mixing techniques?

[AlexD]

I was wondering of other ways to set a mix for live bands or theta productions, What I would do is set the fader to 0 and then set the gain to as far as it will go with out distorting or feeding back, then I would set the faders down to create a good mix.

I was just wondering how dose everyone else set there mix's?

This question has been poorly asked, I apologize. What I am asking is what is your techniques on setting the mix for what ever production or application you do?

[Blah067]

After you properly set your gain structure, you "mix" the channels. That's the "main part" of mixing. You make sure you can hear everything the way it was meant to be heard. What you hear more/less of is based on what you're mixing for. It all depends on the group. This doesn't apply to gain structure for the most part however...just "mixing".

PM a mod and have them do it. (title).

[Dillon]

AlexD-
Your technique is the defacto standard for most folks in the recording world. You are maximizing your signal-to-noise ratio, getting the most dynamic range possible out of each input.

The drawbacks to this technique are as follows:
*you get a lot less room for fine adjustment when you are running your cowbell at -30 on the fader where a 5mm move will swing the level by 10dB or more, while at unity you'll only change the level by 2 or 3 dB. This reduces your ability to refine the details your mix.
*you have no idea where to start from. Since your triangle, bass drum, and vocalist all are set to the same level (via differing gains) you will now be running your faders at all sorts of different levels.

Here's how I do it:
1- Set faders to unity. Don't touch 'em until the show.*
2- Move your gain knobs until you have a rough mix. Ignore your meters, unless you've got something peaking out.
3- Continue to refine your mix at the gain knobs as the band (or singers, etc.) continue to rehearse. EQ, compress, dial in Aux mixes, etc. as you go.
4- Come show time, you know you'll start out all your faders at 0 (see step 1). Start the show and mix with the faders where you get much finer control in the "unity neighborhood."
*One exception is if you know you'll need more than 10 dB of headroom at some point in the show... in that case, start it out a bit lower (say -5 or -10).

[MillburyAuditorium]

Our gain levels are usually around 3/4 way, and for some reason, turning the main slider and channel slider to the suggested maximum level, it is usually exactly what we want :P

But of course different voices etc etc, so it is changed all the time.

[AlexD]

Hmm. Just wondering if there was other tectonics out there that I might want to try, always good to have a bit of variety

[SHARYNF]

Originally Posted by Dillon

AlexD-
Your technique is the defacto standard for most folks in the recording world. You are maximizing your signal-to-noise ratio, getting the most dynamic range possible out of each input.

The drawbacks to this technique are as follows:
*you get a lot less room for fine adjustment when you are running your cowbell at -30 on the fader where a 5mm move will swing the level by 10dB or more, while at unity you'll only change the level by 2 or 3 dB. This reduces your ability to refine the details your mix.
*you have no idea where to start from. Since your triangle, bass drum, and vocalist all are set to the same level (via differing gains) you will now be running your faders at all sorts of different levels.

Here's how I do it:
1- Set faders to unity. Don't touch 'em until the show.*
2- Move your gain knobs until you have a rough mix. Ignore your meters, unless you've got something peaking out.
3- Continue to refine your mix at the gain knobs as the band (or singers, etc.) continue to rehearse. EQ, compress, dial in Aux mixes, etc. as you go.
4- Come show time, you know you'll start out all your faders at 0 (see step 1). Start the show and mix with the faders where you get much finer control in the "unity neighborhood."
*One exception is if you know you'll need more than 10 dB of headroom at some point in the show... in that case, start it out a bit lower (say -5 or -10).

There are two schools of thought here to consider

An alternative is to set the gain so that the inputs are at the proper meter level or say ) 0db. The advantage of this is, if you are using Inserted processing, then you are sending a standard level to the inserted processor, and also if you are trying to mix monitors from FOH than you have a good starting place.

There is a school of thought that likes to see the relative position of the faders reflect what you want the mix to sound like, for instance back up vocals are at a visible level below the lead etc.

There are extremes where people attempt to mix the entire program just using the gain trims.

it really is a lot to do with preferences. There was a school of thought that having the faders all zero'd out made it easy to move with a cue to a correct level, and there is something to be said for this. On the other hand on a digital mixer with recall, this is not as important.

Basically you don't want your input to be "down in the mud" or at a point where if you need to bring up an input you are going to start over driving.

If you look at where the input trim came from the idea was to set a level for the INPUT to the preamp that provided a good signal to noise ratiom and did not over drive the input, the fader was then used for setting the relative levels of the mix (this method typically used input metering) Mackie in their literature pushed pretty strongly for the set the faders to zero and adjust the trim.

it does come down to a matter of preference and also how you are using the system and if you are using monitors fed off the input preamps vs a split to a different mixer and if you are using a rack of external processing

Sharyn

[museav]

Very good summaries. One often overlooked aspect is summing. If you route multiple channels to a Group or Master bus then the resulting level is the sum of those and is typically higher. But on many consoles any bus metering is after the related fader or level control, so keep in mind that for a Master or Group level that if you see +10dB levels and the fader is at -20, then the level on the bus may be +30dB and would be clipping on many consoles. In that case you may want to turn down the inputs.

Some people do this in advance, if they have two mics that may pick up the same or similar sounds they then set those inputs for -3dB, if it's four mics then set the input levels for -6dB, etc. The same for stereo summed to mono, you may want the individual inputs at -3dB, this way the signals combine back to a nominal 0 level. Just another approaching for some gain structure aspects of a console.

[mixmaster]

I mix from the faders.

step 1. cue up the channel so you can see the input on the meters. Adjust the gain (trim) knob to bring the input level to unity or (zero db on some boards). The purpose of this adjustment is to set the level of of the incoming signal to something that is low enough to avoid clipping the board and hot enough to not have signal to noise issues. Wildly dynamic sources can be set a little lower to avoid clipping the input, or insert a compressor. Setting the gains by putting the fader at 0 and adjusting the gain knob completely ignores the intended purpose of the control. Having sufficient signal is also important for AUX sends. If your gain is to low, you never get enough send out of your aux and end up having to crank something up elsewhere. Lack of signal also affects the EQ, since the EQ boosts or cuts by dbs. Boosting 3 db of a little signal results in less change than boosting 3 db of a hotter signal, which ultimately gives you more control at the channel EQ. Unless something drastic happens, once I get the gain set, I usually don't mess with it during the show, especially if I'm doing mons from the house as the slightest change in the gain is usually audible to the performers.

Step 2. Now that all your inputs are hitting the board at about the same level, set your output level. Target output levels should be sufficient to drive the next device in line to about 0db (unity) at it's input. On and on down the chain until you get noise out of you speakers that is appropriate for your ears. If you find that you are having to crank a gain stage above unity somewhere, then there's something turned down to low somewhere upstream, or you don't have enough rig for your gig.

Step 3. Now that your systems' gain structure is properly set, based on the electronic needs of your components, you can go back and adjust the faders to taste. In a properly set system, I find I do most mixing beween -10 and 0 with headroom enough to push solos to +5 without overdriving an output or overloading a mix bus. It's also much much easier to make fine adjustments with a 100mm fader instead of those dinky little knobs.

It has been my experience, time and time and time again, systems that have a properly set gain structure are much easier to build a mix with, and usually result in more pleasant shows. Times that I remember using systems with poorly set gain structure, I also remember fighting the mix at every song and generally poorer sounding, less pleasant nights.

Setting gains by having the fader at unity and turning up a gain till something "sounds good" is also assuming that the rest of the system is set appropriately. Doing this on a system that is not big enough could result in gains being set to high, trying to get an adequate level. It seems safer to me to make sure that you gain structure is set properly for that particular piece of equipment rather than set a control for your soundboard based on you amp settings.

Matt

[AlexD]

So you are getting even control over all your gain and using faders for fine adjustment. I’m using the gain to get as much single as possible before degrading the sound quality and then using the faders (that were set at 0) to set the level that is appropriate, even if that means going down to lower than 10db. I do this for max control but then I have been using 60mm faders witch doesn’t give me a large amount of control over fine adjustment. But ye you way dose sound like it would work better for getting control over the entire board.

[SHARYNF]

Originally Posted by museav

Very good summaries. One often overlooked aspect is summing. If you route multiple channels to a Group or Master bus then the resulting level is the sum of those and is typically higher. But on many consoles any bus metering is after the related fader or level control, so keep in mind that for a Master or Group level that if you see +10dB levels and the fader is at -20, then the level on the bus may be +30dB and would be clipping on many consoles. In that case you may want to turn down the inputs.

Some people do this in advance, if they have two mics that may pick up the same or similar sounds they then set those inputs for -3dB, if it's four mics then set the input levels for -6dB, etc. The same for stereo summed to mono, you may want the individual inputs at -3dB, this way the signals combine back to a nominal 0 level. Just another approaching for some gain structure aspects of a console.

Brad
You bring up an interesting dilemma
In the case you pointed out, since most boards are set up so that you can feed all the inputs to LR out, then IF all the faders were set to 0db than the output bus would be overloaded? I am assuming that you are talking about the post fader output fed to the bus, and that the metering is POST the output bus fader LR or AUX or ...

Or say for Monitors when using say auxes, then unless the inputs are turned down merely setting the aux out fader is going to cause the same problem

I'd be curious to hear your experience say with the Yamaha Family 03d 02r 01v96 etc etc. and the usual Analog Mackie/A&H etc

What you are point out might be the route of problems some folks have where they set the input levels high for low noise and then use the output faders for over all level.
This information could imply that setting the faders to 0db would NOT be recommended, but that they should be set to number of faders x3 db less Ie 8 faders typically set to 0db would in fact be set to -24db if they were all being sent to the same LR output

Sharyn