Reflecting sound for "canned" orchestra!

[jkowtko]

I'm interested in hearing thoughts on this ...

For our upcoming production we are playing a CD track for the orchestra. This is the first time our theater has done this, but because the resident music director is directing the play, he wants to try recorded music instead of hiring a separate conductor and orchestra.

I have two SRM450s to "play" the orchestra. The music director would like indirect sound, and has chosen for speaker placement the backside of a large cart around center stage, with two luan panels 5-6 feet behind the cart on which we will "bounce" the sound to reflect back towards the audience.

Is this gonna work? I know with a real orchestra you will usually have no problem lifting the sound out of the pit or behind a baffle wall, but how will it sound with a couple of speakers?

Thanks. John

[SHARYNF]

the saga of John and the Hillbarn has been really interesting.

This approach is totally crazy. I have seen you trying to provide the best sound system for this facility, asking great questions, searching out details and suggestions.

Unfortunately the director simply does not understand how sound, and direct and indirect reflection works. You will have a horrible mess . If he does not want the speakers to be noticeable you can make a thin acoustic transparent covering so that they are not visible.

using reflective panels to correct for room effects, or attempt to direct sound is one thing, as a compliment to direct sound. To think that a think a thin panel will work the same way is a serious misunderstanding as to how it works


Here are a few points

Say you put your speakers on the card, and then place a panel behind them, if you look a the speaker at best as a flashlight, and the panel as a mirror, just draw out for your self where most of the sound will be reflected to... if you angel the panel back the sound will be reflected up to the roof,, of you angle the panel down, the sound will be reflected down to the floor.

A lot of the acoustic treatment effects work based on the psychoacoustic concept that the first sound heard is considered the loudest, if there is a slight delay, so in using reflective panels most of the time you are trying to gring the acoustic energy rising up from a music group down and out to the audience by hanging the panel high up angled forward. Most of the sound is still direct. Around the Stage area you have reflective surfaces for called early t Reflection which again ENHANCES the sound, not replaces it.


A small thin panel as the main source of the sound will transmit not only some of the sound but also vibrations from the panel and color the sound.

Bose tried this back in the old days with the 901, where they placed 8 speakers angled to the wall, and one facing forward, in an attempt to get a lot of reflective sound and open up the sound stage. Some people liked it most pro's hated it. Even then it was based on transfering the audio to the walls of the room, not a thin panel.

Oh well

Sharyn

[jkowtko]

Yeah, I remember the good ol' 901s ... but the 802s (a 901 turned around with the 8 speakers facing directly at you) sounded much better for PA. Our college our theater used three stacked pairs of 802s to play dolby sound at the movie theater and they were loud and crisp ... we also had a DJ who did the same with two pairs of 802s .. again great loud sound for a dance party.

On the other side of the acoustic spectrum, I just found out that our lighting guy's son works for Meyer up here in Emeryville, and he has been by the theater in the past and commented on the strategy of using several of their smaller drivers hidden away up in the light rack. Would be great if we had the $$$ (which we do not) ... who knows, maybe I can talk Meyer into using us as a beta test site ...?

So, anyway, for the show I'll try the reflection strategy. The panels are angled slightly to bounce the sound out to the sides ... we'll see how it sounds, but I'll be ready to scramble to re-locate the speakers for more direct positioning. Worst case, we'll use the house speakers, which sound pretty good by themselves (just doesn't sound like a band coming from backstage).

Thanks. John

[avkid]

There is no way you are going to fool anybody into that there is a live orchestra.
It sounds as if that is the director's goal, correct?

[jkowtko]

Basically ... or at least to give the audience the "orchestra" experience vs. the "boombox" experience.

I wouldn't totally discount the idea though. Many years ago I had a nice pair of B&W loudspeakers in my home, through which you could swear the band was playing live from the living room when you were elsewhere in the house.

Conversely, I've been to professional theater productions where the orchestra is miked and the sound mixed so well and pumped through the PA so that it sounds like it's canned.

Our particular soundtrack is from a company that works with MTI to provide soundtracks to those who need them. The mix itself is definitely a studio mix -- you don't get that "roughness" of the percussion and tempo that we get live. So anyone with any sort of a trained ear will know that it's a sound track. But at least to get the sound coming from where the band would normally be will I think create a better listening experience than piping it through the house PA which "surrounds" the audience. Then the only question is, how clear, balanced and "full" can we get the band sound.

[jbeutt]

I've just been lurking for a while, but this post made me want to jump in with a "what the hell"?

I'm all for experimenting, but this doesn't seem like a prudent use of time. You're saying that by using these panels, you hope to somehow recreate the "feel" of a live orchestra, but I can't seem to understand the reasoning that would explicitly support that idea.

Maybe it's my own misunderstanding, but what exactly is the mechanism involved in the project that will supposedly transform the sound to sound more live? Like Sharyn said, it seems like the director's misunderstanding of audio is leading to a plan that will be a mess. It seems like a conceptual plan without much basis or evidence.

Maybe try to get your Meyer contact to throw an opinion in, though.

[jkowtko]

"I" don't hope to ... it's the tech director and music director that are hoping.

Our music director has had literally decades of professional recording, conducting and performing experience (he's worked for Lucas, etc) and is a very accomplished drummer, so I don't want to necessarily dismiss one of his ideas until I research it a bit. (... and you guys are obviously providing me with some very useful feedback here!)

So the vote seems to be hands down, "you're smokin' something" ... which means I'll be scouting around backstage to locate an alternate setup for the band speakers in the what-seems-likely event that these don't sound good in the requested configuration.

Thanks. John

[dbaxter]

Have you thought about using the speakers pointed directly, but enhancing the sound with playing it through a computer with 5.1 surround capabilities? The newer sound cards (e.g. Sound Blaster Audigy) come with software like "EAX" that will synthesize a more lifelike sound. Take the three outputs from the 5.1 card and amplify them separately if you need to. Or take the output from a Bose CineMate processor.

[jkowtko]

I could to that. In fact, the (low-end) DVD player that was sent to us along with the music track has 5.1 surround generation capabilities.

Alternatively, our SCS PC has 6 outputs (going to 8) and I've already tested out playing house speakers at -20db to accompany the orchestra speakers. I also tried starting the track at the orchestra and slowly pan to fill the house, which gives a nice crescendo effect for some of the tracks.

However, this won't sound like an orchestra in the backstage area, so my first attempt is to just get decent sound out of the speakers coming from backstage.

[jbeutt]

I'm curious what is supposed to happen with this technique. Specifically what process or mechanism would generate this effect.

My feeling--and this is by no means quantified--is that simply reorienting the speakers can't give the effect of a live orchestra. Beyond not actually enhancing the sound acoustically, it can't recreate the fundamental thing that makes an orchestra sound live. This, I believe, is the many different relative delays that come from having a number of instruments in a space.

It gives a sense of spatial depth having all these minute delays between instruments. No matter how you disperse the audio signal from a speaker, it's all the same program coming from one or two sources. I think although both sound like an orchestra, our brains are very good at deciphering the difference based on these delays.
Nowww, if you were to send instrument submixes to different speakers, I could imagine getting a better sense of reality from the sound. Like sending percussion one place and strings to another. Even just doing some panning could help, but I imagine that you tracks are already mixed down. If not, that would definitely be my suggestion.

But again, as this wouldn't appear to work using the reflective thing, I'm wondering what your audio guy's take on this is and why he thinks it would be effective.