Overkill?

[TassieBogan]

Our college is doing a production of Les Miserables in mid march. Obviously for a show of this magnitude, there is no such thing as a small setup. Currently, we're going to be using 25 radio mics, at least 4 shotguns, and then we have to mic up the orchestra. For this I was planning on getting a Midas Verona 400, a 40 channel mixer with 8 aux busses, 8 matrixs, and 8 sub-mixes.
But would the better option be to get a smaller Midas Venice 320 and sort of Daisy Chain it with our existing 24 Channel studiomaster which has shite sound quality and dodgy everything?

The Verona is $1000 per week to hire, wheras the Venice is $720, from the Tasmanian sound and lighting company Production Works. http://www.productionworks.com.au/

Opinions?

[SketchyCroftPpl]

Well I guess one big question is how much do you have to spend and how much do you care about the sound quality? I mean if its fine to have stuff sound not so hot and everything and its not going to be much way more complicated to daisychain them then you might wanna save 300 bucks for something else, or see how much just a totally new soundboard would be to buy and see if you can get the TD to spring for it not just for this show but all the ones after. If you really want it to sound great though and everything then it might be worth it for you to spend the extra 300 and have the quality ... how many weeks would you have to be renting it for? Just one?
~Nick

[SketchyCroftPpl]

Well I guess one big question is how much do you have to spend and how much do you care about the sound quality? I mean if its fine to have stuff sound not so hot and everything and its not going to be much way more complicated to daisychain them then you might wanna save 300 bucks for something else, or see how much just a totally new soundboard would be to buy and see if you can get the TD to spring for it not just for this show but all the ones after. If you really want it to sound great though and everything then it might be worth it for you to spend the extra 300 and have the quality ... how many weeks would you have to be renting it for? Just one?
~Nick

[SketchyCroftPpl]

Sorry I don't know why it posted that twice, it hung for a moment but then went though fine. Sorry
~Nick

[blsmn]

I guess the answer to the question would depend on just what exactly you mean by overkill. For what you are doing, 40 channels will definitely not be overkill - when you take a look at what you are trying to accomplish 40 channels may just barely be enough if not too few. As far as my personal preference I would prefer to have everything on one console rather than daisy chaining two together - especially given the stated condition of the studiomater you have. Now, is it worth renting a Verona if the rest of your sound system is not up to snuff? That is another variable - you did not mention what type of amps, processing, speakers, outboard gear you are using. If they are as suspect as the studiomaster they will definitely not compliment a higher end board like the Verona.

Just a suggestion here though - if you are using that many radio mics, it will be well worth it for you to rent a console that has the capability of mute scenes. I know the Verona has mute groups but I'm not sure it has mute scenes. Mute scenes will allow you to concentrate on the actual sound of the show without having to worry about which mics need to be muted or unmuted for the upcoming scene change. Need to mute mics 1,2,3,7,9,11, and 15 and unmute mics 5,6,8,10, 20 and 21? Program that in as a mute scene and when the time comes push one button and it happens. It will make your life and experience much happier, and take away having to scramble to make sure everything happens in a professional manner with no accidental off-stage utterances.

[jedijeffp]

My $0.02 US (and then some)

Radio Microphones: I assume this means wireless lavalier style mics.
You note you're using 25 of them. Les Miz has 9 primary characters:
Jean Valjean
Javert
Fantine
Marius
Enjolras
Eponine / Child Eponine
Cosette / Child Cosette
Madame Thénardier
Gavroche
I could see utilizing another 5 or 6 to be passed around among supporting
cast, but 25 total seems like a lot. What other characters are getting
wireless mics? Which scene has the most of those characters in it
simultaneously? Or which 2 scenes if there is a fast scene change
between them? Reducing this number will simplify frequency selection
and reduce the number of input channels required.

Mixer: Assuming you do need all 25 wireless mics, a 24 channel mixer isn't going to
work. So you do need something in addition to the studiomaster. How long were you
planning on renting for? I'm not familiar with the Midas brand of mixers, but
a Mackie SR32*4 runs less than $2,000 US (the 8 bus 32*8 is about $4,000 US).
This has a total of 28 mono inputs which is enough to handle your 25 wireless mics.
If you can cut down to 24 wireless mics, you can run both the wireless and shotgun
mics on this mixer. Whether you plug the output of this into a channel on the
Studiomaster, or connect this to your mains and run the output of the studiomaster
into one of the stereo channel strips on the Mackie is your choice
based on ease of use and how the orchestra will be miced.

Orchestra microphones: This depends on the size of the orchestra, and the size of
the orchestra pit area. For a very small pit orchestra, 1 mic per instrument may be
appropriate to deliver a bigger sound. For more instruments divide them into logical
sections and mic the sections as a group. Then provide "solo" mics for instrumentalists
who have solos. Depending on available mics and channels you can use 1 "solo" mic per
instrumental section miced, or 1 solo mic per geographic section of the orchestra pit
with sound techs available in the pit to help with cues and mic positioning.


That's a lot said to really mean this. Drive the requirements from the inputs to the outputs. Work with the director to determine how many wireless mics are needed, and how many are a nice to have. Attend the rehearsal when the actors do their blocking. This will give you an idea on how to use area mics when characters will be grouped in one area. Talk to the music director to find out how large of a pit orchestra is being used, and how many soloists there will be. Use this information to pull together your total inputs and subgroups. Leave a stereo channel available to play a CD for background music while people are taking their seats and during intermission. Based on these inputs and subgroups you'll be able to determine the mixer configuration needed for this performance. Price out both cost of rental and cost of purchase. Document it all. If you have it all planned out on paper it will be easier to justify cost as well as to quantify what will be lost if something is changed.

Good Luck,
Jeff

P.S. I'm not a Mackie salesperson. Mackie is a board brand I am familiar with and was comfortable with as an example in this situation. Any good quality board can be substituted in the above.

[The_Guest]

Three words: Live Is Dangerious. In theater apps I always try to stay away from daisy chaining consoles, esepecially if I'm running lavs on both consoles. In a band situation its a little easier to figure out balanced levels. But it's nice to have a familar gain structure on one console. I had the decesion to either expand a 24ch mackie w/a side car this summer, but I decided not to because it was theater. It's way too formal and consistent demanding environment to risk. If you say this show is going to be big, get the Verona. And the larger faders will come in handy dealing with those 25 lavs and the pit. Sounds like you'll have a lot of open mics, that extra $300 will buy you a stress free mixing environment. If you can afford the Midas, get it, premium preamp, the EQ is just fantastc. It's so surgical, yet musical at same time. It cuts through anything. There is a reason why the Midas costs more, they're amazing consoles. Forgot the mackie, you'll make your life so much easier with the Midas.

[scarlco]

We use two Yamaha PM3500's - one is the main board, with all our RF's and sound effects. The other is setup as a sidecar, and holds the orchestra and house music / God mic's / prerecorded anouncements. We patch the sidecar via it's VCA outs to the VCA in's on the main board, which has proven to be pretty stable. I wouldn't want to have actor mics on both boards, though. Could get confusing. But the orchestra doesn't really change throughout the show. Basically, the levels on the sidecar are pretty much static, and the work is done on the main board,

[Inaki2]

Consider the Les Miz has 2 CADAC consoles totalling 65 inputs or so, a Yamaha O3D for FX returns and a small CADAC unit for SIM, Stage Manager and other miscelaneous inputs.
As previously mentioned, daisy chaining is not a good idea. Besides the danger of connections, etc, when you get into different brands and qualities you may get impedances issues, leading to noise. MIDAS is really awesome, I'd use the Verona, I'm really pleased with that console. I'm using a Venice in like 8 hours. Nice board, but if you look at it, its more aimed for the small club setup. It takes a bit of fidging to use it in a musical situation, especially the Aux section.
You could always just rent an XL4 :D

[Inaki2]

http://www.inakirosenberg.com/galler...?album=2&pos=3

MIDAS Legend and me...