Hazers vs. Dry Ice--Health Risk

[TheTheaterImp]

Hi,
I'm a Performance Production freshmen at Cornish College of the Arts in Seattle, Washington and I'm doing a report on the possible health risks of exposure to smoke and haze. Singers especially are wary of singing when a smoke machine or a hazer is ebing used on stage and they will only let them use dry ice.

I was just looking for opinions that I may use in my report. Whether they be different brands that work better or anything.

This is all ver preliminary and I may ask people to fill out a questionaire later on.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thank you,
Michael DellaValle

[drumbum]

Each effect is meant for something different. Yes, hazers can mess with a vocalists throat, but it all depends on the hazer, the juice used . . . DF-50's are standards in concerts, though i have seem a lot of LeMatre g300s and h300's, though the radience has started to make is way in as well . . . fills a giant club here with a very even haze, didnt even know it was there. Water based haze juice is always a plus.

Now as far as foggers go, dry ice is always pretty much harmless . . . . until a choreographer decides to have dancers come up from a thick fog . . . thing to remeber, dry ice is CO2, so you cant breathe in it, so the dancers passed out . . . funny . . .dumb, but funny.

[Mayhem]

I have heard rumours that if a machine burns the fluid too hot it will become carcinogenic. I do not know how true this is but in general, they are supposed to be pretty safe. I personally wouldn’t want to be breathing the output in for extended periods of time. Always worries me when I see people inhale a mouthful of fog so that they can then blow smoke rings.

I know that asthmatics get worried by the smoke but I have never seen anyone have an asthma attack induced by the use of a smoke machine. Some people cough but often that is a reflex action.

There were also some older machines that were collected up and destroyed some time back because they were found to be carcinogenic. I cannot recall the exact circumstances but someone else may be able to comment.

We were designed to breath in Oxygen, so anything that competes with oxygen in bonding to haemoglobin can’t be good for you.

Why don’t you do a survey of people and see what their perceptions of smoke/haze use is. I think it would be a pretty interesting survey to conduct. Would be even better to have one sample group coming from an non-cigarette smoking venue/gig and the other coming from a smoking venue/gig. My bet is there is a more negative result from the smoking group.

[BillESC]

Check out the White Paper published by U.S.I.T.T. on the subject of fog and haze on performers.

It will give you all the information and research you need.

[jwl868]

There is also a couple of reports on the Actors Equity Website, in their Document Library, under "Safe and Sanitary"

http://www.actorsequity.org/home.html


Joe

[jonhirsh]

Here is my opinion based on my reaserch.


Smoke machine

glycol based fluid (common name water based fog fluid) it makes your throat dry and causes caughing, there are no long term effets proven yet. but there are short term effects. such as dry throat iratated eyes nose and throat.


hazer

oil cracker. - leaves a mess but is realitvly ok for the body no proven long term effects. does not cause dry throat. but makes a mess for the sound and video guys.

glycol based fluid (common name water based haze fluid) it makes your throat dry and causes caughing, there are no long term effets proven yet. but there are short term effects. such as dry throat iratated eyes nose and throat.

there is no such thing as a water based haze fluid because it wouldnt work there needs to be glycol which is an acahol in it. and we all know that alchol drys out your skin and since your breathing it in it drys your throat.


Dry ice.

this is a grey area in my opinion this is the most lethal of them all dry ice is pure C02 which if not used properly could kill your entire audiance and those sitting in the orchestra pit. there is a huge misconception that because something is natural that it wont kill you well they are wrong the most deadly things are natural elements. dry ice has short term and long term effects

short term - dizyness, fatigue, light headedness

Long term - Brain damage, Death

i do not understand why people demand dry ice is safe it is not ventilation is the key to any dry ice or nitrogen fog effect and theatres esspecialy ones in comunity centers and schools are netorius for bad venting. so i think you need to reflect this in your paper


JH

[Mayhem]

Bill - do you have a link to that paper at all?

I neglected to comment on CO2 but Jon is on the ball with his comments. People have been killed (recently) in compartment fires where CO2 has been used for fire controll.

In fire control, CO2 dispurses the oxygen, starving the fire. If you have ever had to put out a fire using CO2 you will know that you have to keep a good spray on it for a decent period of time.

In a confined area (such as the engine room in which several Navy crew died), the oxygen supply would have been finite and consumed not only by the fire but the crew as well. The introduction of CO2 would have then made it hard (if not impossible) to breath in the remaining oxygen in the room.

However, I doubt whether it is as big a problem in a large area like a theatre, where you can move away from the source of CO2. It would be a problem if it was forced at your face for an period of time.

Otherwise, its use would be much more regulated. Although, this is based purely upon my understanding of the use of CO2.

[jonhirsh]

The size of the area isn’t the issue its weather it’s ventilated. A large room with co2 is just as bad as a small one. The only difference is the concentration of co2 and Oxygen atoms it might not kill you but could seriously affect your health and not just short term were talking long term damage.


If you don’t believe me just as one other person said lay on the floor while running a dry ice machine, see how light headed you get. Eventually you will pass out.

If you need the effect fine but double check the ventilation in the room make sure the pit is protected and the orchestra seats in the audience are not going to be affected.

Dry ice is not a safe alternative it is merely another option, dry ice is regulated in certain parts of the country it has warning labels when sold to the public and should come with an instruction sheet. These warn you of the effects of dry ice but people hear ice and think water they see safety.

its interesting the reactions of coughing you get when you put on a hazer, but dry ice is the only one that is really suffocating you, people just whisper to there friend oh I know what that is its dry ice I bought some for my son Johnny last Halloween. They don’t cough or get up and leave.

It’s a strange phenomenon

[jwl868]

To get information on exposure to glycols (and mineral oils), go to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) website and search the site http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/homepage.html ). NIOSH is under the Center of Disease Control. NIOSH does research and develops exposure guidelines. (There may also be guidelines from the American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists [ACGIH].) Other agencies (for example OSHA) use NIOSH guidelines in their enforcement rules.

The AEA study, "Health Effects Evaluation of Theatrical Smoke, Haze, and Pyrotechnics" (June 2000) (available at the AEA website) concluded in part:

"No evidence of serious health effects was found to be associated with exposure to any of the theatrical effects evaluated in this study". [Italics are mine.]

"Peak exposures to elevated localized air concentrations following a release of glycol smoke are associated with increased reporting of respiratory, throat, and nasal symptoms, and findings of vocal cord inflammation."

"Elevated exposures to mineral oil haze are associated with increased reporting of throat symptoms."

"…it is recommended that exposures to these materials by Actors performing in musical productions not exceed peak or ceiling concentrations of 40 mg/cubic meter for glycols and 25 mg/cubic meters for mineral oil. Time weighted average exposures to mineral oil should be kept below 5 mg/cubic meter…"


I skimmed through the AEA paper and the focus appears to be on actors, rather than stage crew. The study was conducted at the request of the AEA and League of American Theaters and Producers. I suspect that stage crew is more likely to experience long-term exposure primarily because a venue could perform a series of productions, each with fog/haze effects, but with a different group of actors for each production. An actor could go from show to show with varying degrees of fog/haze, if any. Not to mention the fact the stage crew will be more likely to be exposed for every use, while only some actors are exposed. (Actors/crew on a long tour, of course, would have the greatest total exposure.)

(Carbon dioxide / dry ice was not evaluated in the AEA study because none of the shows involved appeared to be using it.)


Joe

[Mayhem]

Thanks for the links Joe.

Jon - I hear what you are saying and I agree - hence the use of the word finite, implicating a lack of ventilation. However, the ability to move away from the source is just as important as ventilation. Someone being force fed CO2 in an open field is just as screwed as someone in an unventilated room if they cannot move away from the source.

Had to use a CO2 fire extinguisher to put out a motorcycle stunt rider some months ago and had to be real careful of not filling his helmet with it. This was in an open air arena with a decent breeze blowing.