Is using MTPIT Legal?

[ninjacowonskis]

Well the title says it all really, but if you want details...

My stage doesn't have an orchestra pit and so each time we do a musical we have to find some place to put the orchestra. We usually end up taking out a few seats just in front of the stage and cramming in a 5 piece band. This causes many acoustical problems between them being to loud for the audiance and to quiet for the performers. Last year we decided to try out MTPit which if you aren't familiar with uses a digitally recorded full orchestra and we rent the digital recorder from them and hook it into our system. We had so many compliments last year for the first time ever we decided to do it again this year.

Well it turns out when I mention this to the publishers they get out bent out of shape and start quoting their contracts about how they state that we must use an orchestra. Well MTpit says that we aren't using a synthesized piece of music but in fact are renting the orchestra from them it just happens to be recorded.

My question is who the heck is right? I mean I understand the publishers wishes for us to use live music but for some that just isn't possible. I'd really hate to have to go back to having to hear about how no one can hear the actors even when they are microphoned. But of course I really do not want to be caught up in a legal battle. We can't be the only ones with this problem.

Any legal minded people out there with some kind of idea on this? Or is it just the publishers trying to frighten us?

thanks

[sk8rsdad]

I don't think there is a clear definition of what is legal available to us. This is contract law, and without access to the contract it is difficult to discuss legality, other than to state that you are obliged to uphold the terms agreed to in the contract. There are exceptions to the rule, like if the contract requires you to do something that would break another law, but I doubt that is what you mean by legal.

As copyright holder, or agent for the copyright holder, the publishing house gets to set the terms. If you agree to the contract then you agree to their terms. This particular issue is further complicated by the terms by which the publisher is constrained. In the case of musicals, and especially Broadway musicals, there are a lot of stakeholders all scrambling for a piece of the pie. That might mean the publisher is obliged to insist upon live musicians. To get around this, MTI offers several versions of the same musical, some of which come with pre-recorded music, age restrictions for actors, etc. in order to meet the demands of their market, and satisfy the requirements imposed upon them by the Musicians Union.

In any event, it should be defined in the contract, or in a document cited in the contract.

[museav]

Well it turns out when I mention this to the publishers they get out bent out of shape and start quoting their contracts about how they state that we must use an orchestra. Well MTpit says that we aren't using a synthesized piece of music but in fact are renting the orchestra from them it just happens to be recorded.

I wonder if MT Pit would accept a copy of a real check as payment?

I did note that MT Pit is very clear that you have to first obtain all licensing and rights essentially as though you were using a live orchestra. If the rightsholder or their agent chooses to apply a stipulation to granting those rights that the orchestra actually be live, then I believe that is their perogative. However, this is the type of issue that really should be addressed by a qualified legal expert.

[JChenault]

Note that there are some publishers who have figured out how to make money from these kinds of systems. For example, MTI supports OrchExtra which is a system to supplement ( and by supplement they mean from a couple of fixtures to the entire pit ) for a number of their shows.

I believe there is another similar system used other publishers but I don't remember the name at present.

To the OP - just to be clear - you are planning to rent the orchestration as if you were having a live orchestra aren't you? What show and who is the publisher?

Have you looked at the contract and does it mention a minimum number of live musicians?

[ScottT]

I believe there is another similar system used other publishers but I don't remember the name at present.

Sinfonia?

[Scarrgo]

We did a show with MTPit, It was Wizard of Oz.
As per our contract(yours may differ)we had to rent all the books for the orchestra as if we were having a live pit. Everybody gets their money and everybody is happy.
I dont think we will do it again, it is kind of rough if there is a problem onstage, vamping was a small issue.

But, it did sound good.

Good luck
Sean...

[FACTplayers]

We have used OrchExtra. It was alright. Kind of a buggy system and caused a lot of interference. Overall it's a really cool program and idea, did I mention expensive? We still purchased the rights as if we were using an orchestra. We had a couple live players playing along with orchextra. It turned out really well. Unless your contract is different, I don't see why the publishers have a problem with MTPit.

[museav]

We have used OrchExtra. It was alright. Kind of a buggy system and caused a lot of interference. Overall it's a really cool program and idea, did I mention expensive? We still purchased the rights as if we were using an orchestra. We had a couple live players playing along with orchextra. It turned out really well. Unless your contract is different, I don't see why the publishers have a problem with MTPit.

It will often be about money but it may also be just like some playwrights won't let certain scenes or lines be cut or anything else they feel is critical to maintaining the integrity and intent of the piece. If the creator and/or rightsholder feel that a live orchestra is critical to maintaining the intent of the music or the performance then they conceivably may attach that condition.

[FACTplayers]

It will often be about money but it may also be just like some playwrights won't let certain scenes or lines be cut or anything else they feel is critical to maintaining the integrity and intent of the piece. If the creator and/or rightsholder feel that a live orchestra is critical to maintaining the intent of the music or the performance then they conceivably may attach that condition.

I understand they want their hard work to look as good as possible; anyone would want that. But nothing is stopping a production from using terrible actors and ruining the production anyways. Or something worse, like trying to fly Peter Pan and taking the set down instead. IMO sometimes companies get too uptight and don't want to embrace innovations, such as MTPit, when it realistically won't break the show.

[museav]

I understand they want their hard work to look as good as possible; anyone would want that. But nothing is stopping a production from using terrible actors and ruining the production anyways. Or something worse, like trying to fly Peter Pan and taking the set down instead. IMO sometimes companies get too uptight and don't want to embrace innovations, such as MTPit, when it realistically won't break the show.

The quality of a performance is subjective and even if one wanted to do so, trying to define, much less assess and enforce, subjective criteria would be difficult. In comparison, whether you have a live orchestra or not is fairly objective and easy to define and determine.

I also view the situation as actually somewhat analogous to what I deal with in building design and construction where the designer can define the work to be performed, the design intent, but the builder is responsible for how it is performed, the means and methods. Where a designer specifies qualitative criteria there needs to be some accepted objective manner to verify compliance or it can easily become a mess.

We don't know if that may be a factor here or not, I was only trying to point out that it could be relevant. And from that, that it might be worth trying to find out more about the specific issue involved so that you might explore some alternative or compromise solutions.