printed the Burgoff sign to stick to my computer, sometimes it does help that help and I admit I am not great in many areas. Once that's with all and realized no offense is meant none should be taken.

My opinion at least.

[derekleffew]

Just as I just printed the Burgoff sign to stick to my computer, ...

A quick glance at the photo would show you it's The Berghoff Restaurant! (...in keeping with my new policy of only correcting proper nouns.)

[Serendipity]

A quick glance at the photo would show you it's The Berghoff Restaurant! (...in keeping with my new policy of only correcting proper nouns.)

I'm very proud of your learned restraint to proper nouns. Maybe after a week of this, if you're still successful, we can make you a trophy.

Am I allowed to correct people in their spelling of common nouns? I had difficulty choosing, but at the person joined today, I decided to let it go...

[MNicolai]

By the way, if anyone wants to understand why grammar is important; listen to Steven Pinker! He actually has a really cool book called The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window into Human Nature. I strongly recommend anyone with 75 minutes to spare check this out; it's a long summary of that book. He's especially detailed in the psychology of the English language. It takes a really intelligent person to be able to understand why the strangest aspects of English, are the way they are.

[media]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8927719183110106939&ei=viauSKyRB4fy4AL-z5Qi&q=language+as+a+window+steven+pinker&vt=lf&hl =en[/media]

[philhaney]

I'm very proud of your learned restraint to proper nouns. Maybe after a week of this, if you're still successful, we can make you a trophy.

Am I allowed to correct people in their spelling of common nouns? I had difficulty choosing, but as the person joined today, I decided to let it go...

Don't see why not..... Just be polite.

Who knows? In time you may just get your own trophy.