Nicropress crimp size?

[Beans45601]

I am looking for information on the correct diameter of crimps using a Nicropress tool, specifically for 1/4" copper sleeves. I realize that they make go-no go gauges for this exact purpose, however I don't have one around for 1/4 sleeves, but I do have a pair of calipers. I have looked everywhere and can only find information that says "use this go-gauge", but nothing telling me the raw numbers. Any idea where I could find such information?

[What Rigger?]

Hey Beans!

If ya don't have the no-go gauge, then the best thing to do is don't make those compressions. Calipers don't count, because they are even more prone to error than the gauge. Why? Calipers move. (For those that don't know, yes- I have seen a no-go gauge used incorrectly also. A lot.) So I'd say get that gauge before you proceed, otherwise, you're just ballparking it, and that's liability you don't want or need.

Nicopress® | The National Telephone Supply Co. | wire rope splice

[gafftapegreenia]

Are you crimping Nicopress sleeves with a Nicopress tool? Nicopress will tell you that you should only be using their sleeves with their crimps, as they make their sleeves to match their tools. You should really have an entire system of crimper, sleeves and go/no go gauge all from the same company.

I *know* people will use Nicopress tools with Locolock sleeves and vice versa (Or Campbell, or HK Porter), but this is rigging, and rigging is the area I never fudge with.

Props on using copper sleeves tho.

[derekleffew]

Beans45601, you're not going to find this information published, specifically for the exact reasons stated above.
-----

...I *know* people will use Nicopress tools with Locolock sleeves and vice versa (Or Campbell, or HK Porter), but this is rigging, and rigging is the area I never fudge with. ...

As mentioned here:

...I also noticed that in most cases the retailer sold the same sleeves as tools, however, BMI sells Loos & Co. tools but Nico (by name at least) sleeves. Is this just an oddity? I was taught to use the sleeves that go with the tool. While the tests of Mr. Hall reveal that, "Based on my test results, I would have to say that it makes little difference the manufacturer of the sleeves or the tool; all samples in my tests held a tensile load greater than the rated min. BS of the cable. (2,000 lbs.) before failing" (Swaging Comparison). Any comments or explanations on this are welcome as well.

It does beg the conundrum: If sleeves and swage tool are of different manufacturers, whose Go/No-Go gauge should one use? For this reason, I'd stick to one manufacturer.

The takeaway:
Get yourself the proper gauge,
Before you make another swage.

Pearls of wisdom before swine, or something to that effect.

[Beans45601]

Ah, well maybe a little back story would help. In the theater that I work in, the rigging system is in shambles (you know, 1/4" nicropress sleeves with only 2 crimps, dog clips used on the trim chain for EVERY batten, rusted and worn away aircraft cable, trim chain that would horrify every one of you, etc). Our TD is not worried about safety and so I am bypassing him and giving a list of photos and descriptions to the building manager of what I can that is wrong. I know, this is less than ideal, but it is either this or wait for something to fail. I am by no means a certified rigger, but their are several things I can look at and say "This is wrong, here is the text to back that up". I'll get a go-gauge thrown into my next BMI order for this size cable, but until then I wanted to be able to get a ballpark estimate. In reality, of course it does not matter because that whole termination and trim chain needs to be cut off and done properly, but I was curious.

[tprewitt]

National Telephone WILL tell you what the crimp should be, you just have to call and ask to speak to engineering. 1-877-868-6080. Loraine, who frequently answers the phone, will happily email you a dimensioned drawing if you tell her the tool and the sleeve you are using. What you are describing is an F6 oval. (1/4" wire rope oval, NiCo - commonly called "copper") The thing to remember is NOT EVERY TOOL USES THE SAME GAUGE even for the same copper F6 oval! For instance, the two drawings below are for the Model #3 hand tool, and the Model #635 hydraulic bench tool.

Sometimes you can look at the crimp and tell what tool was used. For instance the Loco-Lok hand tool has a really narrow jaw, which is why 4 crimps are required. The #3 hand tool is heavy and hard to operate so sometimes you can tell it was used rather than the 610 because the crimps are not as even. Both tools have a wider jaw than the Loco-Lok, which is easy to identify. Model #63 & #64 tools have multiple die slots so if you see a sleeve where one crimp is the wrong size, you know they had one of these tools onsite. National Telephone also makes a hand tool, that uses essentially a cordless drill body, for Ver-Sales & JR Clancy that has a really wide jaw and only 2 crimps are required. The #635 uses a die set that crimps the entire length of the sleeve..... It's not proof-perfect, but sometimes you can make a good educated guess.

You can grab drawings for the National Telephone #3 and #635 tools from our site:
http://bellatex.com/share/2930_GAUGE.pdf
http://bellatex.com/share/GAUGE_3375.pdf

Calipers are extremely accurate if 1) you use good calipers, not plastic harbor freight $.99 versions. (A $20 - $50 set is fine) & 2) you know how to use them. This isn't snarky, the gauge is not as straight forward to read as a ruler - unless you are using a digital caliper.

I do rigging inspections as part of my full time job. I think I've see everything, until I get to the next one.
If I can give you any information or assistance feel free to call or email me, (800) 372-3373.

-Ty

[MPowers]

I'd like to comment on several things in this thread.
First, Tool and sleeve match. A number of people have done destructive pull tests using various manufacturer's tools and sleeves. The result has always been the same, no apparent difference. The reason manufacturers insist you use their tool with their sleeve is liability and traceability. Nico press (National Telephone Supply Company) will not warranty a connection made with a Loos sleeve or their own sleeve crimped with a Loos tool and vice-versa with all the companies that manufacture rigging equipment. As a rigging installer we guarantee the connections so we have to use matched tool/sleeve combinations also.

Calipers for checking Go-no go. If you mean the type that look like a pair of tongs, no. If you mean the type with a dial or LED readout, then it can be done. The catch is to use a readout type of caliper you need an accurate Go-no go gauge to get your first reading. If the gauge measures (for example) .xxy inches inside width, then a crimp that measures LESS than (not equal to) .xxy would be good, assuming it is done with the correct tool and sleeve combination for the Go-no go gauge slot that was measured. If you have a good crimp, and you know what sleeve and what tool was used to make the crimp, again you can use a readout type of caliper IF you now use the exact tool/sleeve combination as the test connection. In this case your reading can be = or less than the test crimp. Just easier to get a gauge.

# of crimps. 2 crimps on a 1/4" may be correct.....or not! Depends on which tool/die/sleeve/gauge combo was used to make the crimp. For instance, most/many tool/die/sleeve combo's for 3/16" cable require 4 crimps. The Nico Press 5506 power crimpper we use with the Oval X Die only requires 2 crimps.

The following is an excerpt from a crimp table on the JR Clancy web site.

Cable size ..... application ....... sleeve............. Tool ...............Tool groove/Die ......# crimps ... Gauge
1/4................. eye splice ........18-10-F6 .........3-F6-950............OVAL-F6............... 3..............2930
1/4................. eye splice.........18-10-F6..........3V-F6-X:M..........OVAL-F6...............3..............2930
1/4..................eye splice.........18-10-F6..........3512 Hydraulic....12-OVAL-F6...........2............3377A
1/4..................eye splice.........18-10-F6..........635 Hydraulic......OVAL-F6...............1.............3375

As you can see, the correct # of Crimps on a 1/4" eye splice varies from 1 to 3, depending on the tool/die/sleeve/gauge combo.

I'll get a go-gauge thrown into my next BMI order for this size cable,

As noted above, make sure the gauge you get matches the tool and sleeves you have on hand.

I Design, engineer, install and inspect rigging systems, that's my job. If I can be of help, PM for phone and e-mail contact and we'll get together.

Hope this helps.

[Beans45601]

(Sorry to make you turn your head) Correct me if I am wrong, but don't hydraulic presses (requiring only 1 or 2 presses) generally have much wider jaws than this? The only hydraulic presses I have ever seen had jaws that covered almost the entire sleeve in one pass. These crimps screamed hand tool to me, which is why I am worrying about the 2 crimps. I would like to assume that the people who put in this system were spot on, but looking at the other things in this image, I can't think that.

Also, the calipers I have are by no means high end, but are digital and certainly better than something from HF. However, I have no idea of what brand or model tool was used, so I am not going to worry about measuring at this point.

(edit) Oh yea. I think one of my favorite things is that dog clip in the background clipped to the cable. Cute.

[gafftapegreenia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't dog clips on trim chains once an acceptable practice? Certainly not any more, but perhaps when that system was installed?

[Beans45601]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't dog clips on trim chains once an acceptable practice? Certainly not any more, but perhaps when that system was installed?

Someone else will have to speak on that. I know that it was once A practice, but I don't know if it was ever accepted as... acceptable.

[MPowers]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't dog clips on trim chains once an acceptable practice? Certainly not any more, but perhaps when that system was installed?

Many things were once acceptable that are no longer considered safe or appropriate. A partial list follows:

1. Wire rope terminated at the batten with a clove hitch and a single wire rope clip.
2. "Dog Clips"
3. A "safety" bolt through a trim chain.
4. Malleable wire rope clips rather than forged.
5. Open "S" hooks on moving and weight bearing rigging.
6. Cast iron rigging components. AFAIK, pulley wheels are currently the only acceptable use for cast Iron.
7. Un-rated Quick links.

That's my 30 second list, there are more if I stop to think about it.

I just recently inspected a facility with about half the original, circa 1966, batten terminations still in place. Clove hitch and a single malleable clip. Now you're going to say, if it lasted that long why are we now saying it's unsafe?? The catch is, that particular connection only develops about 50% of the wire rope strength and it is prone to slipping when loaded at or close to maximum. It is extremely susceptible to slipping under shock load conditions. When is does fail in a breaking mode, the wire rope fails at the point that the live end first enters the clove hitch. Thus the rope clip is no longer in the picture and the batten falls.

The other items all have similar reasons for being no longer acceptable.

[MPowers]

......but don't hydraulic presses (requiring only 1 or 2 presses) generally have much wider jaws than this? The only hydraulic presses I have ever seen had jaws that covered almost the entire sleeve in one pass....

Some do, some don't. The 5506 tool we use has dies that usually require 2 or 3 crimps. Can't tell from the picture, I could be wrong, but the crimps "look" just a wee-tad big to get 3 of them on the sleeve and still have space between and at each end.

Is it just the picture a bit off color or are the cables a little rusty?

[Beans45601]

Is it just the picture a bit off color or are the cables a little rusty?

Pretty much every inch of cable in our house has the same 'discoloration'. Here is another better picture. It also happens to be one of the line sets that I refuse to use. Ever.

[MPowers]

......It also happens to be one of the line sets that I refuse to use. Ever.

MMMMMhummm, that would be a good choice. for soooo many reasons. However it kinda' looks like it's already out of service. Looking at the slack in the lines, is there actually a batten on the other end? Kinda looks like an old JRC Cast iron arbor top in the foreground, and a steel arbor top in the background. Is it really green? At least there are thimbles on the lines and 2 clips per line.

ls that a Clancy arbor in front? Any idea who made the green one and when?

[BanditRO]

Pretty much every inch of cable in our house has the same 'discoloration'. Here is another better picture. It also happens to be one of the line sets that I refuse to use. Ever.

"Well, there's your problem!!" Jamie Hyneman - Mythbuster

[Beans45601]

Looking at the slack in the lines, is there actually a batten on the other end? Kinda looks like an old JRC Cast iron arbor top in the foreground, and a steel arbor top in the background. Is it really green?

ls that a Clancy arbor in front? Any idea who made the green one and when?

I have no idea of who made our arbors, I never thought to look and just did, could not find any signs of identification. The one in the background is indeed green.

Pretty much all of our lines develop that slack when they don't have a lot of weight on them. The arbor does have a batten attached to it, but nothing else. I have always wondered if that wavyness was caused by some sort of trauma that happened to all the lines. They are all wonky a couple feet above the arbor. But I have never been able to come up with any ideas that made sense.

[tprewitt]

Pretty much all of our lines develop that slack when they don't have a lot of weight on them. The arbor does have a batten attached to it, but nothing else. I have always wondered if that wavyness was caused by some sort of trauma that happened to all the lines. They are all wonky a couple feet above the arbor. But I have never been able to come up with any ideas that made sense.

Two things come to mind: 1) Arbor relationship to the head block when it's at the top stop. i.e. is's so d@&n close the wire rope if getting mangled trying to feed into the head block. 2) they twisted the wire rope when it was installed or feed it in against the natural curve and it's now been abused for a zillion years.

Thanks for the pictures. (keep them to use as "before" pictures after the inevitable replacement or failure that's near.)

Hard to tell who make the gear. Could be old JRC, Hubbard, Oklahoma City, or several others. There might be stickers on the head blocks if you're that curious. If you're up there look to see if they only installed half the loft block clips; just a hunch. Good news it's not Knoxville Scenic (bright blue paint) bad news is those nico's with just 2 crimps look like they are some of the best things this system has going for it. :-)