Sound Support for a Band

[peacefulone61]

I am looking for guidance for a sound system type question. The school I work at has two major concerts; each concert has a wide variety of sound needs, from vocal support for the choir to micing instruments for the ensembles, and a rock band setup. At the moment these are handled by a few different systems with all of the rock instruments sending out to their own amps. The major draw back to this is that there is no way to adjust the balance during the performance of the different groups. I have been asked to find a way to simplify the whole process. They would also like to find a way to have monitors setup that have a controllable mix to the individual. I am not even sure what kind of information to give to be helpful at this point most of my training has been in lighting I have been picking up sound as I go.

I currently have a 24-channel board that is fed through a patch system. However, there are only 10 lines available on the stage. The Rock and Instrumental Music teacher would each like there own system that would then be pony into the main system. When they talk about this they also keep mentioning a back line, I am not sure if that is something extra they want or if it is the same thing. I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice or recommend some materials that I could use to teach myself more about my needs. Thank you for any help you can offer.

[avkid]

Wikipedia-Backline

You need all 24 inputs on stage so the amps can be either miked or put on a DI.

Possibly even a submixer on stage.

[museav]

Backline - ControlBooth

A submix of the band, which is what the Rock and Instrumental Music teacher apparently wants, is an option but one challenge is that unless you went with something liek a digital mixer with a wireless remote then they would seem to be mixing somewhere on stage so what they hear may have little relevance to what the audience hears. That may work for stage monitors but not be as desirable for mixing the band for the house.

Another potential consideration is the capability of the house system. Is it capable of supporting the output levels, frequency response, etc. that might be required or desired if everything runs through the house system?

You mentioned choral performances, ensembles and rock bands all potentially being part of performances but would they potentially all be part of a performance? If so, is it one group at a time with some interval between them or might it be all performing at once or with no time between the groups? If the latter, a 24 channel console, much less 10 inputs at the stage, may be insufficient.

[BillESC]

There will be no inexpensive solution to the problem.

[peacefulone61]

I do not think they have an issue mixing on stage because it is what they currently do. At the moment each system is set up with it's own speakers and over all it leads to a not pretty sound. I have an Allen and Heath GL3200. I think they more want the ability to have the submix to each instrument.

At one point in the concert all three groups perform together. Ultimately the Choir is in the back (not my choice but everyone thinks it is the best option for them) then the other two groups infront of them.

I am looking at having a separate snake to increase my channel options on stage as well.

I do not have a lot of money to through at this but I have some and I can build up a system over time to meet the needs then that is what I will have to do.

[marmer]

Good luck getting enough gain on the chorus without being obliterated by your instruments, especially the drum set. That's one of the most difficult live mixing jobs out there. You very well may need a plexiglass drum enclosure and you may have to train your rock band to play a lot softer than they are used to.

[venuetech]

I normally run most of the time thrue the house patch, but when a large concert comes up I run a snake (24in/4out) to the board. This simplifies troubleshooting as I do not have to deal with the house patch bay. I also can send 4 monitor mixes (via aux outputs) to a pair of stereo power amps on stage. this leaves two Aux sends for effects. What you can do may depend on what type of sound board you have.
The teachers may have seen such a system in other schools or venues so perhaps those schools may be nearby and you could go and talk with the folks about their setup.

I have had visiting jazz ensemble come in with their own mic's and system that traveled with them. but that was mainly so they could play in a gym or whatever available venue any number of schools had for them.

Your biggest problem will be getting the musicians to turn their amps down.

To "simplify the whole process" for the performers/teachers, will not be a simple task for you.
Having the right gear in hand will simplify your job.

Be sure to read the user guide/manual for your board, Often there is a graphic of typical setups study those, find one that is close to your application. you can explore other manufactures web pages for user guides of similar control boards.

[avkid]

I do not think they have an issue mixing on stage because it is what they currently do. At the moment each system is set up with it's own speakers and over all it leads to a not pretty sound. I have an Allen and Heath GL3200. I think they more want the ability to have the submix to each instrument.

It sounds like you need one of these.
Poorman's Splitter Snake
Then they can mix their own monitors from onstage while FOH controls the house mix.

[rwhealey]

I think a snake from the stage to the FOH mix position would help a lot with you problem. Using, say, a 24x8 snake would allow you to do 8 different monitor mixes from the FOH position with you GL3200, assuming that you have eight amplifier channels available and eight monitors.

I'd work with the other groups to combine the systems. Use their speakers as monitors, and the auditorium's system for the audience's audio (assuming it's up to the task). Control everything from the FOH position. DI as much as you can (Keys, electic bass, etc...) and feed it back through the monitors - then you have control over the level. Mic what you can't DI and make sure the rock musicians aren't too loud.

In my opinion, mixing from the stage (or behind glass) isn't mixing - it's guessing.

[bishopthomas]

There will be no inexpensive solution to the problem.

Couldn't agree more. You're going to get better results hiring in a company for those 2 performances each year than trying to cobble something together yourself. Even if you spend money on gear you will still not be happy with the results. This sounds like a job for someone who does this more than once or twice a year. I mean no offense here, just trying to bring some realism into your performance. If it matters hire it out.

[marmer]

Couldn't agree more. You're going to get better results hiring in a company for those 2 performances each year than trying to cobble something together yourself. Even if you spend money on gear you will still not be happy with the results. This sounds like a job for someone who does this more than once or twice a year. I mean no offense here, just trying to bring some realism into your performance. If it matters hire it out.

I completely agree and it's what my venue would do in the same situation. That said, what you describe sounds similar to what a lot of medium-sized churches do in contemporary-style worship services. Many such churches have A/V departments and full-time sound techs. Might be worth seeking out one of them for advice.

[museav]

I do not think they have an issue mixing on stage because it is what they currently do. At the moment each system is set up with it's own speakers and over all it leads to a not pretty sound. I have an Allen and Heath GL3200. I think they more want the ability to have the submix to each instrument.

If they want to create their own monitor mixes on stage that's fine, the concerns are that a) because what they would hear may be quite different than what the audience hears they aren't going to be able to make good decision regarding a submix to feed the FOH system and b) if not addressed properly the issues you currently encounter with instrument speakers may just be replaced by similar or even added issues with stage monitors. And unless there is a good chance of some significant improvement then what is the point of spending the money to change anything?

I do not have a lot of money to through at this but I have some and I can build up a system over time to meet the needs then that is what I will have to do.

And that may be a very good approach. I've seen too many people simply do something, often based on some randomly established budget, rather than developing solutions. It's easy to get into a trend where you don't have the money to do what you need or want to do so you spend what you have on something that fits the budget. Next year the same things happens and so on, you keeping buying stuff but never developing a comprehensive solution. In many cases it is better to have some long term master plan so if you are limited on purchases at any one time you can at least make those purchases based on their fitting into some longer term overall solution rather than as more random purchases.

[henrylarry6]

I agree with you museav

[peacefulone61]

I will be meeting with the Teachers to get a better sense of there realistic needs and a three year plan to implement the changes. I have decided to ask them to think of the best case situation and build to that instead of building to our current needs and then in three years be out striped again.

[TimmyP1955]

Get a Presonus Studio Live and a MacBook Pro. You won't need a snake, you will be able to mix FOH from anywhere in the room with an iPad, and one or more people will be able to mix monitors with iPads. Should make everyone happy.

[museav]

Get a Presonus Studio Live and a MacBook Pro. You won't need a snake, you will be able to mix FOH from anywhere in the room with an iPad, and one or more people will be able to mix monitors with iPads. Should make everyone happy.

I'm not a big fan of remote mixing from an iPad in general for events such as those described but the StudioLive is probably one of the consoles that least benefits from remote FOH mixing. Because the faders and some other controls (gain/trim, aux masters, EFX sends, etc.) are not automated and have to be manually set as part of scene recalls, you essentially have to be at the mixer surface to effectively use scenes. And scenes might be a useful functionality during an event with multiple groups or combinations of groups performing. So if you need to have the console at a FOH mix location to address the non-motorized controls, then how do you get audio in and out of the mixer to the other locations without a snake?

Also, just to avoid misunderstandings, along with the mixer and iPad(s) you need a wireless network. It seems obvious but apparently some people assume that mixers touting wireless control functionality include everything needed for the wireless networking.

[peacefulone61]

Get a Presonus Studio Live and a MacBook Pro. You won't need a snake, you will be able to mix FOH from anywhere in the room with an iPad, and one or more people will be able to mix monitors with iPads. Should make everyone happy.

Someone in the schools IT Department found this sound board and is trying to get me to switch over the whole sound system because he thinks it would be cool to "do it all on an iPad"

[museav]

Someone in the schools IT Department found this sound board and is trying to get me to switch over the whole sound system because he thinks it would be cool to "do it all on an iPad"

Maybe if these are your bands, concert iphone ipad - YouTube, iBand - Living on a Prayer - YouTube and StarKing iBand: In the Hall of the Mountain King - YouTube.