Name that (Big!) Connector: G4100/stage plug

[Footer]

I am cleaning out the basement of my theatre and stripping copper of the 2 generation of old dimmer racks I have down there. I have two of these connectors on some old 6k dimmers. What are they? Who made them? What where they rated for? Can you still use this connector today? Bonus points if you can get a hold of a spec sheet for the connector.

As always, if you consider yourself a professional in any way or are old enough to remember using this connector, please refrain from posting for a week or until the question is answered!






And this is the other connector, this time with a GamCheck for scale...

[HillJonathan]

Do you have any pictures of the inside? Crazy connector.

[dramatech]

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that is the connector, that mounts to the back of a dimmer module. When the dimmer module is pushed in to a slot in the rack, or housing, It connects neutral, two phases of power for two dimmers such as SCRs and then returns the dimmed circuits to the rack or housing to go to the loads.
I base this guess, on the fact that it strikes a very close resemblence to the connector on the back of an EDI MKVII dimmer module.

[derekleffew]

I'm more interested in that thing in the corner. What the heck is that!? Medieval torture device?

[philhaney]

OK, "Name that (Big!) Connector."

I'm gonna go with "Fred."

[cdub260]

As for "Name that (Big!) Connector" I'm gonna go with "Fred."

No Phil, it has to be Ethel.

[philhaney]

No Phil, it has to be Ethel.

Last time I checked, Ethel was a girls name. Both of these connectors are boys.....

[MPowers]

The strange thing in the corner is indeed the top of a stage brace. A stage brace was a wooden (Oak) or metal (aluminum) "pole" with an adjustable length due to sliding (wood) or telescoping (aluminum) and tightened down with a medium sized thumb screw. The upper hook twisted into the hole of a brace cleat (see previous post) making a very secure, rapid, attachment to the back a standard type of flat as much as 12' above the ground without tools or a ladder. The lower end of the brace was attached to the floor with a stage screw directly into the floor or an improved stage screw with a metal threaded plug into the floor or simply weighted with a flor late and sand bag. With standard construction, usually soft covered, this was an extreamly fast and secure way to fasten and asemble a large set. Often teamed with lashing hardware and lash lines. Lashing allowed a single stagehand to fasten two 16' tall flats together alont the entire height in less than 10 seconds, no tools, by himself (a second stage hand had to bring the second flat but did not have to help with the fastening.)! The method is still used where a set is used ofte such as a small quior shell or a news broadcast show etc and uses the aluminum braces with permenant threaded inserts in to the floor for the bottom attachment.

Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment, Des Moines, Central Lighting & Equipment

[derekleffew]

I should have made part two its own Question of the Day. In addition to MPowers, coldnorth57 and philhaney also supplied correct answers.

I'm sure Footer has other QotD material in that room!

Sorry for the hijack everyone.
Back to topic: I bet I know at least two, not very old, theatres in Chicago that have that connector (or similar) still in use.

[jonliles]

Hard to tell from the photo, but it appears that maybe is there an interlock on it? So, 2 hots, 2 commons and a ground...

[MarshallPope]

I should have made part two its own Question of the Day.

Well crap. That's one I could have gotten correct.

[Footer]

Just to kill this rat hole that Derek caused once and for all...

Both the stage brace and stage screw were relics from college. The eye bolt next to it was a hand forged I bolt that was attached to the smoke pocket in my current theatre.

The stage brace was something I got when I was in college and we were cleaning out the "old gym". The "old gym" was built in 1906, had a raked running track around the perimter, and was used as the theatre dept. scene shop for 20 when I got to that school. There was all kinds of fun stuff stuffed tucked into all the corners, including an old coffin.

The red thing is a stage screw. One version on the screw was patented in the town my college was in. We kind of had it as our mascot and everyone in my class had one. Our saying was "Decatur, IL, Screwing the Stage since 1914".

I have this patent hanging on my wall....

STAGE-SCREW - Google Patent Search

[Wolf]

We still use these connectors! Its what we use to power our CAMlocks for our 12-channel old CD-80 dimmer packs in our black box. I know they are at least rated for 28.8K. The name is escaping me at the moment though.

[chris325]

...including an old coffin.

Occupied...? :shock:

[otherwho]

500 V 10-20A 3 phase with earth most likely Ip11

10A, 20A, 32A, 40A, 50A and 60A and 5 pins for equipment and distribution boards that require neutral and earth. one pin for each of the phases
Protected Accessories to IP66 in page 4

http://www.clipsal.com.au/trade/__da...1/W0000791.pdf
has it some in info on it.

it i think a Australia type from a fast WWW search

that is my guess.

[Footer]

500 V 10-20A 3 phase with earth most likely Ip11

10A, 20A, 32A, 40A, 50A and 60A and 5 pins for equipment and distribution boards that require neutral and earth. one pin for each of the phases
Protected Accessories to IP66 in page 4

http://www.clipsal.com.au/trade/__da...1/W0000791.pdf
has it some in info on it.

it i think a Australia type from a fast WWW search

that is my guess.

Your getting at least in the ball park.

It is made in the US and specifically for theatrical use. It is UL listed.

[otherwho]

http://www.gtaust.com/downloads/Powe...ochure_web.pdf


50 amp wilco connection?



Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems: 2008 Full Line Catalog part E
hubbell pin and sleeve 4 wire with pivot?

[Footer]

http://www.gtaust.com/downloads/Powe...ochure_web.pdf


50amp wilco connection?



Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems: 2008 Full Line Catalog part E
hubbell pin and sleeve 4 wire with pivot?

The powerwise connector is getting closer, however this connector is square. Also, this is a theatrical connector. I would suggest looking at companies that specifically manufacture theatrical connectors.

[mstaylor]

Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.

[Kelite]

Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.

Not old Michael, experienced beyond your years!

[Chris15]

Let me confirm it is NOT a Wilco / Australian Pattern connector. The centre pin in this instance is larger than the outers, this is not the case on our 3 phase...

[mjw56]

Would it be 3 phase power with ground and the large center pin being an over-sized neutral?

[rsmentele]

Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.

I would have to say no also... I had 2 college prof's that insisted we all learn 'ancient' theatre methods in tech classes. And that along with flat lashing was on the list...!

[philhaney]

Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.

No, it doesn't make me old because you know what that odd thing in the corner is at all...

[derekleffew]

Posted at Footer's request...

While I don't have a manufacturer's cut sheet (left behind in a cross-country move), I was able to find and scan two print ads.


(Cut sheet on top of the pile in the photo.)



These were used to power the portable dimmer packs (CD80 and D192) at the Royal-George and Briar Street theatres in Chicago, and likely still are.

Perhaps someone can tell us when and why the connector became extinct?

[Arez]

Perhaps someone can tell us when and why the connector became extinct?

Would it have something to do with the materials used in the connector?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[STEVETERRY]

Would it have something to do with the materials used in the connector?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, no. The materials were fairly conventional phenolic, cast aluminum, and brass.

This connector was introduced during a time when it was not clear that the NEC would allow single-pole separable connectors without sequential interlock. Pin-and-sleeve 5-pole 100A connectors available were huge and expensive, for good reason.

The G4100 was an attempt to shrink the size and cost of a 5P 100A connector. It failed miserably because:

A. You could barely get the requisite 100A conductors terminated.
B. It was almost impossible to mate due to the ridiculously high insertion force of 5 split pins.

Then came the icing on the cake: a series of violent connector explosions where insulation failed in the phenolic block or the silly fiber shroud that protected the metal backshell from coming into contact with the pins or conductors. One of the weaknesses of the pin retention into the block was that it used metal roll pins. The holes drilled in the block for these, and the lack of precision in setting the pins proved to be a problem. As I recall, there were some injuries.

That was it: connector discontinued.

But think about it: a 5-pole 100A connector for use in the theatre? I think not! When you do the calculations on the ampacity of a 5-conductor SO cord with 4 current-carrying conductors, you end up with a piece of cable that a)was not made and b)would never fit in the connector, and c) was a guaranteed hernia.

Therefore, the industry quickly concluded that at the three-phase 100A level, single-conductor cables and connectors were a requirement.

ST

[ship]

Hmm, fascinating on the plug. Never seen one before. Interesting they would think this was good for 100A given the pin size and that a neutral back than would be larger, I thought oversized or double neutrals were more a modern concept.

Funny also it wasn't big enough to fit the cable it was meant to fit, I might think it 30A in comparison to the Gam Check, perhaps 60A if pushing it which might have fit the multi-cable. Perhaps was desgned for one thing and used for another? What's stamped on the plug for amperage rating?

Stage brace, got one from 1926 and I still frequently use it. Also have boxes full of parts to them and the old style stage screw, the newer style with the insert and various other parts. Granted these days I don't use it for supporting scenery - though I did grow up with that practice which was the norm for soft and even some hard flats on flat I was using. A weighted brace jack would only support X amount of scenery in height, after that you really did need a stage brace. Even at one point learned to use them in screwing to say a 12"x18" double plywood block that had a rubber bottom. Load the block up with stage weights as you would with a brace jck so as not to destroy the floor and it was still a viable option when I was doing scenery. Haven't lash lined scenery since the mid-80's but grew up with that also. Still viable for quick box set scenery changes asuming enough manpower or castered tip jacks for the scenery. Granted with these weighted brace techniques you kind of needed either a lot of people to carry the weights off stage or a few carts ready to ge loaded. I tended to use such brace jacks instead of foot irons also - such plates were another purpose of the stage screw.

Quick and quiet scene changes. Other ways to do it these days - most of them are more expensive or would take longer and be more noisy. (I'll post that question in the scenery section.)

Over the years at least for me, pulling gel without having to fly in the lighting was a really good use for a stage brace. The old theater I worked at had entire racks of them so I could pick my brace for the distance I needed it to travel. I only have one now - traded some scrap steel for it the theater needed. These days I use it for pulling tape off my 14' high tape wall (rolls of tape on 18" pipe lengths mounted to a board and filled with every type of tape available.) A bannister with perpendicular mounted and ground down bracket for it works a little better for this purpose but the stage brace is still useful in the shop.

Mainly today I use it to either lift up cable sag for my deprtment's wire rope hoist we use to hang prototype lights with - hook the extra cable once the light is hoisted up and cable tie the stage brace to a shelf near by. Works perfect for this. Other purpose is to as with the above grab stuff say on a flown truss without having to fly back in the truss - or adjust fixtures. It's around 20' extension length with hooks comes in really handy.

[derekleffew]

... Over the years at least for me, pulling gel without having to fly in the lighting was a really good use for a stage brace. ...

Aye, 'twas a valued man he that could remove, and insert, a gelframe using a stage brace.
Scrollers? We doan need no steenkin scrollers!

[Studio]

My high school still uses stage braces all the time. They were the main support for our recent play, and are used all time for our childrens theater shows.

[Footer]

Well, I decided to break one open tonight. It took a hammer to get the cable out of the back, but it came out (and went back together again). Here are some "tear down" photos.

[ship]

Nice! Fascinating. What size cable was feeding these 100A plugs? I know I have some 4/5 SO cable about and it's huge. So it's center ground, that is also interesting but sensible. Is that center ground pin point of first contact also? Can I play in your shop for the day? Seems like fun work this cleaning.

Especially love the Scooby Doo mystery hunt quick results.

[Footer]

Is that center ground pin point of first contact also?

Nope. All pins are flush with each other. That was my 1st sign that this is not at all a modern connector. It balances perfectly when sat on a table on its pins. The feeder cable for it was #2. It was feeding a 6pack of 6k's. In order to get the connectors off I used a sawzall.

[derekleffew]

... that this is not at all a modern connector. ...

Something only 23 years old not modern? P'shaw!

[Footer]

Something only 23 years old not modern? P'shaw!

As modern as this (which I have one of these stuffed in a storage unit)...
Compaq III Portable computer


Or this... (if it did not catch on fire that is)

[STEVETERRY]

Nope. All pins are flush with each other. That was my 1st sign that this is not at all a modern connector. It balances perfectly when sat on a table on its pins. The feeder cable for it was #2. It was feeding a 6pack of 6k's. In order to get the connectors off I used a sawzall.

They probably used a similar tool to install the cable. I assembled a few of these, and it was not fun!

Note the .125" holes in the phenolic block. These were the scene of the crime in the flash/bang connector explosions.

Also note the ridiculous fiber shroud to insulate the metal backshell.


These pix remind me that this is one of the worst connectors ever conceived.

ST



ST

[derekleffew]

... These pix remind me that this is one of the worst connectors ever conceived. ...

Bold statement, seeing as how this connector

was sold and used for at least 70 years. I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!

Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?

[Footer]

Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?

Not from the looks of things...
RUFR.E11417 - Receptacles, Stage Type

[dvsDave]

Bold statement, seeing as how this connector

was sold and used for at least 70 years. I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!

Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?

That looks vaguely familiar... Was that the connector that Doc Brown used in Back to the Future when he hooked up the cable to the lightning rod above city hall?

[STEVETERRY]

Bold statement, seeing as how this connector

was sold and used for at least 70 years. I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!

Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?

And that was a reliable connector, too! No internal arcing or termination difficulties here! Any problems, you could see them!


ST