Installs - Redoing Theatre Intercom

[lovellc083]

Hello,
My college theatre is about to start its new season (well, my work will begin shortly....) and I would really like to update the comm system. Currently, we are using an old intercom donated by another local college's theatre department. We have a headset for lighting and for the director. Right now the base hub for the system sits up in the lighting/sound booth and the cable for the director's head set is run out through the window...I would like to use the system we have right now, but am looking to expand it. I have included a rough sketch of the theatre's layout for reference.

[zmb]

If you're going to do it right, that's going to mean getting cable pulled through the walls. Expect to spend some good money to get that done.

[DuckJordan]

If you're going to do it right, that's going to mean getting cable pulled through the walls. Expect to spend some good money to get that done.

Um not quite, my college had a setup similar, We ran cable (mic cable) all over the place for intercoms. Doing it right, does not necessarily mean installed.

[Edrick]

How did you run the cables?

I'd like to say doing it right DOES mean getting it installed, where as just ziptying it or draping it from items and making it work wouldn't be considered doing it right, but doing it low budget.

[Tex]

87 1/2 seats? Who sits in the half seat?

[museav]

87 1/2 seats? Who sits in the half seat?

Handicapped and/or companion seat?

I'm uncertain how to respond to the OP as we a) don't know any specifics about what they currently have, b) don't know what they are trying to achieve, c) don't know details such as what is "Backstage" or what is in the Booth and d) don't know what physical, financial and human resources are available. While we may be able to make some guesses and assumptions regarding the goals, the other aspects require that some additional information be provided. For example, it's impossible to identify how much expansion is even possible, much less how to approach it, without knowing more about your exisiting hardware and having some idea of the budget available.

If it is to be a permanent installation then there are likely some considerations in terms of where you can route cables, how any cable must be installed and what cable can be used.

Added: I will say that when I have been involved in comms retrofits for schools there are often two phases and budgets, one to address providing all of the related conduit, boxes and any other infrastructure and a second for the comms system itself. And sometimes the latter is split over two budgets, one for the hardware and one for the system installation, configuration and testing. I'm not suggesting that is the best approach, but it is common to have to address conduit, boxes, etc. separately as the school may already have parties that provide that type of work for them.

[BillESC]

Why not go wireless? There is a broad range of systems available and once you take wire, conduit and labor out of the equation, wireless becomes very competitive.

I'm currently specifing a system for an other theatre.

[lovellc083]

Handicapped and/or companion seat?

I'm uncertain how to respond to the OP as we a) don't know any specifics about what they currently have, b) don't know what they are trying to achieve, c) don't know details such as what is "Backstage" or what is in the Booth and d) don't know what physical, financial and human resources are available. While we may be able to make some guesses and assumptions regarding the goals, the other aspects require that some additional information be provided. For example, it's impossible to identify how much expansion is even possible, much less how to approach it, without knowing more about your exisiting hardware and having some idea of the budget available.

If it is to be a permanent installation then there are likely some considerations in terms of where you can route cables, how any cable must be installed and what cable can be used.

To answer the 1/2 a seat, we have a gag in the theatre and have 1/2 a seat glued to the wall...
as to the rest: a) Right now we have a basic clearCom (not sure of make/model, I'm not sitting in the theatre right now...) with 2 channels, I would go out on a limb and call it a portable unit, with no thing running through walls, just cable, headsets, and normal outlet plug. We currently only use one of the channels. There is one headset in the booth with the "main hub" and one line run out the window to the director's headset.
b)Trying to achieve a useful communications system. Currently there is no way to communicate to backstage except for a cell phone, which I won't ever consider using unless there is an emergency.
c) A little more help with details about the theatre... It was an old carriage house which was converted into a theatre. So the booth is actually part of the original house that protrudes of the audience (you can still see the painted shingles of the exterior of the house when sitting in the theatre) It has the lighting and sound control board. It is accessed through the green room which is also on the second floor. As for the backstage, it is the only rear entrance to the stage (the other entrance is through the side door of the audience). Nothing fancy backstage, just an exterior exit door to get out of the theatre.
d) right now we are fundraising for our upcoming new works festival, so we hope to have some funding from that for a new system. We also should be able to get some funding from the school for these upgrades.

I hope all that information helps....

[derekleffew]

... There is one headset in the booth with the "main hub" and ...

"Main hub"=Main station or Base station. Yours is likely a CS-222 Manual.pdf. This system is easily expandable using one- or two-channel beltpack s (Production Intercom is a favorite cost-effective and compatible option) and standard 3pin XLR microphone cable s. See the sample diagrams in the manual. Whether or not the wiring must be in conduit and/or is permitted to penetrate walls/floors depends on your local electrical codes.

[lovellc083]

"Main hub"=Main station or Base station. Yours is likely a CS-222 Manual.pdf. This system is easily expandable using one- or two-channel beltpack s (Production Intercom is a favorite cost-effective and compatible option) and standard 3pin XLR microphone cable s. See the sample diagrams in the manual. Whether or not the wiring must be in conduit and/or is permitted to penetrate walls/floors depends on your local electrical codes.

Going through that book, I realized that we actually are just running the system of of PS-22 only.....

[ccm1495]

Seeing as from your last it seems that your are in an old retrofitted building this might not be an option, but if you are looking into running cables in the walls look for abandoned conduits that contractors left behind that are empty or have space and are already carrying other sound wires.

In my school we where able to run a whole set of cabling for camera positions using per existing unused or underutilized conduits.

[DrPinto]

Do you have an audio snake running from the booth to backstage? Grab a channel and use it for the intercom.

[museav]

Going through that book, I realized that we actually are just running the system of of PS-22 only.....

So you have no Master Station, but you do have a two channel power supply and I also assume you currently have at least two beltpacks. That means that you have the basic foundation for a system but one that would truly be a simple party line system.

The PS-22 supports up to 30 headset stations or 10 speaker stations (or some mix with one speaker station being equivalent to three headset stations). Along with deciding where the power supply would be located (a central location is often beneficial), a typical starting point would be to determine where you want wall plates for beltpacks, where you want wall mount stations, where you want wall mount speaker stations, etc. It might be common to use speaker stations in dressing rooms and the Green Room and wall plates most everywhere else, but you decide what works for you. And since you are dealing with an existing, repurposed building, this effort may require considering both your functional needs and the physical cabling paths, device locations, etc. available. When you establish the locations and cable paths you may want to consider how penetrations of fire rated walls, runs through plenum space or risers and so on may affect the cabling and/or conduit required.

The basic wiring is fairly simple, you essentially 'loop' or daisy-chain between locations. The power supply has three connections per channel so you could have up to three loops per channel direct to the power supply. One possible consideration is that the power supply can support two channels and has a switch that can tie or separate the channels. You don't have to operate as two channels if there is no real advantage to it, but you could essentially have two 'subsystems' that could be tied together with one switch on the power supply. If you wanted to have even greater flexibility with the two channels you could incorporate a two channel master or remote station (you can use a remote station since you already have the power supply) and/or you could use two channel speaker and beltpack stations. But that does get more complex to wire and use as well as being more expensive.

The beltpack wall plates are really nothing special, a single channel beltpack station connection is simply a standard XLR. I tend to use male connectors on the wall plates as that allows using a standard male-to-female cable to the beltpack and helps differentiate the intercom connections from microphone inputs.

Used Clear-Com and Production Intercom beltpacks, headsets, etc. are usually fairly easy to find. Beltpacks can live a hard life but the metal ones are usually very durable and if you're not worried about how they look you may be able to find some used ones at a good price. However, one challenge you apparently face is that since you don't actually have a budget, your probably not in a position to purchase now. So be careful of assuming that the great deal on some used items that you see today will still be available when you actually have the funds and are ready to purchase. You may be better to establish a budget based on new or readily available equipment and then later be able to actually purchase more, or have some budget left for other things, by getting some deals on used equipment. And don't forget that as you add more locations and users, the chances of a headset, cable or even beltpack needing repair or replacement grows, so you might want to plan on maintaining some spares of those items.

[BillESC]

Or you can install a wireless interface to your current system and have wireless com stations anywhere you want.

[museav]

Or you can install a wireless interface to your current system and have wireless com stations anywhere you want.

It seems that they don't really have an existing 'system' they have a power supply in the booth for a headset and drop a cable out the window to serve a second headset. So while a wireless approach may have some advantages, it seems that about the best they could do without some installation of a wired system would be two people in the booth on the existing wired headsets. a wireless interface/master station also located in the booth and everything outside the booth wireless.

As far as I can tell, a basic Telex BTR or HME wireless system seems to be around $3k for the base station and close to $1k per transceiver with a base station likely limited to four transceivers. Used wireless systems that operate on legal frequencies don't seem to be that much less than some of the new systems. In comparison, new RS-601 beltpacks are less than $300 and speaker stations under $400 with used/eBay RS-501/601 beltpacks under $200. So for the cost of a four transceiver wireless system you apparently could get a new speaker station for the Green Room, half a dozen new beltpacks and still have $4,0000 or $5,000 available for cable, plates and installation. Are there other wireless options that are reliable, easy to use, interference resistant, work through walls and floors and are more cost effective compared to a wired partyline system?

[BillESC]

A complete three person wireless starter package is only $ 2800.00 and is expandable to 8 wireless and 4 wired stations.

Kind of a no brainer IMHO.

[museav]

A complete three person wireless starter package is only $ 2800.00 and is expandable to 8 wireless and 4 wired stations.

Kind of a no brainer IMHO.

Do you mean the Eartec ComStar FlexMax? Have you actually seen them or had a chance to use them? It's amazing that as many times as Eartec has been dicussed here and on other forums I can't find any reviews of Eartec products other than people seeing them at trade shows and the consumer oriented SimulTalk systems, but apprently if you are taking riding lessons and need to hear the instructor those are great for that.

While they don't give specifics, Eartec indicates that the ComStar systems operate in the 1900 MHz DECT (1920-1930 MHz for the US) band, the same band used by Cordless Phones: Cordless Telephones - Best Buy. I believe the wired aspect of the Eartec hybrid system relates to use with their headsets rather than to ties into other systems. They do offer an interface series to tie their wireless ComStar systems into wired Clear-Com, Telex, etc. systems but apparently you don't have that option with the hybrid wireless/wired system.

I can't find mention on Eartec's web site of any associated warranty. In fact I can't find much detailed or technical information at all and even the 'manuals' are very cursory with little detail.

I am personally not a fan of the combined headset/transceiver concept for theatre comms, too much experience with damaged headsets, bad headset mics, etc. being common. Having a couple of spare headsets is one thing, but having a couple of spare headset/transceivers is usually going to be less practical.

With no reviews, limited product information, an unknown warranty and return policy, etc. combined with their already having some wired Clear-Com components, an Eartec system might be an option, perhaps one of the ComStar interface products so you could have wireless Eartec but use and expand the wired Clear-Com they have, but I would not consider it a "no brainer".

[BillESC]

I have them operating in several facilities without a hint of a problem to date.