Buying new speakers...Phonic iSK15 Vs Wharfedale EVP-X15

[stonehedge99]

Hi,

I might have to pick up 4 speakers for my crown xls 802 amplifier. Id like you guys to give me your suggestions on which will be a better match and have a longer life ?

Plan is to run 2 speakers on each side (L&R) so 2 speakers of 8 ohms each = a 4 ohms load with each speaker rated approximately 300 rms. So 600 rms each side @ 4 ohms ?

The specs says the Wharfedales are 300 rms continous / 600 music / 1200 peak @ 8 ohms.

The Phonics seem to be rated 350 rms continuous / 700 music / 1400 peak @ 8 ohms.

My Crown xls 802 can put out 800 rms per side when running @ 4 ohms ?

So considering this which speaker should i go with ?

Thanks

[rwhealey]

You may be aware of this already, but you're going about this backwards. The loudspeakers are the most important component of a sound system. Pick the correct loudspeakers, then pick amplifiers.

However, you've got the amp. Why are you planning to run two speakers a side? How is the room shaped?

I, personally, would pick "none of the above" and look at the Electro-Voice ELX or SX series. Neither Phonic nor Wharfedale are particularly well known for sound quality or longevitity.

[stonehedge99]

Why is that you have to suggest only the most expensive equipment which is not at all in my budget bracket ? DO you also know if these brands are available in my country. They are very hard to find, if not impossible.

I obviously know that these extremely costly brands would perform much better. But got any suggestions in my budget territory ?

Also theres no hard and fast rule that you should pick the speakers and then the amplifier. Maybe its each persons own made up rule. Buy the car and build the garage or find a car that suits your garage.

The room is a hall, 55'x68' feet.

[museav]

Why is that you have to suggest only the most expensive equipment which is not at all in my budget bracket ? DO you also know if these brands are available in my country. They are very hard to find, if not impossible.

I obviously know that these extremely costly brands would perform much better. But got any suggestions in my budget territory ?

Also theres no hard and fast rule that you should pick the speakers and then the amplifier. Maybe its each persons own made up rule. Buy the car and build the garage or find a car that suits your garage.

The room is a hall, 55'x68' feet.

There is no rule, but it is usually the goal that the speakers best fit the application and that is usually determined by things like the use, the space, the listener area to be served, etc. It's also difficult to address budget when none is provided or to know what is available to others if they don't tell you.

So back to the beginning. What are you trying to do with the speaker system? What is the application? Why are you looking at two speakers per side? What is your budget? What brands are available to you? In general, what is the basis for any comparison or suggestions?

Both the iSK15 and the EVP-X15 are nominal 90 degree horizontal boxes and there are limited applications where one would necessarily need or benefit by having two nominal 90 degree horizontal pattern speakers per side. If you do need around 180 degree horizontal coverage then two boxes per side may make sense, although I will bet that the pattern of those particular speakers actually vary quite a bit and are nowhere near the nominal values for most of the speech/vocal frequency range and below while I also doubt that multiple boxes array nicely. However, if you don't need such wide coverage then you may be better off with a single higher quality box per side.

You XLS 802 is rated at 800W per channel into 4 Ohms, but that is also at 1kHz. Unless all you will be reproducing is 1kHz tones, expect the actual number to likely be less than that. However, if you are simply concerned with output then both the iSK15 and the EVP-X15 are rated at 98dB@1W/1m (I have no idea how that number was derived) and both are nominal 8 Ohm impedance. Therefore, they would theoretically provide the same output level.

[stonehedge99]

The audience rows are wider than deep towards the back of the hall. In other words the left to right span of the hall is 68'. the apron of the stage to the back of the hall is 55'. Also the idea for 2 speakers on each side was because of, simple, we needed more sound, more power. More number of people right.

Now to the actual application. Its a seated audience watching a live show very similar to an awards ceremony. 1 mc talking. And then music playback as fillers. Thats all there is to it. At times darkened hall and video projections being played back and the soundtrack plays on this system. Its a silent and listening audience not a talking, jumping and raving audience as in a nightclub or dance floor. Total number of people = 350. Ceiling height 12 ft.

[museav]

The audience rows are wider than deep towards the back of the hall. In other words the left to right span of the hall is 68'. the apron of the stage to the back of the hall is 55'. Also the idea for 2 speakers on each side was because of, simple, we needed more sound, more power. More number of people right.

Not really. Two speakers reproducing the same signal means interactions that could result in up to 6dB gain at some frequencies and potentially total cancellation at other frequencies, typically with around a 3dB increase in the overall level. If you found a speaker that provided 3dB greater output then you could essentially get the same output as two lower output speakers but without all the potential associated frequency anomalies. And if you found a speaker capable of more than 3dB greater output, you could end up well ahead.

Now to the actual application. Its a seated audience watching a live show very similar to an awards ceremony. 1 mc talking. And then music playback as fillers. Thats all there is to it. At times darkened hall and video projections being played back and the soundtrack plays on this system. Its a silent and listening audience not a talking, jumping and raving audience as in a nightclub or dance floor. Total number of people = 350. Ceiling height 12 ft.

What are the room finishes? 68 wide and 55' deep is pretty big for a 12' ceiling and chances are a lot of the speaker energy is going to be hitting the ceiling. Reflections off the walls and ceiling as well as the combfiltering noted above generally reduce intelligibility. In fact, if the application is primarily speech then unless the idea is to have the left speaker cover one half of the room and the right speaker the other half rather than stereo where both speakers cover all listeners, you might want to think twice about having left and right speakers or at least panning the vocals to just one or the other.

Look at it this way, if you have the same audio in four speakers and someone hears sound from all four then they first hear the desired direct sound from the closest speaker, followed a tiny bit later the direct sound from the next closest speaker, then a bit later from the next closest and finally from the speaker furthest away. They also hear any indirect sound from all four speakers off any acoustically reflective surfaces with the associated delays. All of those added arrivals after the one initial direct arrival tend to affect the ability to understand the audio. The more you can do to reduce those potentially interfering signals, the more likely people are to be able to understand what is said.

[stonehedge99]

OK, but electrovoice speakers will produce sound that will never hit the walls and bounce and the audience will only hear what comes from the speaker ?

And im sorry if forgot to mention this would be a travelling gig. So each month different halls. So i dont think the hall finish maters much in this case because i will have no control over it in the future venues. This show will only run a month in the venue i specified. After that maybe another venue after 3 months. Max would be 3 months in a year that i will use these speakers.

[rwhealey]

No, the brand of the speaker isn't magic, but using two 90 degree speakers per side will cause the problems Brad has described.

We're just trying to help. Tapatalk doesn't show your location in the thread, so I assumed you were in the US. Here, the ELX112 is the same price as both the speakers you listed. I'm not sure what's available where you are.

[gafftaper]

What other brands are accessible where you are? Can you give us some sense of the relative cost?

I would say don't design your sound system for a room which is 68'x55'x12' if you are doing a traveling show. Design for the most multi-purpose system you can afford... which is probably two better speakers rather than 4. Museav is giving you really great advice, trust him.

[stonehedge99]

OK guys. Here goes.

In my country the Phonic and the Wharfedales are priced at the same. 240 usd each box. I also prefered multiple speakers because maybe in the future i could take only one set when its a very small hall. And redundancy also plays a part. Also i can add 2 more speakers and have 3 on each side and so on. The multiple speakers on each side is just to have power and nothing to do with sound dispersion as i dont know much about cancellation issues. I thought i can have the 2 left speakers seperated by 10 ft or even each one at a different height. Plus i have a van which cant transport huge speakers. So mulltiple smaller units become more easily manageable. And tomorrow if one fails i can replace just that one speaker instead of putting all my money onto 1 expensive box. Again im not saying this may be the most ideal or right way to go about things, but its the rough plan i was wanting to work on. The amps i have is one xls 802 and one xls 202.

Now the brands which i have available in the 300rms segment are, Wharfedale, Phonic, Behringer. Then there are no name brands of ABS bodied speakers also available. The afore named brands are within my reach, though the behringers are rated only 200rms compared to their equally priced counterparts and also 100 usd more in price. JBLs are available, but in my dreams, they want 700 usd per box. I have access to Proton speakers, they look like barf boxes or some of those plastic dustbins minus the USE ME sign, u neednt guess, much cheaper yes. Importing to my country from UK or USA etc is out of the question. Ill be bankrupt by the time i cover the shipping cost and pay the customs guys almost the cost of the speaker. Customs duty is 50% of the value. And ive seen how customs values it. They open ebay etc surf the model number and whichever mentions the highest rate they will slap customs fees based on that.

I undertand what Museav is trying to say at least vauguely, but i cant afford very expensive stuff for this project. What can i do ? And here i cant get the good name brands for lesser than 1000 usd for 2 boxes like museav suggests. Everything is 3 times more expensive here. You guys over there get fabulous offers, fantabulous warranty periods. Here all i get is zero. Do you know here they tell you the minute you take the equipment its ur headache. NO WARRANTY ever on any item. Even the crown amps i have, they dont offer the 3 year warranty that crown says is internationally available. Its a shame on them. They need to talk to their countrywide distributors and tell them to uphold the name and warranty policy and image.

[museav]

I also prefered multiple speakers because maybe in the future i could take only one set when its a very small hall. And redundancy also plays a part. Also i can add 2 more speakers and have 3 on each side and so on. The multiple speakers on each side is just to have power and nothing to do with sound dispersion as i dont know much about cancellation issues. I thought i can have the 2 left speakers seperated by 10 ft or even each one at a different height. Plus i have a van which cant transport huge speakers. So mulltiple smaller units become more easily manageable. And tomorrow if one fails i can replace just that one speaker instead of putting all my money onto 1 expensive box. Again im not saying this may be the most ideal or right way to go about things, but its the rough plan i was wanting to work on.

I understand what you're saying and it is fairly common for people to have multiple speakers in order to address different venues. But the optimal way to do that it approaching it as more speakers = more area covered and not as more speakers = more level over the same area. What they'll do is get some speakers that a) have a smaller horizontal coverage, maybe 60 degrees or less, and b) array well together. In a narrower space they may use one box with a 60 degree pattern. If the room is a bit wider then they might use two boxes arrayed for maybe 100-120 degrees of coverage. If the room is quite wide then they'll use three boxes with maybe 160-180 degrees of total horizontal coverage. So the number of speakers is adjusted based on the listener area to be covered, not to vary the source level. And people don't usually try to do this with 90 degree horizontal pattern boxes because not only are you already starting with a fairly wide pattern with one box but the incremental change for each additional box is also quite large.

Just to reiterate, more speakers covering the same area may slightly increase the overall level, although it would be a minimally noticeable difference most people would notice a 3dB increase, but it also potentially increases the level of some frequencies by more than 3dB and reduces the level of other frequencies. And which frequencies are increased or decreased in level will vary around the listener space based on the relationships to the speakers, thus it is not something you can compensate for with equalization.

Also consider that your XLS802 has a 500W rating at 8 Ohms and 800W at 4 Ohms. So one speaker at 500W versus two splitting 800W, which means that you'd actually get a 2dB overall increase with two speakers covering the same area and then you're to where the difference may not even be apparent to everyone.

The overall point is that having two speakers may make sense, but more likely in terms of redundancy and the ability to adjust the system coverage to fit different listener areas than in terms of providing greater output. And in the context of being able to provide flexibility of the coverage, an inexpensive, compact 90 degree box is typically not an ideal option. It may be all you can afford, just try to be aware of its advantages and disadvantages and employ them wisely.

[stonehedge99]

But they dont seem to have boxes which are 500w rms in my budget. Can i do one thing. I think what your trying to say is that 2 speakers next to each other will cancel the others due to the sound waves (in my layman parlance). So if i put 2 in the front L+R and then have another set of LR a little way into the audience ? Or maybe even all 4 on front but seperated by about 12 feet space between each speaker on the left and right respectively.

The auditorium is really wider than longer. 70' approx in left to right width.

Thanks

[FMEng]

Don't put too much importance on the power rating of the speakers. There is nothing wrong with using speakers with a power rating that is less or more than the amp driving them. With the type of program you are using them for, they won't be stressed by the amount of power. Voice audio generally does not heat up components enough to cause any damage because the power is not delivered continuously over time. There are gaps in the signal which allows time for cooling. If you were running high level music for really long periods of time, then I'd worry about power ratings.

[stonehedge99]

Hi Fm,

But what do you think of my idea of putting 2 wharfedales on each side of the stage ? 4 speakers in total and running them with my crown xls 802 ?

Thanks

[museav]

But they dont seem to have boxes which are 500w rms in my budget.

Don't confuse rated power handling with output and that it is usually the output rather than the power that matters. The power rating tells you how much power the speaker can handle, not how loud it can get. The output is a function of the power and the speaker sensitivity, which is basically how loud the speaker gets for a given voltage or power level and usually specified at 1 Watt and 1 meter. So you can get increased output by using a different speaker with the same sensitivity and greater power handling or by using one with the same power rating but greater sensitivity. In theory, a speaker with a 100W power rating and 100dB@1W/1m sensitivity would have a maximum output of 120dB@1m, approximately the same maximum output as a speaker rated at 500W and 93dB@1W/1m or one rated for 1,000W and 90dB@1W/1m.

Can i do one thing. I think what your trying to say is that 2 speakers next to each other will cancel the others due to the sound waves (in my layman parlance). So if i put 2 in the front L+R and then have another set of LR a little way into the audience ? Or maybe even all 4 on front but seperated by about 12 feet space between each speaker on the left and right respectively.

I'm not sure what you believe this will gain, but you may not see the benefit you expect.

It sounds like your intent is to have two speakers per side with them both covering the same listeners. That is quite different than two speakers arranged such that each speaker covers half the listener area with a minimum amount of overlap, which reduces the potential issues with interactions between the speakers since most listeners hear primarily one or the other speaker and few listeners are covered equally by both speakers. In comparison, if listeners hear the same sound from more than one speaker then the resulting interactions can be significant.

With two speakers of equal level reproducing the same signal, covering the same listeners and located several feet apart, what is likely to happen is that some listeners will see up to a 6dB increase in level while others may see virtually no change, with an average increase of around 3dB. That is assuming the speaker level remained consistent, but as already noted, in your case two speakers on a single amp channel would actually make those numbers 4dB and 2dB. However, due to the signals from the two speakers arriving at most listeners at slightly different times, along with any change in overall level they may also experience an effect on the frequency response. That effect will vary throughout the listener area and cannot be addressed with equalization.

That is the physics, but there is also a perceptual aspect. One element of that is that a 3dB increase in Sound Pressure Level is generally considered a readily perceptible difference while the 2dB average increase you could expect would be just noticeable and perhaps not even noticeable to some. However, neither is even close to being perceived as twice as loud, which would require a 10dB increase. On the other hand, studies have shown that we do 'hear with our eyes' and thus some people may perceive two speakers as being louder whether they actually are or not. This is why I sometimes suggest that if people feel they need the look of two speakers to go ahead with that but just don't connect one of them.

Only you can decide whether the actual and perceived effects would be worth it in your applications, but if you are thinking that two speakers would make it twice as loud, that is not going to happen.

[FMEng]

Hi Fm,

But what do you think of my idea of putting 2 wharfedales on each side of the stage ? 4 speakers in total and running them with my crown xls 802 ?

Thanks

Brad is an expert and you would be wise to take his advice. It is generally best to cover an area with the least number of speakers possible. If you can do that with two, then don't use four. The exception to that would be with speakers that are designed to be arrayable, but those are beyond your budget. I think that for most situations, you will have better results from two, higher quality speakers than you would from four, lower quality ones.